Discussion: Featured Items at the Paragon Market - 1/17/12
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-01-17 11:16 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
Just a few of the boys that will go to bed crying every night
Well said Zombie Man. Although it won't do any good.
Costume pieces take a long time to design and the weekly schedule means something has to come out each week. So don't expect every release to be perfect (in your opinion).
The interesting question is "Are the Devs working on Male versions of the pieces and how will those be released when done?" A second CoL Man package? Add to the existing package raise the price and tee off everyone lol? Or not work on it at all because they can't really charge for it now or include it in an issue without making people more angry.
I would think a request thread asking for specific pieces that are the most popular might get them to port a few of them and just add them to the package, but 10 pieces times 2 forms is a lot of effort.
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All valid points. But... they know doing things like this creates an issue. Gamers are like children in a sense. What you do for one... you have to do for the other. lol. You cant buy one child an ice cream, and leave the other one hanging! heh. And if they did release a CoL male pack WITH MASKS.... i most definitely would be willing to pay more for their efforts.
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Originally Posted by Ultra_Violence
Well said Zombie Man. Although it won't do any good.
Costume pieces take a long time to design and the weekly schedule means something has to come out each week. So don't expect every release to be perfect (in your opinion). The interesting question is "Are the Devs working on Male versions of the pieces and how will those be released when done?" A second CoL Man package? Add to the existing package raise the price and tee off everyone lol? Or not work on it at all because they can't really charge for it now or include it in an issue without making people more angry. I would think a request thread asking for specific pieces that are the most popular might get them to port a few of them and just add them to the package, but 10 pieces times 2 forms is a lot of effort. |
Do not like. No parts for males. I can count the number of female characters I've got on one hand. I could even take an axe to a couple fingers and still be okay.
Unhappy Chad is unhappy. Sure, people have been unhappy with some of the previous packs (most recently, Gunslinger) for conceptual reasons, but at least both genders received approximately the same number of costume parts. In fact, more often than not, females get more costume options than men anyway--in the Halloween pack, they got every piece that males got, PLUS the Medusa face and two hairstyles, and they got a bunch of options in the Barbarian pack that males did not.
And as others have pointed out in the other feedback threads, you DO have male Carnival of Light characters, dressed in touched-up Legacy Chain garb. Why didn't we get access to those costume pieces in this bundle? 
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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Oh snap people are angry... o.O
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Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
What happened to no more gender discrimination?
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Another week of saving points. I guess all the feed back for the CoL set was ignored. It is sad because this is the first time I have felt this way i over 7 years.
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You realize half the feedback was "We want it for males" and that just isn't possible right? once it hits beta, it's just going to be tweaked to make sure it works, doing something like making it for males when it's ported from an all female NPC group is not something they can just flip a switch and do. They know we want Carnival masks for males, and probably down the line we'll get something similar, but your expectations were just too high if that's what you were hoping for.
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Originally Posted by Zyphoid
Another week of saving points. I guess all the feed back for the CoL set was ignored. It is sad because this is the first time I have felt this way i over 7 years.
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QFT.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
For those who didn't follow the debate when the CoL pieces were in Beta:
1. These pieces were made for the CoL NPCs with the specific intention to be able to use them on PCs, as is the policy stated about 2 years ago. 2. The only new pieces were the masks and sashes for females and the weapons (which are for male or female). The men in the CoL got re-colored Legacy Chain pieces and other bits already available in the costume creator. 3. So why so female-centric when the Devs said they'd make things more equitable? Because these pieces were in the pipeline before that decision was made (they were made for First Ward). New costume pieces take months to make, and the schedule of the artists is tight (making stuff for Issue release, e.g.). New sets coming up: Fire & Ice, Elemental Order, Imperial China will have that gender equity. 4. So why can't the male CoL be ported over to PCs? Because they physically can't. These are pieces originally made for NPCs and there is no way to 'port' them over in a way that works for clipping and scaling issues. NPC pieces have different geometries and different nodal hooks and different areas in which they mix and match. So, they would have to be re-created from scratch, which takes several months time. |
Look folks, by the time this was packaged for Beta, the options were "Put it out as is and we'll work on the extra male parts in time" or "Shelve the whole set until we can match male options for it." Can you imagine the outcry if this didn't make it to the store because we had to wait for gender equality? Let's just let it slide and use the existing sets in game that make up 2/3 of the CoL male costume parts already for your male Carnies.
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Does anybody actually pay in PP for the SSAs? Even the sale is a steep price.
A while ago you added the booster-style ninja pack, including powers, as a sale.
Any chance you will add complete booster packs back?
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Nope, I don't believe for a moment it's not possible. I know it would take longer--perhaps months longer--but it's completely possible.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
You realize half the feedback was "We want it for males" and that just isn't possible right?
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But don't forget... they had some pretty sweeping changes done to the unpopular Circle of Thorns revamp within a couple weeks of the pictures leaking at Comic Con. I know they weren't "finished" in the Comic Con build, but they took a lot of player feedback into consideration prior to the final release.
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| once it hits beta, it's just going to be tweaked to make sure it works, doing something like making it for males when it's ported from an all female NPC group is not something they can just flip a switch and do. They know we want Carnival masks for males, and probably down the line we'll get something similar, but your expectations were just too high if that's what you were hoping for. |
I didn't have much (if any) problem with the Gunslinger set because both genders got a roughly equivalent number of pieces (I won't argue that males got the better end of things in that case, though), but I consider this Carnival of Light release unacceptable and have no qualms about voicing that opinion.
The only things they can do to change that opinion are to release a male-only costume set in the very near future or re-release the CoL set with a decent-sized portion of male costume pieces--several masks and the sash at minimum--added. I'd highly prefer the latter.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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Please, for the love of god, allow the Carnival of Light belt for male/huge characters. It's the closest we'll get to a Kheldian sash!
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I really enjoyed the arc. It was well done. I was actually quite pissed at the end of the arc.
Carnival of Light:
This pack fulfills a number of my standing costume requests, particularly the boots and masks. It's also pretty nicely free of bugs.
PLEASE DO NOT TIGHTEN THE FLARED BOOT TOPS! I've been wanting these for a while!
Edit: On Gender Disparity:
Yay! More parts for female models! There should be lots more packs like this, focusing exclusively on females.
I know you guys who want costumes for your male characters don't feel the same way, but I am QUITE happy with this pack and would like to see more.
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Moo, I truly consider you a good friend, but I WILL headbutt you if you ever say this in person. |
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
Yay! More parts for female models! There should be lots more packs like this, focusing exclusively on females.
I know you guys who want costumes for your male characters don't feel the same way, but I am QUITE happy with this pack and would like to see more. |
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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I'd probably deserve it, but you know how I like my female characters.| Moo, I truly consider you a good friend, but I WILL headbutt you if you ever say this in person. |
Right now, my character gender balance is maybe 6 males to 35+ females.
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There's nothing wrong with having a preference for one character gender over another, but there is something wrong with saying you're entitled to getting entire costume set releases for females only because of that preference. I don't say guys should get more costume options just because nearly all my characters are male; I say they should get nearly as many as females.|
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
I'd probably deserve it, but you know how I like my female characters.
Right now, my character gender balance is maybe 6 males to 35+ females. |
I'm okay with a slight preference for female options, since they do wear things that men don't and still wear most of the stuff that men do. But I'd say that men should get at least 8 or 9 costume pieces for every 10 women get. Giving women 10 and men nothing is not acceptable.
On a side note, I just checked... I actually do have 5 female characters, and none of them have been logged in since I went down the list to get everyone on my account the 7th Anniversary badges.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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No masks for male and huge?
Yay, first costume pack I definetly won´t buy... ever.
Hey Devs, now that you´re going with one-gender-only-costume-packs, how about a huge only Devouring Earth pack (I´m thinking Cthulhu-headed Devoured here)?
Or male only BP pack... you know with all those fancy masks in it.
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This is very well said, and covers how I see it.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
There's nothing wrong with having a preference for one character gender over another, but there is something wrong with saying you're entitled to getting entire costume set releases for females only because of that preference. I don't say guys should get more costume options just because nearly all my characters are male; I say they should get nearly as many as females.
I'm okay with a slight preference for female options, since they do wear things that men don't and still wear most of the stuff that men do. But I'd say that men should get at least 8 or 9 costume pieces for every 10 women get. Giving women 10 and men nothing is not acceptable. |
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Bah!|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
4. So why can't the male CoL be ported over to PCs? Because they physically can't. These are pieces originally made for NPCs and there is no way to 'port' them over in a way that works for clipping and scaling issues. NPC pieces have different geometries and different nodal hooks and different areas in which they mix and match. So, they would have to be re-created from scratch, which takes several months time.
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Give em a Strongman costume change device and a Paypal email address that they can use to tip the artists at.
I do think it should have cost less, since it only had female costume pieces. Otherwise, I really like it.
Agreed on the lack of male options. I really don't want to see a themed costume pack at the store that is one gender only.
It doesn't make much marketing sense anyway. The majority of my toons are male. There is nothing in this pack therefore that I am tempted to buy. And Hey Paragon! If I buy stuff you get money... see how that works? Now you get no dough. Very sad for the bean counters.
Shouldn't be surprised though. Its been 7 years and you still can't even get a cummerbund for the male tuxedo options. When it comes to costume options for guys, there is a surprising dearth of creativity and depth. Its all about the boobs I guess.
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Not every item is intended to appeal to every player. There are plenty of players with several female characters these costume options will be great for. |
Originally Posted by Handout
Agreed on the lack of male options. I really don't want to see a themed costume pack at the store that is one gender only.
It doesn't make much marketing sense anyway. The majority of my toons are male. There is nothing in this pack therefore that I am tempted to buy. And Hey Paragon! If I buy stuff you get money... see how that works? Now you get no dough. Very sad for the bean counters. Shouldn't be surprised though. Its been 7 years and you still can't even get a cummerbund for the male tuxedo options. When it comes to costume options for guys, there is a surprising dearth of creativity and depth. Its all about the boobs I guess. |
This costume set was also not designed as a costume set initially, it was ported from an existing NPC group that had all the fun bits on the female models and it can't be ported to male/huge, it has to be designed from the ground up which costs time/resources that are more likely spent on actual new content.
There's a surprising amount of wangst going on here.
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It doesn't bother me too much since I don't have any toons that'd really use the masks. But it's still annoying to hear everyone whine about equality and then it's okay when the males get the short hand.
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Oh snap people are angry... o.O
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http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
I've been waiting for these masks for so long. Bought the pack instantly. Not happy about some of the categories though.
Belt should be available when the jackets torso type is selected (not all jackets are long)
Mace should be available as a weapon for mace mastery like the ice/celestial mace.
IMHO Masks should be a face option not a detail option, detail2 is a terrible place for them.
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This is where we differ. In my mind, the ratio should be something like 3 to 2 rather than 9 to 10... as in 2 sets that contain roughly equivalent pieces and then a girls' only set.|
There's nothing wrong with having a preference for one character gender over another, but there is something wrong with saying you're entitled to getting entire costume set releases for females only because of that preference. I don't say guys should get more costume options just because nearly all my characters are male; I say they should get nearly as many as females. I'm okay with a slight preference for female options, since they do wear things that men don't and still wear most of the stuff that men do. But I'd say that men should get at least 8 or 9 costume pieces for every 10 women get. Giving women 10 and men nothing is not acceptable. |
This reflects my own spending preferences and prejudices. Clothes for me are strictly utilitarian, and Mrs. Moo prefers it that way. Meanwhile, her closet space takes up about 3x the size mine does. I probably spend roughly 5-6x the amount of money clothing her than I do myself.
I KNOW players who want want more costume options for male models, but it's hard for me to understand.
To put the finely crafted, stiletto heel on the other foot... Say, if a purely male pack came along, my reaction would be, 'Meh. This is the first pack I don't *have* to buy. I may use my stipend on extra costume slots.' I'm trying to wrap my brain around the idea that's not what everyone else sees, but it's difficult.
Mrs. Moo says this about my male characters: "They don't have costumes so much as work uniforms."
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| On a side note, I just checked... I actually do have 5 female characters, and none of them have been logged in since I went down the list to get everyone on my account the 7th Anniversary badges. |
Oh, did you not get the spoilers about this SSA? Well, how about MOAR SPOILERS on the same page?!
Ech...