Pure defense sets with Incarnate content?
By
Android_5Point9,
Posted on: 2012-01-26 08:22 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Here's my current build. |
Originally Posted by rsclark
If you've got two throw away powers in the medicine tree, it's much less likely you got to softcap without sacrificing something else.
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Sure my regen rate isn't the greatest, but if I need health after a fight, guess what? I heal myself. I gain back far more health in those few seconds than I would from a higher regen rate. I suppose I could have picked up an APP or Patron aoe attack, but then I'd be losing out on my combo points and have an end problem that I don't currently have. I could pick up Hasten, but I already run a fluid chain of combos to finishers and never have to worry about toggles dropping from an end crash. Not the absolute highest dps chain, but plenty good in my experience, taking full advantage of StJ's combo system.
Edit: For Incarnates I'm running t4 Musculature Radial Paragon(for extra end), t4 Pyronic(all dmg one), t4 Reactive, and t4 Rebirth Radial. I have t4 Longbow pets but don't use them while fighting those Arachnos, although I'd be a liar if I said I didn't use the Rebirth to smooth out the fights. Even then, there are still some times when I need to use Heal Self, and if I'm not paying attention I will faceplant.
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Now when did I piss in your cornflakes?|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
... Two of those three level shifts only work in incarnate trials, and +4/x8 arachnos is one of the hardest faction out there, if not the absolute hardest, for anyone who isn't playing something with capped DDR or close to it.
This is the kind of ignorant comment coupled with a know-it-all attitude that made me put you on ignore, alright. Shame I get to see your posts every now and then due to the forum logout bug. |
You are correct. Only the alpha level shift will function outside of I-trials and DA. That still leaves the buff from Alpha, a huge aoe from Judgement, a major buff from Interface, Lore pets and, in my case at least, a massive heal/regen buff from Destiny. Against +3/x8 arachnos.
Spoken originally to another SR player who will also be capped on DDR.
I'm so very sorry to have not spelled all that out in the first place and regret my error regarding level shifts. Not that it made any difference in the end.
Be well, people of CoH.
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How do you put people on ignore?|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
This is the kind of ignorant comment coupled with a know-it-all attitude that made me put you on ignore, alright. Shame I get to see your posts every now and then due to the forum logout bug.
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(Wonders if this gets answered)
(Secondly saying ya put someone on ignore isn't what moderators like to see but yep Bill Z does enough baiting).
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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This. |
Originally Posted by firespray
I found out that Elude had a use again.
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Even one slotted, even if it's just a spot to mule a LotG Recharge IO. It is worth it. There are times in iTrials where you're not with the entire league, or away from support AT teammates. Those intervals are where Elude saves your butt.
I haven't ran many missions in DA on beta, however I can tell you there is a big difference between running an SR in an Incarnate trial and running one solo through DA.
I had the unfortunate displeasure of running a mission against the group "Talons of something or another"... totally disgusting. I think I read somewhere that the enemies in DA have increased To Hit, but whatever it is made my 45% positional defense a joke.
Since I have no heal on that particular SR scrapper I may end up having to waste time getting enough salvage to replace some of my existing Incarnate powers such as swapping Ageless for Rebirth and Musculature for Agility.
Le sigh...
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Quote:
Too much.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
but yep Bill Z does enough baiting
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Be well, people of CoH.
Its interesting to see both old and new players debating SR, and not one of them really using it close to its real potential.
Since year one I have run a Kat/SR on Virtue named T'Keron Valmaz. The road with him has been a long one.
SR in year one with perhaps the exception of dark/SR usually was a real PITA to run. No self heals, no end recovery, no dmg resistance to help lesson the blows that slipped through. What we did have however after the hard climb, was Perma Elude. Of all the sets that suffered when ED came and perma end tier powers where taken away, SR suffered worst of all.
In this thread I see debates about Aid Self from the heal pool. To me any build with even a single throw away power like heal other is a wasteful and sloppy build. Unless it is a team centric/support scrapper build. Typically though I use Regen or WP for such a build as thier heavy end recovery lets running the leadership powers become easy, and with the ability to self rez, being able to res others becomes immensly more useful in avoiding wipes in some dark deep places like in the eden trial. Personally for SR builds I rarely can condone the use of either leadership or the healing pool. Not that it cant be done, but IMO without real experiance such builds prove more a waste then a success.
For a long time my Kat/SR saw regular periods of being shelved as I tried various respecs when changes came to try and get back to what he had lost. You see in the end nothing and i mean NOTHING else can ever help you more as and SR then getting back to Perma Elude. Is it possible? Not exactly at least for me so far. But thanks to Incarnate powers I am as close as I really need to be.
My build as far as pools goes focus on personal mobility and speed. Quickness is the true icon power of the SR set and your build should be all about how quickness can help you push your global recharge to an extreme.
My global has reached the point where although I am not perma Elude, I can phase shift for the entire down time of Elude, and although I do have rebirth as well I mainly use the endurance recovery/global recharge power in its stead.
However I actually run two builds on this scrapper. One favors rebirth and uses body mastery for additional regen and recov, it doesnt use any purple IO sets and was mainly created as a cheaper alternatice while I restored him.
His main incarnate build uses fire mastery for some various purple IO sets, and is the one that uses extreme recharge to remove virtually any window of vulnerability. about the only inspirations he does carry are dmg and heals to further allow him to deal speedy death and heal from the occasional lucky shot.
finally this allows him to keep his practice brawler triple stacked and even for short periods of time quad stack, this gives him such protection as to endure almost any number of control effects thrown at him.its not something you can really control but once I even had a quad stack during a rommy rez and although i cant be sure i wasnt just out of range, but I didnt suffer a stun and was not really that far from him. I read his rez stun is only a 32 mag. and quad stacked PB will put you over that.
Just my thoughts on SR and where its true potential exists. BTW easiest way to see if your SR can hold his own. go run a shadow shard tf like sara moore at +4 X8. if your iincarnate crew can get through that ok, then your worthy of the power you wield.
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Yes, please tell us of SR's real potential!|
Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
Its interesting to see both old and new players debating SR, and not one of them really using it close to its real potential.
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Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
My global has reached the point where although I am not perma Elude, I can phase shift for the entire down time of Elude...
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
finally this allows him to keep his practice brawler triple stacked and even for short periods of time quad stack, this gives him such protection as to endure almost any number of control effects thrown at him.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
Just my thoughts on SR and where its true potential exists. BTW easiest way to see if your SR can hold his own. go run a shadow shard tf like sara moore at +4 X8. if your iincarnate crew can get through that ok, then your worthy of the power you wield.
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Sara Moore's TF level caps at 44, so I'm not sure what you mean in that last line, the one concerning "iincarnate crew". At level 44, you don't have any Incarnate powers.
You don't condone the medicine pool but you phase shift during Elude's downtime? That seems to be a bit of an extreme point of view.
Also, Elude's not a Panacea. Its not true that *nothing* is better than Elude for SR. In I3, perhaps. In I3 Elude could theoretically achieve 94.7% damage mitigation against high level and rank critters. That's huge. Since I7, Elude cannot do better than 90% mitigation, essentially the soft-cap for a given tohit. Against incarnates, 92.2% effective mitigation. A non-Elude build that achieves higher resistances and regeneration can exceed an Elude build under many conditions. Elude will beat those builds in tohit buffed conditions, non-Elude builds will tend to win outside of them.
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Sorry pal, but I'm pretty sure you're not playing SR to its full potential. Elude is simply sub-par(you get purple insps for those end-cases, and using it constantly is bad for damage), 3-stacked PB is overkill and reduces your damage output(Same as Elude, but replace purple insps with BF's), and you've clearly went above and beyond the recharge you need for Katana's top attack chain, meaning you're losing out on potential damage.|
Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
Its interesting to see both old and new players debating SR, and not one of them really using it close to its real potential.
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My DB/SR uses inspirations for rare scenarios, and the rest is pure DPS from set bonuses, which is what SR does best. Trying to turn SR into a defensive juggernaut is just not worth it 95% of the time.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
I find it interesting to note no one commented about a question on page 3 of this thread. The question:
Is the higher to-hit from the mobs in DA just having higher base to-hit, or is it because they are higher level then the player?
I've been running DA missions on Madam Enigma. I don't have a single level shift yet. Nor do I have perma-softcapped (45%) defense. In fact my defense is on average about 36% across the board, 38% if I have my light faerie out. And to be honest, I'm not getting steamrolled as much as people are implying I should be. Yeah, large groups can be a pain. But I honestly have more trouble fighting Ruluu then the mobs in DA. Even if the DA mobs are +3 or +4.
Okay, the +4 mobs give me some trouble. But not enough I can't win.
Yes, I have aid self. But honestly, I didn't have anything else I felt would help out more. I had 3 free up power picks due to not requiring to select the fitness pool. This caused me to have enough extra choices for aid self and a second epic pool attack.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Since I7 critters get accuracy bonuses for being higher level, up to +5. They only gain increased tohit starting at +6.|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
I find it interesting to note no one commented about a question on page 3 of this thread. The question:
Is the higher to-hit from the mobs in DA just having higher base to-hit, or is it because they are higher level then the player? |
There are a set of new critter types that are identical to the normal minion/LT/Boss/EB/AV classes but have 64% base tohit instead of 50%, generally referred to as the Praetorian class critters. These critters act like they have +14% tohit on them all the time. The spawns in DA appear to be of this class, not the normal class of critters. Outside of DA, the only place you see this class of critters are *some* of the critters in Incarnate trials, and the DE that spawn in tip missions for some unknown reason.
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Quote:
As Arcanaville notes, being higher level than you no longer results in higher net toHit against you, unless the critter is at least +6 to you. In DA, as in iTrials, (most) critters of any level (or level shift) have an inherent +14% in their base toHit against all characters, regardless of other factors.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Is the higher to-hit from the mobs in DA just having higher base to-hit, or is it because they are higher level then the player?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Yeah, I remember when they changed the level scaling to help out defense sets a while back.
Then there's those freaking ruluu eyeballs that can hit through 200% defense like it's not even there. Same with the end boss for Who Will Die part five. I noticed even with hardcapped defense he still ignored my secondary (SR).
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Doesn't the accuracy bonuses (which can be substantial on something like +5 levels) affect their ability to ultimately land a hit? |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Since I7 critters get accuracy bonuses for being higher level, up to +5. They only gain increased tohit starting at +6.
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I know that accuracy is not as powerful as To Hit, but it was my understanding that as a mechanic it does modify the final chance to be hit, doesn't it? (like a 1.50 accuracy modifier from +5 levels would bring a mob's 50% To Hit to 75%, or am i looking at it wrong?)
Virtue Heroes of note:
Katerinae, Luci Ferre, Shinigami's Kiss, Dark Invokation, Cerulean Twilight, Side effect, Cheshire Noir
Virtue Villains of note:
- Black Dragon, Raven Sterling, Domina Procella, Inertia K., Vivian Revenio, Charlotte Arachne, Doll Parts, Fierce Orchid, Theta Charge
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You're looking at it wrong. The powerful difference between tohit and accuracy is mostly due to the fact that defense subtracts from base tohit first, and then accuracy is applied to the final number.|
Originally Posted by Katerinae
Doesn't the accuracy bonuses (which can be substantial on something like +5 levels) affect their ability to ultimately land a hit?
I know that accuracy is not as powerful as To Hit, but it was my understanding that as a mechanic it does modify the final chance to be hit, doesn't it? (like a 1.50 accuracy modifier from +5 levels would bring a mob's 50% To Hit to 75%, or am i looking at it wrong?) |
So if you have a critter with 50% base tohit and you have 45% defense, final chance to hit is 5%. Adding 5% tohit increases that to 10%, doubling your chance to get hit. A whopping 40% accuracy bonus only increases final chance tohit from 5% to 5% * 1.4 = 7%, an increase of - not coincidentally - 40%.
Here's an illustration of the difference. You have three players, one with 45% defense, one with 25% defense, and one with zero defense. If the attacker gains a 14% tohit buff, then the first player goes from being hit 5% of the time to 19% of the time. His damage increases by 280%. The second goes from getting hit 25% of the time to 39% of the time; his damage goes up by only 56%. The last player goes from getting hit 50% of the time to 64% of the time, an increase of only 28%.
But if the attacker gained an accuracy bonus of +28%, then the first player goes from getting hit 5% of the time to 6.4% of the time, the second from 25% to 32% of the time, and the third from 50% of the time to 64% of the time, and in all cases the player experiences an increase in incoming damage of 28% more damage.
That's the difference between handing out tohit buffs and handing out accuracy buffs to NPCs.
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Fact: NO SUCH THING AS TO MUCH RECHARGE EVER! least not for SR users.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
and you've clearly went above and beyond the recharge you need for Katana's top attack chain, meaning you're losing out on potential damage.My DB/.
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DB= insta no respect LOL even having one if you have a 50 kat and BS is unacceptable to real sword fans. Its combo system is a flawed joke that was proven more so with the superior systems added with street justice and titan weapons, both of which are much smoother flowing and feel intuiative to use rather then having to micro manage which attack I am allowed to use next.
you can try to preach math but that is like trying to talk the big bang to someone who takes tea with the holy 3. you have theory I have been there done that and taught others how to do it better then they learned from these forums. You can think I will stil KNOW!
An attack chain would require my targets to take multiple attacks, outside of AVs nothing lives long enough to be worthy of one. What you dont one shot almost everything with your scrapper? what was that about dmg again? because mine dont lack for that to be sure. You ever wonder what having Build at the begining of every group is like? I do and it equals tons of dmg, no missing, and the boss and every mob falling like wheat to my scything blade. I can single target cut down most groups in the time it takes a blaster to use his nuke. So can any real scrappers I know.
Ofcourse to be a real scrapper is to be aware a real scrapper no matter the power sets is the most OP game breaking AT in the game, and then deny it vehemently when questioned about why my AT and none other can solo 8 AVs at once. ofcourse that was pre incarnate era...... yeah lets just stop trying to say any scrapper needs help, help my scrapper and ill break the game even more I promise you that.
There's a craftable heal power at your local Auction House.
perma jump is ---> /up 1
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But then isn't +Accuracy essentially a small amount of unresistable damage for a defense based user? Why is it completely fair to give accuracy to mobs with no way to counter them, but unresistable damage is so heavily frowned upon?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
So if you have a critter with 50% base tohit and you have 45% defense, final chance to hit is 5%. Adding 5% tohit increases that to 10%, doubling your chance to get hit. A whopping 40% accuracy bonus only increases final chance tohit from 5% to 5% * 1.4 = 7%, an increase of - not coincidentally - 40%.
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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I'm not sure where you'd get the interpretation that +acc is like irresistible damage. That'd be like saying +damage is irresisible damage.|
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
But then isn't +Accuracy essentially a small amount of unresistable damage for a defense based user? Why is it completely fair to give accuracy to mobs with no way to counter them, but unresistable damage is so heavily frowned upon?
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Increasing critter accuracy is just like increasing critter damage, but increases the average damage they deal by letting them hit more often instead of increasing the per-hit damage. However, due to critter mechanics, it creates this increase in a way that scales proportionally no matter how much defense the target has. Something with 110% accuracy does 10% more average damage than something with 100% accuracy, no matter what the target has for defense (including zero defense).
It's toHit versus defense that's almost directly analogous to irresistible damage against resistance.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demetrios Vasilikos
Fact: NO SUCH THING AS TO MUCH RECHARGE EVER! least not for SR users.
DB= insta no respect LOL even having one if you have a 50 kat and BS is unacceptable to real sword fans. Its combo system is a flawed joke that was proven more so with the superior systems added with street justice and titan weapons, both of which are much smoother flowing and feel intuiative to use rather then having to micro manage which attack I am allowed to use next. you can try to preach math but that is like trying to talk the big bang to someone who takes tea with the holy 3. you have theory I have been there done that and taught others how to do it better then they learned from these forums. You can think I will stil KNOW! An attack chain would require my targets to take multiple attacks, outside of AVs nothing lives long enough to be worthy of one. What you dont one shot almost everything with your scrapper? what was that about dmg again? because mine dont lack for that to be sure. You ever wonder what having Build at the begining of every group is like? I do and it equals tons of dmg, no missing, and the boss and every mob falling like wheat to my scything blade. I can single target cut down most groups in the time it takes a blaster to use his nuke. So can any real scrappers I know. Ofcourse to be a real scrapper is to be aware a real scrapper no matter the power sets is the most OP game breaking AT in the game, and then deny it vehemently when questioned about why my AT and none other can solo 8 AVs at once. ofcourse that was pre incarnate era...... yeah lets just stop trying to say any scrapper needs help, help my scrapper and ill break the game even more I promise you that. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Technically speaking, healing is not mitigation. Mitigation helps to prevent or reduce incoming damage. Healing does neither.
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Originally Posted by Fugacity
Healing is great mitigation
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Out of all that I've said about the actual subject in this thread you have nothing better to do than cherry pick a single quote, out of context, and then argue semantics?|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Technically speaking, healing is not mitigation. Mitigation helps to prevent or reduce incoming damage. Healing does neither.
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Technically speaking, mitigation reduces the severity of an effect, therefore you are wrong in suggesting "mitigation helps to prevent...incoming damage". Mitigation prevents nothing, it only lessens an effect.
There. Aren't semantic arguments fun?
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If a mob has +100% Accuracy they will ALWAYS have a tohit of 10% or greater. If a mob has +100% ToHit I can still reduce them to 5% by popping Overload and Demonic Aura simultaneously (+100% Defense to the basic 6). Accuracy will always result in me getting hit more - it's basically akin to a -maxresistance debuff reducing a Tankers resistance cap from 90% to 85%.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
It's toHit versus defense that's almost directly analogous to irresistible damage against resistance.
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In short - I'm really tired of being one-shotted by a Vicky when Anti-Matter could barely harm me by comparison (one-shotting in this case is one thousand cuts dot over 2 seconds that I can't respond to in time).
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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This is the kind of ignorant comment coupled with a know-it-all attitude that made me put you on ignore, alright. Shame I get to see your posts every now and then due to the forum logout bug.