A new archetype and a new powerset
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-01-17 10:00 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Wrong section, buddy.
But if you really want a defender tank, I've seen some pretty cool things done with one. We had a defender tank ITF. He basically told us to keep his recharge high with ageless and whatever or barrier, and he just kept using provoke and DPS to tank. Worked pretty well actually.
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Having played a Dark/Dark/Dark defender, its basically that minus the high hps. Basically it would be SERIOUSLY OP if it had the hps suggested. Some say its OP now.
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Originally Posted by Swift Swap
I would like an archetype who could be both a tank and a support play style. He would have a lot of hit points (lower than the tanker, but higher than the brute), the same level of melee damage as a tanker, but instead of a defense powerset, he would have a buff powerset to help himself and his allies. His inherent power should be a debuffing power with an area effect of 30 feet affecting all ennemies in it (called radiant hope).
As for the new powerset, I would like a dual melee weapons powerset, so that I can play a character who use claw and blade, claw and axe, claw and mace, axe and blade, axe and mace, two axes or two maces. This new powerset could be use with the new archetype previously mentionned. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
The OP's post makes it sound like he wants a Soldier of Arachnos. They can tank and buff the team.
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the key point, and I'd endorse as well, is a defender, without ranged attacks, but with a melee focus instead. Hit points levels aside, I think a support/melee or melee/support would be a lot of fun.
That said, VEATS do sorta fit that bill, but claws or mace isn't for everyone, so a new AT that can select form the current def/corr choices, and existing melee powersets sounds like a lot of fun, to me.
And, I think it would be possible to get the numbers right so as it wouldn't be OP or UP.
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It is possible. No idea if the devs will do such a thing though. :/|
Originally Posted by Madadh
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think the key point, and I'd endorse as well, is a defender, without ranged attacks, but with a melee focus instead. Hit points levels aside, I think a support/melee or melee/support would be a lot of fun.
That said, VEATS do sorta fit that bill, but claws or mace isn't for everyone, so a new AT that can select form the current def/corr choices, and existing melee powersets sounds like a lot of fun, to me. And, I think it would be possible to get the numbers right so as it wouldn't be OP or UP. |
But you could make a Dark Miasma Defender and use Air Superioty, Boxing, Kick, an Epic Melee attack and go for it! Grab provoke tho
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Originally Posted by Swift Swap
I would like an archetype who could be both a tank and a support play style. He would have a lot of hit points (lower than the tanker, but higher than the brute), the same level of melee damage as a tanker, but instead of a defense powerset, he would have a buff powerset to help himself and his allies. His inherent power should be a debuffing power with an area effect of 30 feet affecting all ennemies in it (called radiant hope).
As for the new powerset, I would like a dual melee weapons powerset, so that I can play a character who use claw and blade, claw and axe, claw and mace, axe and blade, axe and mace, two axes or two maces. This new powerset could be use with the new archetype previously mentionned. |
Build yourself a FF/*Something* defender. Cap your defenses and call it done.
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Sonic can do the bidness as well, because defenders get tank values out of Tough and Weave.
The reason tanks can tank is because of their primary set. What you are asking for is a armor/support set with no attacks.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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As to the first part of you post, I disagree, many ATs/specific builds can tank, and nothing but a tank has a personal armor type set as a primary. As someone else posted, tanking with a Dark3 is pretty effective if you know what you're doing. Rads can tank. Time types, too. Lots of trollers can. MMs are great tanks if played as such. Brutes and Scrappers, and even Widows and Soldiers can play melee-meat shield. I've never seen it, but I wouldn't be shocked to see a stalker do it, too (depending on their secondary). So, most everyone can tank, given a host of other factors, and a large percentage of everyone isn't a tanker. So, the main reason tankers can tank, is that they build to be able to, and they play with that as their goal with some degree of skill.|
Originally Posted by _Pine_
The reason tanks can tank is because of their primary set. What you are asking for is a armor/support set with no attacks.
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Granted, tankers are usually better at it than most others, all else being equal, but that still isn't because of their primary, it's because of their different scaling, and their inherent AT power.
As to the second part, well, unless the OP clarifies, we won't know specifically what he was looking for, but I got the impression that he wanted something melee oriented, with a support set instead of Armour, that could fill the role of a tank. I'd imagine that a Traps/Elec Melee, or a Time/Fire Melee, or Dark Miasma/Titan Weapons, etc, could all play the role of a tanker. Would they be better at it than a tank? Probably not, all else being equal. But a scrapper can't play the role of a tank as well as a tank, either, all else being equal, but I'd imagine many of us forumites have tanked with scrappers, so....
But, if you gave this hypothetical AT the defender damage scale, but melee attacks, and omitted the defender damage bonus, and gave it some version of Gauntlet as it's inherent, and gave it better than defender base numbers, and you might have a fairly serviceable yet not OP tank alternative. Granted, the new AT would require a few tweaks to the powersets ported to it, but it would be doable.
And I'm not lobbying hard for it, but I'd be game for it if the devs decided they liked the idea. I'm just saying that it's an intriguing idea, that does seem doable without breaking the game.
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Actually, I believe he's asking for Support/Melee with tanker health and assuming that large health and the right support powers would make an adequate tank. Which is interesting, but unlikely to happen.|
Originally Posted by _Pine_
The reason tanks can tank is because of their primary set. What you are asking for is a armor/support set with no attacks.
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To the OP: this game is built upon a small set of archetypes with a larger set of powersets on top. Archetypes aren't something that are created very often, and in fact only twice have standard archetypes been created: at the launch of the game, and at the launch of City of Villains. The only other archetypes that have ever been created besides those demonstrate the problem with creating new archetypes: the Kheldian hero side epic archetypes, and the villain side VEATs. Typically, an archetype has lots of primary and secondary options to fill out its design. The time necessary to create a whole set of primary and secondary options simply no longer exists as a practical matter. The HEATs and VEATs are both essentially locked to a single choice of primary and secondary deemed appropriate to that one archetype - in the case of the VEATs they are branching choices, but still a single main choice each.
Speculating about all new archetypes is an interesting mental exercise, but its unlikely to ever happen in the foreseeable future.
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I totally agree. I didn't mean to imply I thought it likely. In fact, on my list of things I think very unlikely, another new AT is near the top.. But, it is a fun exercise, and I think it is in theory more do-able than a lot of suggestions I've seen. But yeah, what Arc said, as is often the case, is good advice. Don't hold your breath...|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, I believe he's asking for Support/Melee with tanker health and assuming that large health and the right support powers would make an adequate tank. Which is interesting, but unlikely to happen.
To the OP: this game is built upon a small set of archetypes with a larger set of powersets on top. Archetypes aren't something that are created very often, and in fact only twice have standard archetypes been created: at the launch of the game, and at the launch of City of Villains. The only other archetypes that have ever been created besides those demonstrate the problem with creating new archetypes: the Kheldian hero side epic archetypes, and the villain side VEATs. Typically, an archetype has lots of primary and secondary options to fill out its design. The time necessary to create a whole set of primary and secondary options simply no longer exists as a practical matter. The HEATs and VEATs are both essentially locked to a single choice of primary and secondary deemed appropriate to that one archetype - in the case of the VEATs they are branching choices, but still a single main choice each. Speculating about all new archetypes is an interesting mental exercise, but its unlikely to ever happen in the foreseeable future. |
I also don't see them doing a mixed dual weapon powerset any time soon, either, but lately, I'm a bit distrusting of my instincts. They seem to be making a lot of things happen that I thought fairly unlikely.
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I can think of no reason why the devs would not make a mixed weapon powerset, beyond the normal disclaimer that powersets take a lot of resources to make and the devs have a limited amount of time and a long list of ideas to choose from, so any one particular idea is not very likely in general.
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Originally Posted by Madadh
I also don't see them doing a mixed dual weapon powerset any time soon, either, but lately, I'm a bit distrusting of my instincts. They seem to be making a lot of things happen that I thought fairly unlikely.
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[Dual Blades] and [Dual Pistols] are Dual Weapons... what are you thinking? Katana Gun melee? Chain Saw Rifles? Halberd Ballistas? My personal favorite: A BAZOOKA THAT SHOOTS FLAMING CHAINSAWS THAT GO NUCLEAR WHEN THEY EXPLODE!|
Originally Posted by Madadh
I also don't see them doing a mixed dual weapon powerset any time soon, either, but lately, I'm a bit distrusting of my instincts. They seem to be making a lot of things happen that I thought fairly unlikely.
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Tanking is more than just going into the mob first and not dying. Managing aggro, being able to take hits, KEEPING aggro are all important tasks for a tank.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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He was referring to *mixed* weapon sets, like the OP mentioned: i.e. "claw and blade, claw and axe, claw and mace, axe and blade, axe and mace."
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Originally Posted by _Pine_
[Dual Blades] and [Dual Pistols] are Dual Weapons... what are you thinking?
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I've not seen it done very much, but I've heard that Masterminds - with FF and using bodyguard mode - are capable of fighting in melee alongside their pets with pool powers. I imagine Time and possibly Dark could do the same. Provoke, when used frequently along with DPS, makes it easier to hold aggro. It is, therefore, theoretically possible to achieve a limited version of your vision. While any melee pets would work, I would suggest Demons. A new AT, as Arcanaville has stated, is effectively impossible.
Defender and VEAT options have already been mentioned. I will add that Radiation Emission could accomplish a tanking job, and Storm Summoning achieves a very different (but no less effective) style using knockback and the debuffs from Hurricane.
Your main trouble will be finding enough melee attacks. Some of the Patron/Ancillary pools have decent ones to help you out, so I'd look into those when developing your build. It would certainly be a unique playstyle, as I don't often see such characters running around in the cities.
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I've got a bit more than just a passing idea of the concept of tanking. If I'd blissfully unaware of these other important factors, I'd have stated that "anybody can tank, period." But I didn't say that; I admitted that tankers well played, and well build to be a tank, were the best, but many other ATs, if built to do so can tank effectively. Built to do so means having tools that allow one to keep and manage aggro.|
Originally Posted by _Pine_
Tanking is more than just going into the mob first and not dying. Managing aggro, being able to take hits, KEEPING aggro are all important tasks for a tank.
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Now that we've clarified that, and taken that as a given, many ATs can tank, and tankers, well played and well built will be the best able to fill that role. However, I'd rather have a dark def with a build that is good for tanking, and a player that is skilled at tanking with his D3, over a tanker that is clueless, and who neglected to take his aura or taunt.
And that's also why I'd advocate for any new pseudo tanky AT to have a version of gauntlet, as I recognize how much of an advantage having it is over not having it. Again, not like I expect to see any new ATs anytime soon, if ever.
I would like an archetype who could be both a tank and a support play style. He would have a lot of hit points (lower than the tanker, but higher than the brute), the same level of melee damage as a tanker, but instead of a defense powerset, he would have a buff powerset to help himself and his allies. His inherent power should be a debuffing power with an area effect of 30 feet affecting all ennemies in it (called radiant hope).
As for the new powerset, I would like a dual melee weapons powerset, so that I can play a character who use claw and blade, claw and axe, claw and mace, axe and blade, axe and mace, two axes or two maces. This new powerset could be use with the new archetype previously mentionned.