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It's actually doable using a SO build, doable without temps. This is all prior to incarnates too. If you think of getting by simply resorting to Aid self alone expect to die a lot. People who think that heals are needed are sitting duck type players. We had a total of 5 defeats between us throughout the whole thing. Aid Self is just a back up tool that won't help you out of every scrape.|
Originally Posted by kangaroo120y
Did you take Aid self on your SR? or rebirth, or barrier i guess for the +res, I really like my SR scrapper, but despite positional defenses in the 50's , regular content will sometimes wipe him out where my other scrappers wouldn't faulter. I tried to build for +regen but I found you just couldn't get enough regen to make a difference, so I took aid self, and in some situations, that doesn't work either.
Mind you, something I feel like i'm asking too much of some of my characters, my minimum is always x8 as I love mob maulin so thats usuaully a LOT of seperate attacks to fill up that 5% rule. Perhaps I should just keep on going with it and pick up rebirth. he is alpha'ed but i haven't gotten too much further than that  For an Ma/Sr, let me know what you think the best setup is and i'll see what kind of tweaking I need to do |
MA/SR is scrapper section and I don't know if any of them have a single confront power between them.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I read further up someone saying that these heroes can't be split. You can split them. What can be said perhaps is that's impractical to expect to do them 1 at a time. How about 2 or 3? So there is a split.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
If anything, it comes down to maths. 4 avs with 8% chance to hit you. Or 8 heroes, with 8% chance to hit you. Doesnt matter what happens..the 8 will hit you more.
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STF AVs can be split into one by one. A Scrapper can be made to comfortably handle 2 at a time. A Brute, 4 at a time, oh so yes a Tank therefore is overkill.
Nobody should need a Tank, Tanks are there to smooth the ride by decreasing worries and increasing efficiency.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Question:
Is it fair to come out and tell people how to do everything for any team make up with any tanker or is it fair to let people have the chance that older players had at being able to discover things for themselves?
If someone newer to the game discovered something in 2 hours that took me 4 hours then they're a better/luckier person than I.
If every bit of info was laid out on a plate and it was all too easy for everyone people will leave the game.
I asked this question on the European Forums when I was tanking Lord Recluse unaided for over an hour in 2006.
People said then they would rather not know.
I have always been about trying to eliminate that thinking of "If I can't do it no one can" or "I actually don't know, it looks seriously impossible, therefore it is impossible".
I like the words "improbable yet plausible" myself.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
Was just arguing about this with a friend. If you look at stf vs rsf, in a bubble..rsf IS harder. The fact people still fail stf (and my friend said shes failed more) is more due to people being idiots and having NO idea of the type of team make up a smooth STF actually NEEDS. That and stupid people wanting to take out towers in the wrong order.
And how can you even compare the final fights? 8 Heroes, which you cant split up, and buff each other...vs ONE av that you can 'tank' with a jetpack?? Such an epic fight that. |
there's a huge "culture" issue with the STF and RSF.
the RSF, prior to incarnates and IOs, was possibly the hardest TF/SF in the game. running it redside without 5-6 corrs and a brute with one pity spot was pretty much the only option if you wanted a 100% assured smooth run with a decent time.
the STF was hard for the first 3 months before people got their IO'd builds together. after that, it was laughable compared to what it was like to run an RSF with only SOs/HOs.
so yeah, my point is; you can see it in the average team make-up for an RSF, people still know that anything besides buffers/debuffers and 1 tank is a waste. that's not the case with the STF, because people never had to run it prior to IOs being introduced. "bring what you want" is more common on an STF.
oh yeah, and when i tank an RSF on my stoner, i still cap out all my psi resists before jumping in.
your team should be able to kill sister and numi before your allotted oranges are depleted.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
1) "Most Brutes" doesn't usually include a purely defense based Brute on a PUG (SD, SR, EA). It's doable, but its rougher. You'll see a lot of Invulns, Stones (most PUGs want Stone, not required), Ela, etc.
2) The typical load out that sees "Brutes" doing this is really the 6-7 corrs that are there. Buffs, Debuffs, ST/AoE Damage and Scourge - they bring it all. The Corrs do all of the heavy lifting, the Brute's job is to clump things together and try not to die. Incarnate powers can reduce the need for #2, and the team was relatively well balanced in theory, in reality he had Incarnate softcapped defenses and therefore gained very little from the +DEF & -To Hit from the VEAT, the Storm, the Cold & the Time. |
The point was pretty much if they stopped and grabbed oranges as the OP mentioned, any brute (and Tank), be it SR, EA, Shield or whatever can ride the 90% res cap to all damage for several minutes. I know I've tanked the RSF on my Elec tank using the wedding band to cap out the rest of my damage res (Psi specifiically) and never in the random assortment of teams, really broke a sweat with the final encounter. So if a team with 2 aggro management people, using oranges to acchieve the same level of res survivability (With better defense) are wiping multiple times, something is off. Add onto that they had a debuff heavy team.
I can understanding dropping 1 or 2, going back for more oranges, then having at it again. With the assortment of Aggro management, buffs, and debuffs (defense for the rest of the team, they all should have been softcapped to everything) and oranges for the tank/brute and still wiping suggests it was player error, not something insufficent when it came to team make up / powerset capabilities.
Part of the problem here is you're taking an Incarnate softcap build into non-Incarnate content, meaning a significant portion of your build/set bonuses is worthless outside of Incarnate content.
Make a secondary build that puts you at 45-48% Defense, and use your build and set bonus opportunities to build for other things, like Psi Resistance/Defense, Hit Points, Regeneration, that kind of thing.
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You're asking a lot from the player, if they are expected to carry enough orange inspirations to get them to 90% res cap from 0%, or 22-24% SM/L Res and 0% to everything else.|
Originally Posted by MrLiberty
The point was pretty much if they stopped and grabbed oranges as the OP mentioned, any brute (and Tank), be it SR, EA, Shield or whatever can ride the 90% res cap to all damage for several minutes.
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The fight lasts longer then one minute, and your team either has the chops to down the first handful of true problem. Even if you fill your entire tray and forego green insps, you can still only carry 20 of them and pull that off for about 2 minutes.
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Originally Posted by MrLiberty
I know I've tanked the RSF on my Elec tank using the wedding band to cap out the rest of my damage res (Psi specifiically) and never in the random assortment of teams, really broke a sweat with the final encounter.
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Player error certainly counts for a lot, but these are still 8 L54 AVs packing debuffs, and some hard hitting AoE powers.
Which boils it down to the options I already gave. A support (especially Corr) heavy team or a team comprised of highly slotted incarnates (which is basically alternative support).
Player tactics do count a lot as well.
Summoning lore pets, buffing and then keeping your team wide destiny use staggered to maximize benefits of the first 30s of each destiny buff should see any team capable of it, melting the FP in a minute or two maximum.
I've done it leading a team of all VEATs.
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if you have to carry that many oranges, it means you should have someone with a nice heal to back you up and make up for whatever other candy you aren't bringing. if not, you don't really deserve to complete the SF on account of being too dumb to pick a decent team.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
You're asking a lot from the player, if they are expected to carry enough orange inspirations to get them to 90% res cap from 0%, or 22-24% SM/L Res and 0% to everything else.
The fight lasts longer then one minute, and your team either has the chops to down the first handful of true problem. Even if you fill your entire tray and forego green insps, you can still only carry 20 of them and pull that off for about 2 minutes. |
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Its not so much what I'm asking or even suggesting, as the OP mentioned :|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
You're asking a lot from the player, if they are expected to carry enough orange inspirations to get them to 90% res cap from 0%, or 22-24% SM/L Res and 0% to everything else.
The fight lasts longer then one minute, and your team either has the chops to down the first handful of true problem. Even if you fill your entire tray and forego green insps, you can still only carry 20 of them and pull that off for about 2 minutes. |
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| We repeated this cycle 4 or 5 times, trying different things like loading up on oranges |
Worst case, all small oranges you are still looking at 2 minutes of hard cap resistances to drop an AV. Toss in some mediums and larges if you visit an SG base or something and you've got more time. It was suggested/hinted at though, that they were still wiping despite eating a lot of oranges.
This is all nice and dandy talking about which one is harder and which one is easier. But the fact is u can do the STF with any type of team out there, heck in the last month I have ran a speed MoSFT with no problems what so ever. But the OP is talking bout the RSF which I have tanked before on my FA/Fire tank. We did pull 1 AV at a time and this was before the incarnates came out right after GR came out. Now here is something else ppl seem to keep forgetting about from my take it was not a Mo so why did u not get some temps to help u folks if you did not had that many debuffers? IE Shivas, and Nukes? Couple of Heaveys would of helped as well. Of course from listing to your description and like said befor yes before GR came out the RSF had to rely on Brutes to hold Aggro and I have seen it done before with only 1 count it 1 cor on team and a brute with not much res to help them out. I was the one on the cor and it was a dark cor. So it goes back to luck, sometimes u do not get the luck of the draw sort of speak. I have ran it a few times on different toons and make up. Now the funny thing is my FA/fire tank has a KB prot of 12 and both states and BaB could not KB me, but sister put me on my butt a few times. Try to figure that one out.
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Originally Posted by LSK
Now the funny thing is my FA/fire tank has a KB prot of 12 and both states and BaB could not KB me, but sister put me on my butt a few times. Try to figure that one out.
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http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Knockbac...ockback_Powers
Although, not all the figures are right on that list. Whoever does it should go down the list and double check them.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
In reply to the OP :
I could be wrong on that (wouldn't be the first time - Hi Kioshi !) so feel free to correct me, but although you can't rely on defense to drop the ToHit of AV's under 9%, can't you directly debuff it? You had a stormy in the team, and Hurricane is a HUGE ToHit debuff - he could have just skimmed the AV's once every 10 seconds and lowered their ToHit.
Even with the AV's resistance, they'd have lost a couple percents at least, which would have increased your statistical survivability by a significant factor (from 9% to 5% ToHit is almost half chances of getting hit...)
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Higher rank foes (i.e. bosses, AVs, etc.) have higher base tohit chances. You'd need to see the whole tohit formula and play with some numbers to see how that works, but basically even with every player on the server providing tohit debuffs on the AV and defense buffs to the tank, a level 53 AV will ALWAYS have a 9.75% chance to hit you. A level 54, such as on the STF, has a 10.5% chance (assuming you aren't level shifted, if so its 9.1% and 9.75% respectively). |
Originally Posted by Netphenix5
Even with the AV's resistance, they'd have lost a couple percents at least, which would have increased your statistical survivability by a significant factor (from 9% to 5% ToHit is almost half chances of getting hit...)
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For more information on tohit and defense, see Arcanaville's guide; she knows more about it then anyone, including most (possibly all) of the devs, and it was due to her input that the basic formula used by the game was changed to the form it takes now. It used to be even worse for SR. . .
Well she obviously knows more about it than me, because I can't wrap my brain around it - though it might be sleep deprivation getting in the way. 
I'll just take your word for it then, though I find weird that this aspect of AVs can't in essence be debuffed to any relevant degree. Seems really unfair to defense-based sets like SR or Ice - not to mention Dark sets which would lose their main mitigation.
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No, that's not how it works any more. It used to work that way, but just around the Global Defense Reduction, they changed that. I don't remember the order it went, but within a few months of the GDR, enemy to-hit was set to a standard of 50% for all enemies within plus or minus four levels.|
Originally Posted by Scientist
Higher rank foes (i.e. bosses, AVs, etc.) have higher base tohit chances.
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Now... Enemy accuracy is a different matter. Higher rank foes do have different accuracy bonuses. So there are enemies you'll never get down to a 5% chance to-hit.
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There is not one form of mitigation for Tankers to lean on, one of the reasons why I suggest taunt is because taunt does do -range and that used with limiting AVs travel powers can seriously mess with an AVs DPS potential whilst never losing aggro.|
Originally Posted by Netphenix5
. Seems really unfair to defense-based sets like SR or Ice - not to mention Dark sets which would lose their main mitigation.
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People tend to think in terms of damage, heals, resistances and defense. Like they were always the only thing to rely on. It's that experience in other games and belief that all games are meant to be essentially the same clones of eachother is whats wrong. Members of the playerbase just hold themselves back by not looking at everything on offer.
If I couldn't tank the LRSF with an SR scrapper for a lesser team then I would delete all my toons before closing my account. 9/10 the tools were available.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
There is not one form of mitigation for Tankers to lean on, one of the reasons why I suggest taunt is because taunt does do -range and that used with limiting AVs travel powers can seriously mess with an AVs DPS potential whilst never losing aggro.
People tend to think in terms of damage, heals, resistances and defense. Like they were always the only thing to rely on. It's that experience in other games and belief that all games are meant to be essentially the same clones of eachother is whats wrong. Members of the playerbase just hold themselves back by not looking at everything on offer. If I couldn't tank the LRSF with an SR scrapper for a lesser team then I would delete all my toons before closing my account. 9/10 the tools were available. |
I am a firm believer in using all of the tools the team has to offer. I also believe that sometimes things just don't click. I've been on PUGs who cruised the ITF until the Rommi fight because of fatigue, off power picks or we just couldn't seem to coordinate well. I've also been on PUGs where everything just seemed to mesh from the players to the ATs to the powers chosen.
I used to read all the time about a failed TF and someone would say 'We couldn't find a Rad' or some such. Kin used to be the go-to set for a lot of high-end stuff because of FS and all the rest of the toys it has. Rad and Kin are both still good but you don't hear people hunting for them for a specific task as much any more.
I don't like the idea that you need a spec-built team to do anything in this game. With enough buffs a Blaster can Tank at this point. If the AVs use cheater mechanics then ok...try something else. The new Team Insps should be looked at if nothing else.
Over, under, around or through...there is always a way. The winner is the one who doesn't give up.
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Sorry, you are correct, I used the wrong term, higher rank foes have a higher accuracy, not a higher base tohit. The net "chance to hit you" numbers I mentioned because of this factor are correct though, I believe. |
Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
No, that's not how it works any more. It used to work that way, but just around the Global Defense Reduction, they changed that. I don't remember the order it went, but within a few months of the GDR, enemy to-hit was set to a standard of 50% for all enemies within plus or minus four levels.
Now... Enemy accuracy is a different matter. Higher rank foes do have different accuracy bonuses. So there are enemies you'll never get down to a 5% chance to-hit. |
Where I have seen a team like that fail even with insps on the STF (which I've done a lot more then the RSF) is that if the dps/buff/debuff part of the team isn't up to snuff, the insps don't keep the "tank", be it tank or brute or whatever, alive for the many minutes it takes for the team to start dropping AVs before the insps run out. I was on a STF, for example, long before Incarnates, where the only -resist debuff was a /storm controller. OK, that would normally work, if they were competent and had a good build, but they never used Freezing Rain unless specially requested in chat a couple of times for each individual casting, and I'm guessing they had no recharge, because it was like once every few minutes. The slower the AV killing on that, the more often Ghost Widow gets to hit with her haxxor hold, and the more Scirrocco AoEs all the support, and the more the AVs get to heal up, and the longer it goes. We were well over two hours on the last mission.
Similarly I was on a early Khan where the only buff/debuff was one kin, who (1) kept standing next to the AV and dying, despite repeated requests not to stand there, and (2) only used Fulcrum Shift or Siphon Power on special request. Kins have reasons to stand in melee, but not just to blast. I was so wishing I had my rad defender along on either of those instead of the Warshade, who is great at spawn destroying but not the best in a lone AV fight. The team gave up, it was so slow to take Khan down.
Thats one reason I prefer playing support, and work a lot on good IO builds for them, on a good team you can beat anything on SOs, but the worse the team gets the more load one or two characters may have to carry and then the build and powers start making a big difference. And I've been on a number of PUGs where nobody on the team really seems to know why they are sometimes winning and other times losing.
I can not count the number of times I keep hearing this even in this thread seems like oh we could of done it if we had debuffs. I have been on countless TFs/SFs with out a support toon and completed it. I have done Lot of TT where we do a TF with nothing but tanks and win. I also been on an all blaster ITF and won. So it all comes down to tactics and how everyone play there toons. I have been on failed TFs/SFs where we did had the debuffs but still could not take down the final AV. Prine example on an SFT once we had my storm troller, a kin, rad and a emp but we could not take out GW, following day we did not had the rad but same ppl on the team ( the one with rad switched to a blaster) and we went in there like it was nothing. We still failed the Mo part of it since GW took out the blaster with 1 hit but we completed it. Again it comes down to luck some times and how each player plays there toon.
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Agreed
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Originally Posted by LSK
Again it comes down to luck some times and how each player plays there toon.
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Tribal Arc Shield/Elec/Mu/Spiritual Tanker
If it all comes down to luck and how people play...WHY was the only way to do a reliable rsf, for so long, the brute/corrs or mind dom way? That is like saying all those other runs with different team make ups contained unlucky and/or crap players.
Sure, luck helps. Team mates not being idiots help. But I would rather have 4 unlucky, just decent corrs than 4 brilliant stalkers anyday.
It still goes back to people having no idea how to build teams.
And to the person who said it was too much too expect the rsf 'tank' to be constantly using oranges....well, that IS how it used to be done. Collect tier 2 and 3 purples/ojs throughout the rsf, the have a number of the corrs standing below the brute, feeding him MORE as needed. So it really is not too much to ask that one person uses them.
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Um funny i did a RSF a few years back with no support toons and i was on my brute with no purples or orange inspirations at all, and to top it all off the whole team make up was basically damage dealers. We all had nukes, and we all had shivas but most of the team was on either a brute or a stalker plus we had 2 doms that was not a mind dom, one was a ice/fire dom the other was a plant fire dom. Again it goes back to tactics like i mentioned.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
If it all comes down to luck and how people play...WHY was the only way to do a reliable rsf, for so long, the brute/corrs or mind dom way? That is like saying all those other runs with different team make ups contained unlucky and/or crap players.
Sure, luck helps. Team mates not being idiots help. But I would rather have 4 unlucky, just decent corrs than 4 brilliant stalkers anyday. It still goes back to people having no idea how to build teams. And to the person who said it was too much too expect the rsf 'tank' to be constantly using oranges....well, that IS how it used to be done. Collect tier 2 and 3 purples/ojs throughout the rsf, the have a number of the corrs standing below the brute, feeding him MORE as needed. So it really is not too much to ask that one person uses them. |
Heavy support either covers up potential flaws or ensures tank and spank works which is great when thats all that people know how to do. There is always an element of luck involved in anything. You have to go about minimizing it, the tactful will have an idea of how to do that with any team and the less tactful well they're usually, typically the ones "needing" certain types of support to cover up the holes. Unless its a speed run basically crying out for certain types is a cry to cover up the cracks in tactfulness.
LSK that Rad who changed to the Blaster didn't happen to be the Blaster who died on GW did it?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
If you are incarnate softcapped and brought a tray of oranges, and had a cold dom (who was possibly hitting you with frostwork) you are many times more survivable than most brutes who have done the same thing for years with little to no trouble.
2) The typical load out that sees "Brutes" doing this is really the 6-7 corrs that are there. Buffs, Debuffs, ST/AoE Damage and Scourge - they bring it all. The Corrs do all of the heavy lifting, the Brute's job is to clump things together and try not to die.
Incarnate powers can reduce the need for #2, and the team was relatively well balanced in theory, in reality he had Incarnate softcapped defenses and therefore gained very little from the +DEF & -To Hit from the VEAT, the Storm, the Cold & the Time.