I can't say anything about Bots/Time and Bots/Traps.
Demons and Bots are like Res and Def. Trying to Compare the two is kinda hard.
Demons, High Res, Melee, T3 Is Slows for control. Demons is Great with sets that let you be in melee with no problem.
Bots, High Def, Range, T3 is AoE Monster. Bots are great for Range so sets that need you to be in melee can lower your cone powers.
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Currently playing: Mass Effect 3(PS3) Minecraft(X360) Skyrim(X360).
I still haven't made a /Time toon yet but I have a feeling it's going to be MM/time.
Having said that, /Time is a GREAT set. It has almost everything. Power Boost + Farsight is a great team defense buff.
/Trap still has decent mez protection and I believe /Trap can debuff resistance better once you have two acid mortars out.
In terms of effectiveness, I think /Time and /Trap are top notch for sure, along with /Dark.
I would probably go with Demon/Time just because /Time has a great pbaoe toggle debuff that fits nicely with Demon powers. I feel Demon/Time has more synergies than Robot/Time.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
In many ways, time does compare to traps. One significant aspect that has not been emphasized is the FFG providing mezz protection to those affected. This is especially critical to a mastermind getting mezzed and time juncture dropping. Also, on traps if you are mezzed, the acid mortar keeps popping, poison gas trap will go off, triage beacon heals. On time, while mezzed you have good old distortion field in place.
As aside, I have the question whether an Achilles Heal in Slowed Response will stack -res on -res. [drool]
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Looks like a /Time MM can give his henchmen a max of
4.1 (maneuvers)
5 (rch pets io)
5 (reg pets io)
21 (PB + Farsight)
--------------------
35.1% def
Not too shabby. Bots would need to subtract 5 since they can't slot recharge pets.
I just leveled a Controller to 50 with Time, so I can't claim hands-on experience with a Bots MM. Well, not exactly, it was an Ice troller, so 0 damage ability and I'd call in the cavalry of my bots/ (TA for the record) and just put the bots on aggressive and follow the troller, so I got some sense of Bots/Time. I have to say it is indeed "all that and a bag of chips".
It compares quite favorably to Traps with a notable exception: the -regen of PGT. Time Crawl + Time Stop provides -150% regen, far behind PGT's -1000%. AssBot though, has -regen to mask the issue for Time.
I'm not going to begin to really try to figure out what's "better" between Traps and Time. I will say it's fair to include Time in the conversation about the top performing MM secondaries, along with Traps. To get to the bottom line question for the OP "do you all think bots/time is equal to bots/traps". Instead of saying they're equal, I'll say bots/time ≈ bots/traps for approximately equal.
The main thing that bums me out about Time for MM is that the fantastic +rch buffs are wasted, at least for the pets.
As for Demons, I think adding 35% def to Demons, who are already sturdy with resists and heals, would result in impressively survivable pets. How do Demons compare to Bots? Quite favorably. Bots are Def + heals + kb while Demons are resists + heals + slows. I will say a plus for Demon/Time is insta-holding a boss with Time Stop + Demon Prince always leads off with a hold, so choose his target for the hold to hit.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
Can you powerboost the FFG? And if a pet ever dies it has to wait until farsight is back up.
Quote:
Yes, but since it summons a pet that runs a toggle, it follows the normal rule for powerboosting toggles: you only get the higher defense values until Power Boost wears off.
|
Originally Posted by Azucar_NA
Can you powerboost the FFG?
|
Quote:
I don't have a lvl 50 Robot and Demon. Both of them are at about 35ish. |
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
As for Demons, I think adding 35% def to Demons, who are already sturdy with resists and heals, would result in impressively survivable pets. How do Demons compare to Bots? Quite favorably. Bots are Def + heals + kb while Demons are resists + heals + slows. I will say a plus for Demon/Time is insta-holding a boss with Time Stop + Demon Prince always leads off with a hold, so choose his target for the hold to hit. |
Demon do a lot more damage IMO but Robot survives better (which translates into more damage) and Robot's -regen is more beneficial during long fights. In regular fights, Demons have very good damage especially most of their damage type are "exotic" (fire, ice, negative).
Robots have very good aoe damage especially when you combo it with aoe slow/immb.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
I got to "fix" this. There Exotic Dmg is Fire, Ice, and Hellfire (Fire/Toxic combo). They do not do Negative.
|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
In regular fights, Demons have very good damage especially most of their damage type are "exotic" (fire, ice, negative).
|
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Currently playing: Mass Effect 3(PS3) Minecraft(X360) Skyrim(X360).
Quote:
Anyone who says this does not know how to play traps correctly.|
Originally Posted by Purus
This occurred to me as I was reading Samuel Tow's post http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=281056. Traps is fairly useless on teams due to the high placement times etc etc but the one thing it does offer is ForceField Gen for +10% defence. Then I realised time has farsight for +9.38%
I then looked at it more and see a lot of similarities between the sets. Traps has more damage powers but time seems a better rounded set. They both have -def, -reg and -res. The heal power in time is better in time and time has better team buffs. So.......do you all think bots/time is equal to bots/traps?????? On a side note how do Demons compare as a primary to Bots |
END OF STORY.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
Quote:
Oh ok. I think Sccuccbus's cone attack is negative damage right? For some reasons, I thought Demon's hell fire is the same.
|
Originally Posted by OmniNogard
I got to "fix" this. There Exotic Dmg is Fire, Ice, and Hellfire (Fire/Toxic combo). They do not do Negative.
|
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Yes the Succubus (CoT) has, Hellish Bolts Ranged (Cone), Moderate Damage(Negative Energy), Knockback
Demon Summoning however dose not. It covers Slows and -Res. http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Demon_Summoning
Going to miss the fun and nice people here at CoH. Feel free to add me on PS3/XBox360
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Currently playing: Mass Effect 3(PS3) Minecraft(X360) Skyrim(X360).
Someone told me that when the Demons set was made, some of the powers managed to be skipped when adding the "ignore recharge buffs/debuffs" flag. So if this is true, a demon/time would benefit a little more than other primaries.
I deleted my demon/poison MM a while back, so I cannot test this claim.
If i recall that's been fixed, i had a Demon/Time when the open beta for the set happen and noticed one pet always attacked faster then the other. On live my Demon/Time is not having 'faster' pets.
Going to miss the fun and nice people here at CoH. Feel free to add me on PS3/XBox360
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Currently playing: Mass Effect 3(PS3) Minecraft(X360) Skyrim(X360).
Quote:
They are not talking about Traps, they are mostly talking about Devices and out of combat powers. Traps is amazing, I love my DP/Traps and she has no issues keeping up with the team. Well my AR/DEV is a different story though....|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Anyone who says this does not know how to play traps correctly.
END OF STORY. |
On topic: I rolled a Demon/Time and I think that will be the one time char I can stick with. So much fun.
Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
I recall a couple of points that have been brought up in the past which made some sense against time.
1. Debuffs have a cap limit which Time relies upon.
2. Time is weak against mezz. Now Clarion incarnate helps this of course. But still its an issue.
My question is, does anyone have a 50 Demon or Bot Time and could they HONESTLY respond what issues they do or do not have with mezzing leveling up and at 50. Personally at level 50 with my Robot Traps I do get mezzed but its usually for brief moment. I see my head drop down and then I wake back up, but nothing that would break my stride.
The issue with being mezz of course is toggles drop. Traps does not have that issue.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
I 'never' really HAD a problem being mez'd on my way to 50 with both my Demon/Poison and Bots/Dark.
If you 'ask' me Mez's are the least of the MMs worrys. Just stay in Bodyguard mode. The ONLY 'bad' Mez is a LONG Mez, to the point where your pets are dying and you're still stun/held.
There is a few set bonus and Global "Procs" that give Res to Mez to cut down how long you're mez'd.
Res IO: Impervious Skin: MezRes 7.5% Stackable up to 5 if you have the Res powers to slot it in.
ToHit IO: Adjusted Targeting: 6 Slot for more 7.5% (unsure on that part, if stackable with the Skin or not).
There are more set bonus that cover a single mez (Confuse or Stun or Held, etc)
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Currently playing: Mass Effect 3(PS3) Minecraft(X360) Skyrim(X360).
Quote:
My Demons/Time hasn't hit 50 yet, but starting around the time you can have farsight (near)perma (so lvl 29, 3 recharge in farsight brings it's recharge down to 120s) most mezzes won't hit you through the combined awesomeness of farsight and time's juncture (which has an unbuffed equivalent of 9% def).|
Originally Posted by plainguy
I recall a couple of points that have been brought up in the past which made some sense against time.
1. Debuffs have a cap limit which Time relies upon. 2. Time is weak against mezz. Now Clarion incarnate helps this of course. But still its an issue. My question is, does anyone have a 50 Demon or Bot Time and could they HONESTLY respond what issues they do or do not have with mezzing leveling up and at 50. Personally at level 50 with my Robot Traps I do get mezzed but its usually for brief moment. I see my head drop down and then I wake back up, but nothing that would break my stride. The issue with being mezz of course is toggles drop. Traps does not have that issue. |
And as OmniNogard says, the only time getting mezzed is bad is when the mez is way too long
@Treibhireas on Defiant, Exalted and Freedom
Quote:
Well, that's the problem, isn't it? The mezzes are too dam long! |
Originally Posted by Thoran_EU
And as OmniNogard says, the only time getting mezzed is bad is when the mez is way too long
|
"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
My Bots/Time MM is now done with iTrials and here is where she sits:
-Softcapped DEF to EVERYTHING BUT PSI for PVE content
-Softcapped to S/L/E/NE for iTrial content
-Psi DEF is at 42% so pretty near softcap for PVE
My Bots are 55%+ DEF to everything but Psi (38% there)
The above was accomplished via several permas and IO bonuses:
-PermaHasten
-Perma ChronoShift
-Perma Powerboosted Farsight (that's +26.15% DEF to EVERYTHING right there thanks to Enzyme slotting in PB)
-Several bonuses from IO's
-The shield from Bots
Add to the above whatever other -ToHit bonus I am getting from Times Juncture and I'm either softcapped to everything or way past the softcap on everything for iTrials.
For Incarnates I went with:
-Alpha: Agility T4 (Didn't need any more defense but took it so I could get the +RCHG and +ENDRECOVERY)
-Destiny: Clarion T4 (Mezz protection was my only weakness, although I seldom got mezzed given I'm softcapped Defense to everything...Clarion now covers it)
-Interface: Reactive T4 (meshes well with Bot fire damage)
-Judgement: Ion T4 (once I've got the spawn locked down, this is handy)
-Lore: Warworks T4 (Moar damage)
Seriously, on +4/x8 I'm a one girl wrecking crew. Against anything, mezzers included. I'm a combat teleporter so I just TP into middle of spawn and let the bots open from range. If I happen to get mezzed, my Bots have pulled aggro by that time so I just stand there waiting for the mezz to wear off....and my IO slotting has provided some mess resistance to help the durations there. Seriously....I played this 1-50 and Mezzing wasn't ever a problem. On iTrials I've been the tank to pull Nightie and Siege and to tank the AV's. I've been last toon standing on UG trial and NTN trial more times than I can count, outlasting even the stoners. Yes, the streakbreaker means I get hit now and then but my self-heal (which is up again before it drops the trickle-heal) is there to cover me when that happens. I've not died in weeks of play.
I've posted my build elsewhere if you want it. I don't even know what my bonuses from iPowers are giving me now but my recharge is showing 185% before Agility bonus applied. My biggest issue leveling wasn't mezz but END management. I slotted all the unique +END IO's early and still had issues with it up until I got T4 Agility. I actually got to T3 Cardiac originally, but switched to Agility and discovered that the +ENDRECOVERY was better for me than the reduction in END cost from Cardiac.
This is easily the most powerful MM build I've ever made, way way WAY outperforming my Bots/FF and Bots/Traps build. I was just as safe on my Bots/Trap build (and the mez protection was a huge plus) but nowhere near as fast of a playstyle. Bots/Time is non-stop action. Seriously recommended.
With all the PBAOE and targeted AOE stuff it does make sense to do the team teleport idea.. Good idea there..
Look if your telling me you can handle 4/8 solo. What more is there really.. Good enough for me..
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
Actually, it's not Team Teleport....just teleport self. The trick is to get the bots to open up from range, then close for melee after I've got everything debuffed. Team Teleport makes them go to melee too fast and then they use their lower damage attacks. My maxed defense keeps me safe and they close the distance quickly in case I TP out of bodyguard range.
This occurred to me as I was reading Samuel Tow's post http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=281056. Traps is fairly useless on teams due to the high placement times etc etc but the one thing it does offer is ForceField Gen for +10% defence. Then I realised time has farsight for +9.38%
I then looked at it more and see a lot of similarities between the sets. Traps has more damage powers but time seems a better rounded set. They both have -def, -reg and -res. The heal power in time is better in time and time has better team buffs.
So.......do you all think bots/time is equal to bots/traps??????
On a side note how do Demons compare as a primary to Bots