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Well, Nova does a base damage scale of 3, and can reach 6. According to my notes, a power of radius 25' (Nova) should have a recharge of 27.4375 per damage scale given Damage:Recharge Formula... so anywhere from about 90 seconds to 180 seconds (depending upon the value given to the % damage). The actual recharge is 360 seconds. For 360 seconds, it should do something closer to 12 damage scale.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Where's the thread from August/this fall on this? Can't quite recall when it was, but we had a big one where we really hashed this out. I point that out because the posts and Arcanaville have all the math and logic in there for why the crashing nukes aren't doing enough for how much they punish the user. I would hazard to say that the current huge "Blasters in modern COH" thread over in the archetype forums has some on this as well.
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Lightning Rod has a 90 second recharge, deals scale 2.55 damage in 20' and an extra 1.05 DS in 3', making it vaguely proportional to the value given in the formula (a 90 second 20' aoe should have a damage total of 3.69, so the total damage is about right... except that a good portion of it is only in 3'). Ditto Shield Charge. And neither of those have crashes.
Also, the point that ArcanaVille likes to make is this: Tier 9 armor powers make you invincible for 3 minutes in exchange for a similar crash. Is a single variable damage aoe attack worth as much as 3 whole minutes of invincibility?
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Lightning Rod does *MORE* damage than Nova [in a tight radius]? And it goes to the people who are 6+ times tougher than blasters?
I remember now why I gave up on nuke discussions now.
/e goes looking for a puppy to kick
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I always make fun of the LR + SC "nuke" and why blasters need a revision.
If I want to play a Nuke blaster, I'll just pull out the old broken ElM/SD scrapper and nuke every spawn. Lightning Rod + Shield Charge brings the Nuke back to blasters except its a scrapper. 
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Quote:
Yep - this is my take on it too. |
Originally Posted by newchemicals
I just consider Judgement to be my "blaster nuke" now. Its up and ready to fire more often, its ranged, hits more targets and has no crash. It does less damage so what? At least it doesn't have 10 seconds of no end + time to retoggle a bunch of stuff.
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As for the less damage part, I find that Judgement along with my T2 AoE still
wipes out nearly everything - while still leaving me able to deal with a near
dead boss and/or a couple lucky stragglers.
It's long past the time the devs should re-evaluate blaster nukes. A so-called
"signature power" that rarely gets taken or used anymore is indicative of a
problem that deserves attention imho.
Regards,
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Quote:
Its not that bad. In the center radius, Lightning Rod only does about 3.6 DS, but it also does that on the 1.0 mod (for Scrappers: its independently balanced for Brutes, Tankers, and Scrappers) which means relative to Nova it actually does something a little closer to 3.2. Nova averages 4.875 DS. So lightning rod is only about 66% of the average damage of Nova.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
...waitaminute.
Lightning Rod does *MORE* damage than Nova [in a tight radius]? And it goes to the people who are 6+ times tougher than blasters? |
With no crash and cycling four times faster and activating faster and with a built in teleport. In other words, psychotically bad, but not as bad as it could be. If it outdamaged Nova also, then it would be as bad as the developers could possible make the situation.
You want to be depressed, compare Nova to Spring attack. Yes, I said Spring attack. The scrapper version does effective 1.5 DS at the center and 1.0 DS in a larger radius. It recharges three times faster than Nova and costs only 13.52 end with no crash. Its target DPS over cycle time is about 92% of Nova and its outer DPS over cycle time is about 61% of Nova. And its a power pool attack.
And if that doesn't chamber a round for you: the blaster version is weaker than the Scrapper version, because the Blaster version uses the melee modifier. Spring attack, which has a range of 60 feet, uses the melee modifier for Blasters. So not only are melee archetypes allowed to benefit from using the higher melee modifier for ranged attacks, blasters are occasionally penalized into using their lower melee modifier for ranged attacks.
Spring attack did even more damage in beta - a lot more. It was reduced when I pointed out the original version was arguably better than lightning rod. I don't fault the devs for wanting to give the players a nice AoE attack in the power pools, and add some flair to the leaping pool. That's all good. But why is it so easy to make a powerful Spring attack, but so difficult to say "maybe the nukes should all be really useful." More thought was placed into making spring attack worth taking in a couple months than has been spent on the same for Nova in eight years.
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Spring attack also has a 2/3 chance of knock down, thats right KNOCK DOWN not Knock Back. This means it has better mitigation than almost all the crashing nukes and absolutely all the non crashing nukes.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You want to be depressed, compare Nova to Spring attack. Yes, I said Spring attack. The scrapper version does effective 1.5 DS at the center and 1.0 DS in a larger radius. It recharges three times faster than Nova and costs only 13.52 end with no crash. Its target DPS over cycle time is about 92% of Nova and its outer DPS over cycle time is about 61% of Nova. And its a power pool attack.
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Knock-back is actually awesome mitigation for ranged attackers because it often leads to rag doll weirdness. I've had fights where an enemy would rag doll into some weird geometry and never get back up.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Spring attack also has a 2/3 chance of knock down, thats right KNOCK DOWN not Knock Back. This means it has better mitigation than almost all the crashing nukes and absolutely all the non crashing nukes.
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Quote:
The +defense combined with the chance for KD in Hail of Bullets may be better. It is also hard to discount the fact that Rain of Arrows can often be cast outside LoS (and with a bit of range slotting, outside of attack range). I do love Spring Attack on my Fire/Dark blaster though, helps keep them in the Rain of Fire (I just wish Spring Attack did less damage while recharging MUCH faster).
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Spring attack also has a 2/3 chance of knock down, thats right KNOCK DOWN not Knock Back. This means it has better mitigation than almost all the crashing nukes and absolutely all the non crashing nukes.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Quote:
To be fair, Nova's KB is 100% as is the mez effect in most crashing nukes, but except for the ragdoll weirdness MajorDecoy mentions (which is sometimes *very* weird: I have a tendency to Nova critters into the Philadelphia experiment) Nova's KB knocks them down for about 5 seconds and crashes my endurance for 20s. Spring attack knocks down two thirds of the targets and crashes the user not at all, so its mitigation is a lot more effective unless you only use Nova with crash management tools, like having a lot of blues and conserve power.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Spring attack also has a 2/3 chance of knock down, thats right KNOCK DOWN not Knock Back. This means it has better mitigation than almost all the crashing nukes and absolutely all the non crashing nukes.
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The part I laugh at is that Nova's defiance buff is about 10 seconds, while its endurance crash is 20 seconds. Now that's funny.
Only one crashing nuke actually incapacitates (in theory) the target for at least as long as it crashes the player, and that's thunderous blast (which amusingly nullifies the recovery of both the player and its targets for 20s). The only other one with an effect that lasts that long off the top of my head is Blackstar which crashes the player for 20s and debuffs the target's tohit for 20s, which is not the same thing as incapacitating it. Having no endurance or recovery for 20s is by almost any criteria worse than having -35% tohit.
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Dreadful Wail and Psychic Wail both have 11.92 second, mag 3 stuns. They should be mag 4 and 20 seconds since the only things likely to survive them won't be affected by mag 3.
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Quote:
EMP has a 22 second mag 3 hold with a 50% chance of mag 4 which holds bosses, it does not crash endurance, and it only suppresses recovery for 15 seconds, which is shorter than its mez duration. It doesn't deal damage (usually) but its mechanics are actually logically designed to be a panic button. You can still act (you still have end) and you will recover before the targets and you will take out a significant percentage of even boss-class targets.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
/e raises hand.
Dreadful Wail and Psychic Wail both have 11.92 second, mag 3 stuns. They should be mag 4 and 20 seconds since the only things likely to survive them won't be affected by mag 3. |
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Blaster version is a stun and it's in the Electric Epic. I have it on my Sonic/Ice/Elec.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
EMP has a 22 second mag 3 hold with a 50% chance of mag 4 which holds bosses, it does not crash endurance, and it only suppresses recovery for 15 seconds, which is shorter than its mez duration. It doesn't deal damage (usually) but its mechanics are actually logically designed to be a panic button. You can still act (you still have end) and you will recover before the targets and you will take out a significant percentage of even boss-class targets.
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Sirens > Frozen Aura > EMP (doesn't wake them up since it does no damage) > Dreadful Wail.
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Quote:
The mezing nukes are mag 3 so everything that survives the nuke, shrugs it off and kills you.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To be fair, Nova's KB is 100% as is the mez effect in most crashing nukes, but except for the ragdoll weirdness MajorDecoy mentions (which is sometimes *very* weird: I have a tendency to Nova critters into the Philadelphia experiment) Nova's KB knocks them down for about 5 seconds and crashes my endurance for 20s. Spring attack knocks down two thirds of the targets and crashes the user not at all, so its mitigation is a lot more effective unless you only use Nova with crash management tools, like having a lot of blues and conserve power
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More or less if you hit them with the nuke you don't need the mez and if you don't well it doesn't matter.
On my Eng/Eng blaster I tend to use my nuke very, very often... If I'm teaming with my wife on one of her almost uncountable /Kin 'trollers.
I've also found myself using it quite often as a fight-winner in the DA Incarnate missions: Void Judgement > Aim > BU > Nova.
Not a lot is left standing after that little crowd of powers, and if there is anything left standing, pop a blue, Conserve Power, and then whale on them with whatever other attacks seem appropriate.
However, having said all that, I don't use the nuke very often any other time, because the effective Endurance cost is INSANE compared to the power's utility. 100 End plus Rec x 20 seconds total Endurance cost. At its most basic level, that's 133 endurance (ignoring inherent Stamina). More if the character has improved recovery. Which is illogical - a character who recovers faster is hit harder by the crash than one with just basic levels of recovery. Now, if the nil recovery period were reduced by a factor incorporating the character's recovery, that would make sense. But as it stands, the combat effectiveness reduction makes it not worth using in the majority of the game.
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Quote:
Among the actual mez effects, only Nova's KB and Blizzard's KD are likely to be effective against a boss (if you count KB as a mez effect). But most of the crashing tier 9s have *some* mitigation that is effective against a boss. Just not enough in my opinion (Blackstar has -tohit, Thunderous Blast as drain and recovery debuff, Psychic Wail has recharge debuff).|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The mezing nukes are mag 3 so everything that survives the nuke, shrugs it off and kills you.
More or less if you hit them with the nuke you don't need the mez and if you don't well it doesn't matter. |
The crazy ones are Atomic Blast which does -DEF and Dreadful Wail which does -RES. Both fine debuffs if you had any endurance left to attack the targets with. These two suggest that those two nukes are intended only for being used in teams, or only being used if you can cheat your way out of the crash with insps. But trading mitigation for offensive debuff in a power that crashes you to zero and suppresses your recovery is quixotic to say the least.
(The remaining crashing nuke is Inferno, which at least sensibly tries to do more damage in exchange for having no mitigation - it has a legitimate shot at taking out Lts with its average damage without Build Up or Aim).
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Psychic wail, Dreadful Wail, Atomic blast, are Stun, Stun, Hold respectively. All mag 3. -Rech on Psychic wail is insult to injury.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Among the actual mez effects, only Nova's KB and Blizzard's KD are likely to be effective against a boss (if you count KB as a mez effect). But most of the crashing tier 9s have *some* mitigation that is effective against a boss. Just not enough in my opinion (Blackstar has -tohit, Thunderous Blast as drain and recovery debuff, Psychic Wail has recharge debuff).
The crazy ones are Atomic Blast which does -DEF and Dreadful Wail which does -RES. Both fine debuffs if you had any endurance left to attack the targets with. These two suggest that those two nukes are intended only for being used in teams, or only being used if you can cheat your way out of the crash with insps. But trading mitigation for offensive debuff in a power that crashes you to zero and suppresses your recovery is quixotic to say the least. (The remaining crashing nuke is Inferno, which at least sensibly tries to do more damage in exchange for having no mitigation - it has a legitimate shot at taking out Lts with its average damage without Build Up or Aim). |
Edit: Forgot Blizzard which does KD, and more damage than inferno and is ranged.
Quote:
When they were adding fifth powers to the epic pools, I really wanted Lightning Rod to be the one added to the Electric pool.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Spring attack did even more damage in beta - a lot more. It was reduced when I pointed out the original version was arguably better than lightning rod. I don't fault the devs for wanting to give the players a nice AoE attack in the power pools, and add some flair to the leaping pool. That's all good. But why is it so easy to make a powerful Spring attack, but so difficult to say "maybe the nukes should all be really useful." More thought was placed into making spring attack worth taking in a couple months than has been spent on the same for Nova in eight years.
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Lightning Rod... Shield Charge... Spring Attack... That whole line really bums me out. Judgment powers just rub it in.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Psychic wail, Dreadful Wail, Atomic blast, are Stun, Stun, Hold respectively. All mag 3. -Rech on Psychic wail is insult to injury.
Edit: Forgot Blizzard which does KD, and more damage than inferno and is ranged. |
Don't forget Defender Blizzard and Corruptor Blizzard (more with scourage) do the same damage as blaster Blizzard.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
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Quote:
All the more reason why Blaster nukes should have not only no end crash, but shouldn't have to give up anything for it either. Blasters already give up enough for the so called "superior damage".
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
...waitaminute.
Lightning Rod does *MORE* damage than Nova [in a tight radius]? And it goes to the people who are 6+ times tougher than blasters? I remember now why I gave up on nuke discussions now. /e goes looking for a puppy to kick |
Quote:
Corruptor Blizzard Scourges.
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
Don't forget Defender Blizzard and Corruptor Blizzard (more with scourage) do the same damage as blaster Blizzard.
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Well thought out. I'd support anything that would make the nukes worthwhile again. i never even take them anymore after the Incarnate system gave them to everyone.
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Originally Posted by Teeto_K
I'm gonna weigh in, because I agree with Infernus that the unique facets to the each problem make them worth their own discussion. It also gives more stage time to the less controversial topics, some chance for lesser issues to get the focus they deserve.
I'm also weighing in on THIS thread because I was about to make it, just with the title "Crashing Nukes?". The crashing nukes, blasters' "Ultimate", do a very unique thing. It's not sustainable AOE damage, even stinkers like Short Circuit will do more total damage than Thunderous Blast, over time. Instead, they stop the show. Everything falls down, and the blaster pays a hefty price in convenience. Using the nuke with regularity will demolish your inspiration tray on a team. Using it solo will feel like a waste, as you wait interminably between spawns for the crash to end. But on an as-needed basis, the crashing nukes are unparalelled. But I would argue, not good enough. Not in the context of Judgement nukes, Shield Charges and Lightning Rods. Not when stacked up to the power of Overcharges, Rains of Arrows, and Hails of Bullets. Their edge is eroding, and their enourmous penalties and massive recharge times are making "Second Best" arguably better. So what do we do? We have a couple directions the sliding scale runs in, and despite what one may think, it's not black and white. We can go both directions to varying degrees. Direction 1: Buff the nukes. There are 3 defining aspects to a crashing nuke. They deal massive damage. They cause their set's "signature" secondary effect in high magnitude. And they do so in a wide radius to large numbers of targets. All 3 of these elements can be increased. More damage. More or Better secondary effects. And a wider radius or higher target cap. Direction 2: Nerf the penalties. Crashing nukes come with a number of "Penalties" that make them "Worse" than a "Normal AOE attack" of their strength would be. They have an enourmously large recharge time. 6 minutes between attacks is an eternity. Even with +100% recharge slotting and +100% global recharge bonuses, that's still 2 minutes, but even if you manage that, you run into the other penalty. The endurance crash tries to take you out of action for 20 seconds. Mind you: The bosses are still alive. And if you're fighting above +2 (Say for instance, on an Incarnate Trial), the Leutennants are also. You can mitigate this with blue inspirations, but trying to do so on a team large enough to make your crashing nuke "worth it" will run your insp supply ragged. Both of these aspects could be reined in or completely eliminated, each to varying degrees. Shorter recharge, less severe crash, or completely eliminated. But again, the beauty is: Arguably, you could do some of both! Increase the benefits, while still eliminating some penalties. Remove the penalties, while still making the powers slightly better. So what do we do to nukes? I'm not sure what would make them the best and most useful, but there is a guiding principle to be considered when contemplating how to buff them. The Cottage rule. Which is to say: The people who currently have, use, and enjoy crashing nukes, do so because they like what they can do. I think that, above all else, we should not reduce that. I'm kind of against nerfs to the damage of nukes because of this. You're hurting the people who like them, and merely widening the target audience at best, if not merely shifting it. I think there's a lot of room for improvement without making nukes "So good that they need to be nerfed." But what kind of improvements? In my opinion, a quick and dirty fix would be: Remove the Crash, Keep the damage and effects the same, Reduce the recharge to 4 minutes, increase the radii to 35 feet, and the target cap to 24. Add a stun to nova and a moderate To-Hit debuff to Inferno. But if we're willing to keep the crash, there's the possibility of doing even MORE. And who doesn't like more? |
Honestly, just taking the crash out would make it a real t9 power. You could even up the End cost on the front end to balance it out a bit.