About cage powers...


 

Posted

So, I am a fan of the power Sonic Cage. The graphics are cool, and the ability to give a hard to kill disruption or support enemy a time out is a nifty effect, in theory.

Two places I know it works well are in the Sutter TF and the STF, but I'm wondering if there are other places where the cage effect actually makes life easier without disrupting the flow of combat.

The ITF would be an example of content that could be modified to make it easier to cage certain enemies upping the overall usefullness of having the effect as a power selection.

Right now, the Nictus AVs shrug off the Intangible effect. Allowing them to be caged would make another situation the power would do well. Not enough DPS? Cage the Healer. Low Survivability but mucho damage? Cage the Autohit Nictus or the Summoner.

What other encounters can modified to make cage powers viable selections on leveling?


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Posted

Modifying content to better suit a very small number of powers doesn't quite make sense.

A less labor intensive method would be to make the cages toggle powers like the upcoming version of Dimension Shift from Gravity Control. The main complaint with the cages isn't that their effects aren't useful; it's that the player has no control over the duration. It's great that you can cage an enemy to take them out of the fight but you can't uncage them when your team is ready to take 'em on. So you and your team mates are left standing around, wasting attacks on an invulnerable opponent.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeshadow View Post
Modifying content to better suit a very small number of powers doesn't quite make sense.
And yet they modify content to nerf these powers. Here's a recent example: the UG trial. You used to be able to cage the lichen that boosted the Lichen-Infested WW's regen. That was quickly changed.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ketch View Post
And yet they modify content to nerf these powers. Here's a recent example: the UG trial. You used to be able to cage the lichen that boosted the Lichen-Infested WW's regen. That was quickly changed.

In fact, this has happened repeatedly to several of Force Field's less popular powers. You used to be able to Repel the bombs on the Tin Mage Task Force with Force Bubble. It was changed so you couldn't. You used to be able to knockback the Telepathists in TPN. Also changed. You could make Antimatter intangible to prevent damage to him. Changed. For powers they don't have time to change they do seem to spend a lot of time modifying content to nerf it back into uselessness.

Force Bubble and the intangible powers are in the frustrating position of being powers limited in usefulness to extreme situations, but when those extreme situations actually occur the encounters are routinely changed to prevent them from working. This is a very well established pattern at this point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeshadow
Modifying content to better suit a very small number of powers doesn't quite make sense.
Powers only have meaning in the context of content. A power that does 1000 points of damage but is 90% resisted in all existing content really only does 100 points of damage.

In any case, we could start fixing some of these powers by changing the encounters back.

It is also entirely ridiculous that Repel doesn't work on the swords in Apex, which is one of the main situations where you would even need it to work.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by William_Valence View Post
Not enough DPS? Cage the Healer. Low Survivability but mucho damage? Cage the Autohit Nictus or the Summoner.
Thread Jack sorry,

Is there way or trick to tell the nictus apart?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeshadow View Post
Modifying content to better suit a very small number of powers doesn't quite make sense.

A less labor intensive method would be to make the cages toggle powers like the upcoming version of Dimension Shift from Gravity Control. The main complaint with the cages isn't that their effects aren't useful; it's that the player has no control over the duration. It's great that you can cage an enemy to take them out of the fight but you can't uncage them when your team is ready to take 'em on. So you and your team mates are left standing around, wasting attacks on an invulnerable opponent.
That's part of it, but with the power creep we've been seeing I can tell you that Cages would be much more valuable in the context of preventing disruptive mechanics meant to counter that power creep (I.E. unresistable damage, damage patchs, and Sutter's TP power) With standard stuff, there are fewer examples (I can't think of any from a teaming perspective) of enemies that would be better off caged than killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
In fact, this has happened repeatedly to several of Force Field's less popular powers. You used to be able to Repel the bombs on the Tin Mage Task Force with Force Bubble. It was changed so you couldn't. You used to be able to knockback the Telepathists in TPN. Also changed. You could make Antimatter intangible to prevent damage to him. Changed. For powers they don't have time to change they do seem to spend a lot of time modifying content to nerf it back into uselessness.

Force Bubble and the intangible powers are in the frustrating position of being powers limited in usefulness to extreme situations, but when those extreme situations actually occur the encounters are routinely changed to prevent them from working. This is a very well established pattern at this point.
...

In any case, we could start fixing some of these powers by changing the encounters back.

It is also entirely ridiculous that Repel doesn't work on the swords in Apex, which is one of the main situations where you would even need it to work.
This is exactly the kind of examples I was looking for. Not suprising that the majority of the situations woud be at higher levels, where the power creep is greatest, where there'd be more disruptive tricks.

Actually, this whole thread was inspired by the comments you made about the TPN after our Sutter the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tanstaafl View Post
Thread Jack sorry,

Is there way or trick to tell the nictus apart?
Yes, but you have to be both lucky and observant. Each Nictus has a different power with different GFX. If they are not clipped into each other, you can tell them apart fairly easily.


Murphys Military Law

#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.

#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.

#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.

 

Posted

I do wish that the cage powers were better. Currently I have aim on my sonic, but that power is basically a throwaway power. I used to use cage as a low level mez so I could hold the boss and use rest to heal up.

N00b question here, but during what parts can you use cages on the Sutter TF and the STF?



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid View Post
N00b question here, but during what parts can you use cages on the Sutter TF and the STF?
STF: Cage a tower, no more super-buff from that tower when trying to take out other towers/recluse. It's faster than killing the tower so if you could skip two towers in a STF, you can just kill one cage the second, and kill recluse. Or even kill three cage the last, that sort of thing.

Sutter: Cage Praetorian Durray and he doesn't AoE spamm, (as far as I can tell) doesn't summon, and won't recharge Primal Durray's TP power. Which makes thing's a tad easier.


Murphys Military Law

#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.

#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.

#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.

 

Posted

I believe you can also cage some of the Patron AVs if you grab more than your group can handle, but if I recall it takes double stacking.

Haven't personally done it, so I can't swear to that, though.

But yes, it's very frustrating to have the Devs seem to go out of their way to marginalize some powers. A less extreme example is just the teleport travel pool. Any idea how often TP is suppressed, or Recall. If Super Speed and Hasten were suppressed that often, the howls would never end. Or Hover and Fly, or CJ and SJ. But teleport and recall seem to get hit a lot.


 

Posted

The cage powers work on Singularities summoned by Longbow Wardens (or Marcone Consiglieres).

Caging the singulairty doesnt make the caster summon a new one.
When the caster is defeated, the caged Singularity disappears, so this is one of the rare situations where you can use these powers without any penalty.

You fight Longbow on two of the 50 hero tip missions, so this is far from an edge case for the typical level 50 hero, who may engage in hero tip farming themesleves or assist others in doing so.

I agree with the above posters - its ridiculous that these highly situational powers are nerfed in the few cases where they could be useful.


 

Posted

It saddens me that the devs nerfed the Force Bubble effect on Tin Mage... most of my toons who have that bomb badge did so with the assist of a Force Field toon. Why won't they let a set that already has some problems at least have a few golden moments, instead of killing them all the moment players figure out a new creative use for FF.


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Posted

I finally received Cage last night for my Sonic/Sonic Defender last night. I used it in the first mish of 'helping Proton.' It locked up the Death Head Buckshots like they were common criminals. I even used it on the Leader who tried to "escape" while I took on his guards. Cage really impressed me. Heck the sonic powers all around do.

So far, I am really impressed with the power combination and how well my 14 lvl defender is able to solo. Far better than my Kin/DP. I'm looking foward to what this one will look like when I finally reach lvl 50.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
In fact, this has happened repeatedly to several of Force Field's less popular powers. You used to be able to Repel the bombs on the Tin Mage Task Force with Force Bubble. It was changed so you couldn't. You used to be able to knockback the Telepathists in TPN. Also changed. You could make Antimatter intangible to prevent damage to him. Changed. For powers they don't have time to change they do seem to spend a lot of time modifying content to nerf it back into uselessness.

Force Bubble and the intangible powers are in the frustrating position of being powers limited in usefulness to extreme situations, but when those extreme situations actually occur the encounters are routinely changed to prevent them from working. This is a very well established pattern at this point.




Powers only have meaning in the context of content. A power that does 1000 points of damage but is 90% resisted in all existing content really only does 100 points of damage.

In any case, we could start fixing some of these powers by changing the encounters back.

It is also entirely ridiculous that Repel doesn't work on the swords in Apex, which is one of the main situations where you would even need it to work.
It's just so frustrating to see stuff like this happen. "Powers only have meaning in the context of content." is a rather sig worthy quote. I think the thing the devs may not realize is that they're skewing player perspective of whole powersets by doing things like this. The other thing is that while they may be trying to protect the ability to make challenges since it removes a player's ability to approach it in multiple ways. Something else...rather than treat things like on/off switches, why not use resistance to lessen the effect? While phase/capture has to be binary, repel could be of variable strength. Another concept is thinking three dimensionally. Place things in locations where no one phase/repel will hit everything so you're forced to either rotate around a bit or leave some gaps.


 

Posted

Sonic Cage has so many uses. It is like caltrops where you either understand how to wield in a variety of ways or you don't.

*As mentioned, in the lower levels of solo play, sonic cage is amazing as you engage minions and then take on a lt or boss.

*If there are too many waves of ambushes, cage the last NPC of the ambush spawn to give yourself a breather. The next ambush will not be triggered until the last NPC is defeated.

*Not only can you cage singularities, but also can cage dark servants summoned by Master Illusionists. But the Phantasm and Phantasm Decoy can not be caged because of different phase. :P

*As mentioned already sonic cage is useful in several TF.

Sonic Cage is the most versatile power used in solo, or team from low to high levels of play. Extremely underrated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu View Post
I finally received Cage last night for my Sonic/Sonic Defender last night. I used it in the first mish of 'helping Proton.' It locked up the Death Head Buckshots like they were common criminals. I even used it on the Leader who tried to "escape" while I took on his guards. Cage really impressed me. Heck the sonic powers all around do.

So far, I am really impressed with the power combination and how well my 14 lvl defender is able to solo. Far better than my Kin/DP. I'm looking foward to what this one will look like when I finally reach lvl 50.
I was told that with Sonic Resonance I would have a hard time soloing but that never proved to be the case. Since you are pairing it with /Sonic the synergy is even better. Enjoy and Sonic Dispersion will change how you play for sure once you pick it up.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099 View Post
Sonic Cage has so many uses. It is like caltrops where you either understand how to wield in a variety of ways or you don't.

*As mentioned, in the lower levels of solo play, sonic cage is amazing as you engage minions and then take on a lt or boss.

*If there are too many waves of ambushes, cage the last NPC of the ambush spawn to give yourself a breather. The next ambush will not be triggered until the last NPC is defeated.
Solo play is an extremely different animal. Yes, cage powers are valuable as you level but that value goes down as your build's power goes up. This is even more pronounced in teams, where buffs are often above and beyond the power of a build. Unfortunatly being more disruptive than usefull.

And caltrops is three steps to amazing:

1. Toss'em
2. ???
3. Profit

You just really can't compare the two in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099 View Post
*Not only can you cage singularities, but also can cage dark servants summoned by Master Illusionists. But the Phantasm and Phantasm Decoy can not be caged because of different phase. :P
And I believe this highlights one of my points. Solo it is valuable to cage a pet or summon, in teams I often find the pets (killable ones that is ) are dying rapidly and caging them is time that could be better spent buffing, debuffing, or killing. Though I'll say Singy is a ******* spawn of hell and it almost never hurts to give him a time out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099 View Post
*As mentioned already sonic cage is useful in several TF.
I am sorry to pick nits, but I don't believe that two Task forces could be considered several.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099 View Post
Sonic Cage is the most versatile power used in solo, or team from low to high levels of play. Extremely underrated.
It's a great leveling power, that I wouldn't be caught without on a Sonic Resonance character, simply out of love for it, but the complaints aren't unfounded and while it might be underrated it's not too terribly underrated and it's reputation is deserved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099 View Post
I was told that with Sonic Resonance I would have a hard time soloing but that never proved to be the case. Since you are pairing it with /Sonic the synergy is even better. Enjoy and Sonic Dispersion will change how you play for sure once you pick it up.
Sonic is a neat little powerset, but honestly between power creep and the fact this game has never been rocket science, soloing the game is a fairly simple (and enjoyable) task. My concern is in team situations, where cage powers are more often disruptive to gameplay, which led to my asking what situations can be modified to make caging easier without being disruptive.

And Sonic is a bit on the lower end of the buff/debuff sets it's also what I've got paired with illusion on my namesake and one of my favorite character of all time...of all time.


Murphys Military Law

#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.

#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.

#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.

 

Posted

just make them toggles would be one step in the right direction...

my main problem is, that you can cage 1 enemie and 20sec later the whole team is standing around him and waiting for sonic cage to drop...and you can only say" sorry but i cant do anything to stop this, we have to wait"

next reaction: "plz never do this again"


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