Godlike Characters


Aoleleb

 

Posted

Ok now this isn't a rant about characters who claim to be godlike and solve the worlds ills in one swoop of their mighty hand but more characters who happen to be Gods.

How does one play this without coming across as well...Godmoding.

I only have one character who could be considered Godlike and...well they're a throwaway character.

CatManFu has no backstory beyond that which was given to it by other people. Mainly that it randomly turns up in the most horrible, clashing, garish outfit known to mankind (note this isn't just hitting the random button, I go out of my way to make the outfit horrible) and makes comments about 'being fashionable' and gives horrible, horrible fashion advice to other people.

Some believe it to be the personification of bad fashion, others consider it to be an Eldritch abomination playing at trying to be a superhero but completely not grasping the concept at all. Sometimes its choice of outfit is so bad, that the normal human brain actually blinkers it from existence, Robots of course just prefer to shut off their optics...which is sensible.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU View Post
CatManFu has no backstory beyond that which was given to it by other people. Mainly that it randomly turns up in the most horrible, clashing, garish outfit known to mankind (note this isn't just hitting the random button, I go out of my way to make the outfit horrible) and makes comments about 'being fashionable' and gives horrible, horrible fashion advice to other people.
I have but one question.

Why would you want to do this terrible thing?

Do you simply hate us all, personally? On a very deep level?



In all seriousness I will try to formulate an actual response in my usual verbose fashion.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro View Post
I have but one question.

Why would you want to do this terrible thing?

Do you simply hate us all, personally? On a very deep level?



In all seriousness I will try to formulate an actual response in my usual verbose fashion.
It actually started as sort of a joke and has now grown into its own character, even if I only bring it out on rare occasions.

Oh yes CatManFu is most definitely an IT (it seems to be able to change gender and horrible outfit on a whim).


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Posted

I look at gods and superheroes as one and the same.

It just depends on the time whether they are called one or the other.

Just like Charlize Theron's character in Hancock says about how they used to be called gods and angels...and now people call them superheroes.


 

Posted

Its ok guys, I am here to use my unqiue brand of arrogence to answer this one.

You see this very topic, so long ago is what prompted my first lore character T'Keron valmaz. Yes I know I know you all hate me its ok.

You see one day I was playing one of my early D&D PC based characters when I came across this low lvl character who was being very vocal about being an end all be all god of death and chaos. Funny thing was way to many where willing to let them roll with it and i just had to put a foot down. They tried to argue it was thier power sets( a lowbie dark/dark defender) that entitled them to portray such a being, not thier level, nor actually ability mind you but thier POWER SETS. and infact refused to see any say sword wielders or the like as even possibly powerful. One among them a troller was quite supportive saying for example things like a swordsman cant call himself a wizard etc.

I started to ponder this very odd approach and how best to combat it now in its infancy as this was about month 3 of live. I started to then wonder about what kind of POWERs in the cosmic sense there were in coh. Ofcourse we have Tielekku and the banished pantheon, but they are just natural spirits who feed on the latent psychic energy of humans. Then there are beings like Zeus who might be more then that or not, its really not clear. The well to me is somekind of portal and i view beings like zeus to be a parasite no different then the kheldians. In fact I usually call him grand daddy kheldian.

Then there was the demons. Now we where getting somewhere good, it was clear demons had serious mojo, and a truly ancient origin, though one thankfully left vague. We also had the names of several of thier heavy hitters.

But how does one dare to embrace such a role and not be just as bad as that obnoxious little dark defender? Well obviously the first limit is your cosmic class being must be mortal. And I dont mean superman with his kryptonite, no it needs to be softer then that.

Another is lack of the resources a cosmic being should surely have, be they allies, bases, or collected artifacts, since obviously you still start at first level. Now there is an alternative here Ill bring up, lvl up to 50 even incarnate out, under a different name, then only once your done building, do a name change and fill out your bio.

So you need mortality and generally a good reason they cant access thier army nor armory so to speal.

Well as I browsed the articles on demons I came across infernal naturally. At first his mother seemed a good option, but she really would of been god mode.

However the entire story around T'Keron and Valmaz leaves alot of room for how to apply it. A man fused with a demon through cosmic forces beyond any magic. Yeah lots of possible ideas started swirling.

I went with a mix of the hybrid personality at the core, with each half fighting to take control for short periods of time. Effectively 3 characters in one. I applied human mortality and morality to a demon lord and viewed him as exiled or unable to plane shift any longer, cut off from the demonic realm. I used Katana/SR as his power sets and chose to see him as now dependant on speed and cunning rather then sheer power to survive while he worked to make a place for himself in the world he was bound to.

In time, as his power grew, as we gained more temps, a lvl 50 cap, the mastery/patron power pools, and now incarnates I can say valmaz has learned to master his new form and powers quite handedly, but it will not be until we have full incarnate power that he will be ready to once again return to his realm and take his rightful place once more as lord of Demons.

Love it or hate it, that is how I create a character who wants to be a part of the big cosmic picture, but not try to boss around others or act like I am thier god etc.


 

Posted

Actually a few other tips to.

Never imply you can take control of other players, be it the technopath with machine based, the psi with mental powers, or the thing with lust aura/phermones.

never imply nor suggest your character is more then human in life span unless you are using lore as your likely to end up with an origin that contradicts lore and thus any one using the lore to be part of the game world. If you want to be another ghost in croatoa cool, put some real thought into the how,why,when, and where of it in the bigger picture.

If you want to be a POWER then get deep into that lore and find a concept worthy of your goal and embrace it passionatly. If you show that your goal with the character is to just have fun being the character and not rule over others then no one really should care who or waht you want to call yourself.


 

Posted

And who is to say that all gods are all-mighty and all-powerful? Couldn't there be some rather small and specialized gods?

Your character could very well be a god, but a very specific one like say...

The god of paper jams (every time you curse, you invoke this god)

The god of central air and heating (aaah, truly a blessing on a hot day)

The goddess of really good steaks (that was heavenly)

The god of loaded baked potatoes (her consort)

The goddess of bullets (why do you think they curve like that?)

The god of things going boom (patron saint of Michael Bay)


you get the idea I think.


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Posted

First, depending on the mythology in question, a god is not necessarily all that powerful. Regard a lot of the Greek and Japanese minor gods which are often threatened by the behavior of even normal humans.

In Divine Blood, the majority of beings in any one race are what are known as "Third Tier", which means to have enough raw power to directly affect changes in the local area, even most Immortals fall into this category. The next group is Second Tier, which are able to affect change on a regional level. The last group are First Tier (global level power), which largely consists of eldritch abominations, titans, some undead, devourers and those Gods and Demons who are granted access to that much power via their respective psychic networks. (Fortunately, 1st Tier Gods and Demons are mostly chosen for reliability and sanity)

Second, having cosmic power does not necessarily equate with being able to do anything.

Back to DB, the reason why Gods and Demons typically no longer use 1st tier level power (effect global change) in battle is because the targets they want to hurt will possibly be able to survive while all the resources and sometimes people they fighting over/for will likely be destroyed, rendering the effort moot. More accurate, selective uses of power take more time. Which is why most first tiers amount to cosmic janitors assigned to keeping an eye on natural and manmade disasters in order to thin out the global impact enough that everybody has somewhere to live, usually while other Immortals are quietly dealing with the more local and regional problems of a disaster.

Third, there may be limits to their power either esoteric, procedural or otherwise.

In common myth, even the Gods had rules they had to follow which bound their hands. Going back to my fictional setting. A first Tier God or Demon has their power via the collective permission of the other citizens of either Nirvana or Yomi....as a result anything they do with that power is watched. Abusing 1st Tier power is a good way to get that power taken away.

Daniel Jackson's attempt to destroy Anubis in Stargate SG-1 and his subsequent eviction from Ascension is a good example.

Fourth, they may not yet have full access to their powers.

One of the sup...side...ah hell with it, I have an ensemble cast....one of the high school students in Divine Blood is Hel Logesdottir.....Loges being another name for Loki

Hel is a Demon over 20,000 years old. However, she is currently a 16 year old girl because she recently "reincarnated" to basically clear her head. (they don't actually die and get reborn again, they physically transform into a more youthful form and seal off the majority of their memories). She is about two years from reaching majority and recovering her normal status and memories.

The result is that Hel is quite often the Damsel in Distress much to her own distaste, despite having a high potential power.

Now, as to playing a physical God type reality bender like Q or Doctor Manhattan or the Beyonder...you'll have to basically find reasons why they're not acting at full power...though an arrogant/wise/humble/condescending desire to "fit in" or act on "mortal level" might be at the source.


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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos View Post
The well to me is somekind of portal and i view beings like zeus to be a parasite no different then the kheldians. In fact I usually call him grand daddy kheldian.
I suggest you read up on Zeus, the Well and Kheldians, because you got all three so utterly wrong that it's not even funny.

Now... Regarding god characters in CoH. The game lore makes it quite plain that previous gods on Primal Earth were incarnates who achieved their full potential, and became sources of potential themselves. None of them are "God", the big guy with the big G and the beard etc, there's just humans who became incredibly powerful that they effectively became god-like.

The lore also tells us that all races have a Well, which is nothing more than the potential of a race, and therefore all races will have incarnates who achieved this same status. That gives us plenty of wiggle room for making any kind of god we want.

However, and this is the key point. God characters are utterly BORING! They have ultimate power, they are perfection itself, have no problems, can do anything they want at the wave of a finger, except that actually... they can't. Why the hell would anyone in their right mind want to play a character that has no growth potential, and who the hell would play WITH such a character. I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

In fact, when my characters come across such "gods", their usual reaction is to call the men in white coats.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU View Post
How does one play this without coming across as well...Godmoding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitality View Post
I look at gods and superheroes as one and the same.

It just depends on the time whether they are called one or the other.

Just like Charlize Theron's character in Hancock says about how they used to be called gods and angels...and now people call them superheroes.
There's also the other method: Morgan Freeman.

He played 'God' in Bruce Almighty. At the end he's also revealed to be the homeless man with the placard. He was there the whole time. He only shows off his abilities at first when Bruce tries to trick him with the seven fingers. And throughout the movie; all his powers tend to be passive whereas Bruce abuses the hell of them (no pun intended) and Bruce ends up coming the worse-off as all his efforts to be Mr. Exclusive only start piling up as he ends up making them worse until he finds the prayer from his love and realises there's a karmic balance to the use of powers. Once he stops using them he realises that doing things for yourself and others

I actually have a fairy who literally "godmods" that way but she shares the karmic balance angle; she's a fairy of good fortune. If she does too many good things, it piles up and then something really bad happens. She builds up her good Karma slowly and then lets it out in a gentle flow rather than a raging torrent. The balance is what keeps her in check.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan View Post
I suggest you read up on Zeus, the Well and Kheldians, because you got all three so utterly wrong that it's not even funny.

Now... Regarding god characters in CoH. The game lore makes it quite plain that previous gods on Primal Earth were incarnates who achieved their full potential, and became sources of potential themselves. None of them are "God", the big guy with the big G and the beard etc, there's just humans who became incredibly powerful that they effectively became god-like.

The lore also tells us that all races have a Well, which is nothing more than the potential of a race, and therefore all races will have incarnates who achieved this same status. That gives us plenty of wiggle room for making any kind of god we want.

However, and this is the key point. God characters are utterly BORING! They have ultimate power, they are perfection itself, have no problems, can do anything they want at the wave of a finger, except that actually... they can't. Why the hell would anyone in their right mind want to play a character that has no growth potential, and who the hell would play WITH such a character. I know I sure as hell wouldn't.

In fact, when my characters come across such "gods", their usual reaction is to call the men in white coats.
similarly, I tend to write stories that operate on the theory that sentience=cosmic level power and that anybody can make a concept that was once impossible into daily reality given enough conviction

as to my "Gods" in Divine Blood

Quote:
"I've never claimed to be the Creator of the universe," Morrigan said. "We started to interact with you," and she gestured around at the various humans, "and you called us 'God', eventually we just kept having to respond to that and it became the name of the species. As far as I am concerned, the definition of 'God' is my species. And since I am a member of my species, I am not a false god."

She narrowed her eyes.

"I refuse to apologize because we abandoned our own cultural heritage in order to fit where you wanted us to fit," Morrigan said.
granted...I'm not nearly that point in the story on the original novels (this was originally a fanfic, though the Morrigan noted is NOT the succubus from Darkstalkers...she's my own based on Irish myth)....but that is the feeling most Gods and Demons would have when questioned as to what they are

for further fun, I need to have a similar Demon rant at some point. Something along the lines of:

"You know, it originally meant 'Divine Spirit' not 'Evil Spirit'."


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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanus View Post
[1]
First, depending on the mythology in question, a god is not necessarily all that powerful. Regard a lot of the Greek and Japanese minor gods which are often threatened by the behavior of even normal humans.

In Divine Blood, the majority of beings in any one race are what are known as "Third Tier", which means to have enough raw power to directly affect changes in the local area, even most Immortals fall into this category. The next group is Second Tier, which are able to affect change on a regional level. The last group are First Tier (global level power), which largely consists of eldritch abominations, titans, some undead, devourers and those Gods and Demons who are granted access to that much power via their respective psychic networks. (Fortunately, 1st Tier Gods and Demons are mostly chosen for reliability and sanity)

Second, having cosmic power does not necessarily equate with being able to do anything.

Back to DB, the reason why Gods and Demons typically no longer use 1st tier level power (effect global change) in battle is because the targets they want to hurt will possibly be able to survive while all the resources and sometimes people they fighting over/for will likely be destroyed, rendering the effort moot. More accurate, selective uses of power take more time. Which is why most first tiers amount to cosmic janitors assigned to keeping an eye on natural and manmade disasters in order to thin out the global impact enough that everybody has somewhere to live, usually while other Immortals are quietly dealing with the more local and regional problems of a disaster.

Third, there may be limits to their power either esoteric, procedural or otherwise.

In common myth, even the Gods had rules they had to follow which bound their hands. Going back to my fictional setting. A first Tier God or Demon has their power via the collective permission of the other citizens of either Nirvana or Yomi....as a result anything they do with that power is watched. Abusing 1st Tier power is a good way to get that power taken away.

Daniel Jackson's attempt to destroy Anubis in Stargate SG-1 and his subsequent eviction from Ascension is a good example.

Fourth, they may not yet have full access to their powers.

One of the sup...side...ah hell with it, I have an ensemble cast....one of the high school students in Divine Blood is Hel Logesdottir.....Loges being another name for Loki

Hel is a Demon over 20,000 years old. However, she is currently a 16 year old girl because she recently "reincarnated" to basically clear her head. (they don't actually die and get reborn again, they physically transform into a more youthful form and seal off the majority of their memories). She is about two years from reaching majority and recovering her normal status and memories.

The result is that Hel is quite often the Damsel in Distress much to her own distaste, despite having a high potential power.

[2]
Now, as to playing a physical God type reality bender like Q or Doctor Manhattan or the Beyonder...you'll have to basically find reasons why they're not acting at full power...though an arrogant/wise/humble/condescending desire to "fit in" or act on "mortal level" might be at the source.
I like [1]...not so much [2].

For [1], it's very orderly and controlled. Graspable and yet far more complex than what you'd first think. Playing such a character bound by rules, laws, elements, duties and such brings about another aspect one is able to roleplay vs an alien who acts as an ambassador vs a normal human acting within (or against) the law.

My most powerful character who could basically call down storms and ravage the world to bring it to a point like it was, balanced by nature and being 'pure' again, is but 1 creature in a myriad of others that 'balance' the affects of nature. If my character acts on her impulses and destroys civilization, the others are there to put a stop to it most likely before it ever happens.

To roleplay her is for her to seek means *outside* of her 'godlike' capabilities to bring about an apocalypse to wipe the world clean. That said, she's semi-immortal with knowledge to grant power to others to do her bidding. So another aspect of roleplaying her is roleplaying her minions who are themselves empowered and characters of cunning and depth that are forced to act by her hand yet is perfectly plausible to fail as they aren't 'gods' with vast stores of power, but limited by their source.


For [2], well, I have some like that but more masters of themselves vs the world/universe/dimension around them. They don't manipulate time/reality, but often have 'godlike' maintenance over themselves, meaning 'real gods' have to watch themselves with these as it is difficult to completely destroy them or get rid of them as these particulars can re-establish themselves back from just their molecules or atoms, can become immune to outside effects or even hop to other dimensions.

All in all, it's fun to play godlike characters *when* those characters have their limits despite their power. Because you have to RP those limits which is only as exciting as the limits themselves. Be it acting through a council, watching an invisible balance of actions/reactions, fulfilling a duty and only that duty or literally locking away that power...whatever the limit is is what makes it fun to me.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwbullfrog View Post
And who is to say that all gods are all-mighty and all-powerful? Couldn't there be some rather small and specialized gods?

Your character could very well be a god, but a very specific one like say...

The god of paper jams (every time you curse, you invoke this god)

The god of central air and heating (aaah, truly a blessing on a hot day)

The goddess of really good steaks (that was heavenly)

The god of loaded baked potatoes (her consort)

The goddess of bullets (why do you think they curve like that?)

The god of things going boom (patron saint of Michael Bay)


you get the idea I think.
This is very similar to the Angels and Demons of In Nomine, in that that was an Angel and a Demon for EVERYTHING. The Angel representing the good of that and the Demon the bad.

For example there was an Angel and Demon of Matches. The Angel was the one who guided people to light the fires to keep the homeless warm or get the cooker running in a shelter to provide food for the same people. The Demon was the one who encouraged arsonists or criminals to use fire to cover their tracks.

The other classic way to probably play a 'God' is that you operate very much on the Terry Pratchet system of Belief and Worship = Power. Anything outside of the major belief with very few or no followers is a 'Small God'.

So while the Explodius, God of Explosions exists...it doesn't really have any followers because...well nobody really prays for things to randomly explode and very few people probably would follow him for fear of spontaneously exploding.

The other limiting factor would be that "every God exists, all of them...yes there is a God AND Goddess of explosions, they're fighting over who gets worshippers but there's also the God of anti-explosions who wants to get rid of all kind of explosions, even when the use of an explosion is a good thing...well actually there are three of them."


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Posted

I have some God characters, but not some uber being like Zeus. I make sure they have plenty of weaknesses, which makes it rather funny when they realize they are no longer all powerful. The characters now have to deal with being powerless.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU View Post
The other classic way to probably play a 'God' is that you operate very much on the Terry Pratchet system of Belief and Worship = Power. Anything outside of the major belief with very few or no followers is a 'Small God'.
I believe very much in Sir Terry's way of looking at this. Which must mean that there is a god of Terry Pratchett novels...


Oh, wait, that would be Sir Terry himself.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwbullfrog View Post
I believe very much in Sir Terry's way of looking at this. Which must mean that there is a god of Terry Pratchett novels...


Oh, wait, that would be Sir Terry himself.

Fact. I will duel anyone who claims otherwise


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU View Post
The other classic way to probably play a 'God' is that you operate very much on the Terry Pratchet system of Belief and Worship = Power. Anything outside of the major belief with very few or no followers is a 'Small God'.
In one of the Discworld books, a character (Ridcully?) has a great line that goes something like:

"Of course gods exist. That's no reason to go around believing in them."

Love Sir Pterry's work.


 

Posted

Calling yourself a god in CoX is just painting a huge target on yourself, there are plenty of canon groups that would seek your fall, not to mention a lot of players seeking the status. It doesn’t give you can real in game powers, and any you may claim only work if your fellow Rpers go along with it.

Now I can see plenty of plot hooks that can come from there being a god around, but unless you’re a very weak god what is there to achieve?

With the normal by-laws of RP we all agree to no ones character is killed or much harmed without agreement, so being a god offers no real advantage.

The only workable RP I could see is if you form a SG of gods, then go read up on the antics of the Greek/roman or Norse ones and go from there.

What I think does work is to make a character that is the follower or servant of a made up god, then you have all the fun backstory, with little of the grief.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tefkuf View Post
Calling yourself a god in CoX is just painting a huge target on yourself, there are plenty of canon groups that would seek your fall, not to mention a lot of players seeking the status. It doesn’t give you can real in game powers, and any you may claim only work if your fellow Rpers go along with it.

Now I can see plenty of plot hooks that can come from there being a god around, but unless you’re a very weak god what is there to achieve?

With the normal by-laws of RP we all agree to no ones character is killed or much harmed without agreement, so being a god offers no real advantage.

The only workable RP I could see is if you form a SG of gods, then go read up on the antics of the Greek/roman or Norse ones and go from there.

What I think does work is to make a character that is the follower or servant of a made up god, then you have all the fun backstory, with little of the grief.

actually, no, servant of a God is not the same backstory and not nearly as fun as an immortal being trying figure out mortals

again...."god" does not equal phenomenal cosmic powers.....


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Posted

...itty bitty living space! (Sorry, had to. )

But to make a point for my posting that little bit of silliness...

I personally prefer to avoid actually playing a god regardless of the power level. There are definitely some interesting ideas that have already been brought up in this thread and they are the kind of things I would certainly watch with interest as things develop, but I generally prefer my characters to be a little more...mundane?

My main is certainly very powerful - a botched CoT ritual left her with access to power from a demonic realm, but didn't actually possess her as was the original intention - she has also recently discovered that said ritual made her immortal but (and I would like to stress that) she is not a god, nor will she ever be.

Possibly the only exception to my statement about preferring less god-like characters, is someone I killed off lately (yes, I really did, but that means nothing to any god worth their salt! ). He's snarky, a know-it-all, better than everyone else, will only help if he's in the mood for it and a highly opinionated individual. He's also rather fond of fish.

Oh, and he's a cat. That probably explains it all!


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lycanus View Post
actually, no, servant of a God is not the same backstory and not nearly as fun as an immortal being trying figure out mortals

again...."god" does not equal phenomenal cosmic powers.....

a god trying to figure out mortals actually does sound fun, a diety of anthropology...

tbh the phenomenal cosmic power bit is what i see seperates the god from the meta/incarnate .. Zeus' lighting bolt is way zappy-er than any Elec blasters, or Thor's hammer vs may War mace ... the only issue is when someone claims that their god is every single power at cosmic levels.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tefkuf View Post
a god trying to figure out mortals actually does sound fun, a diety of anthropology...

tbh the phenomenal cosmic power bit is what i see seperates the god from the meta/incarnate .. Zeus' lighting bolt is way zappy-er than any Elec blasters, or Thor's hammer vs may War mace ... the only issue is when someone claims that their god is every single power at cosmic levels.
Cosmic power isn't enough for godhood... Kheldians are essentially cosmic powered, but they're not gods.


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Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tefkuf View Post
a god trying to figure out mortals actually does sound fun, a diety of anthropology...

tbh the phenomenal cosmic power bit is what i see seperates the god from the meta/incarnate .. Zeus' lighting bolt is way zappy-er than any Elec blasters, or Thor's hammer vs may War mace ... the only issue is when someone claims that their god is every single power at cosmic levels.
According to lore, the ancient Greek 'gods' were actually some of the earlier Incarnates.

Personally, I think there are way more more-interesting characters that can be made that don't rely on 'being a god' as their schitck. It's something of a one trick pony, t'be honest, and a bit of a boring one at that.


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FloatingFatMan View Post
Cosmic power isn't enough for godhood... Kheldians are essentially cosmic powered, but they're not gods.
was using cosmic in the slang / comic book vein ..ie uber, beyond normal , an 11 on a 1 to 10 scale.. not the astrophysical usage, also as a hint at that the power comes from "somewhere else"(TM)

Lore wise is there any mention of the Khelds having gods ? as the only detailed non human race we have,thats playable.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
According to lore, the ancient Greek 'gods' were actually some of the earlier Incarnates.
i am not totally upto date with the latest Well/incarnate/god retcons . . but doesnt that mean all the human know gods were either not gods but incarnates, of gods from somewhere else ? having transended their own version of the well ??