Want to see an awesome and totally relevant flowchart?
http://www.buzzfeed.com/burnred/a-fl...-if-youre-281t
Ta da!
's doesn't make things plural.
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There's nothing wrong with Brutes stealing some aggro, they benefit from it.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
I'd actually like to see tankers have superior generation control compared to brutes and scrappers. Technically they already do, but it's still possible for a heavy-taunting brute to pull aggro off a tank that isn't spamming Taunt. As such, I'd like to see the taunt magnitude for tanks elevated slightly. In the Taunt power itself, in the Taunt component of their aura, and Gauntlet. I'm not saying double, triple or quadruple. But have it so that people have to actually WORK to strip aggro off. Sure, a damage increase would be nice. But I'll take better combat control any day of the week.
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I see what you're implying, but that has no bearing. My point stands. The caps are the same regardless of the power set. The more damage and defensive buffs that are added to the game, via the Incarnate system, temp powers or whatever, the easier it will be for *all* Tankers and Brutes to hit their caps. You don't think they're going to suddenly stop adding both kinds, do you?|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Johnny, what sets are these three Tankers of yours using that are routinely at the damage cap?
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Of course the outlier sets for Tankers will get there first, but even they shouldn't be hitting the damage cap when comparable Brutes retain more head room before they get no benefit from improving offensively AND get nearly the same defensive potential, minus 10% max HP.
The second any Tanker hit the damage cap my point is justified.
They have no more room to grow offensively from straight damage. Brute damage will keep going way past that point, like 80% further IIRC. Meanwhile, both Tanker and have very similar maximum defensive potentials they can ever reach, only differing with 10% max HP.
So, tell me, what quality Tankers do you have that don't routinely hit the damage cap on Leagues or for that matter, when teamed? And, just to be clear, you do know that even if you monitor damage buffs with Combat Attributes, you're hitting the cap well before the numbers turn blue; it doesn't take Enhancements into consideration.
As it stands, Fulcrum Shift may as well not even exist for most of my Tanker stable. Meanwhile, my Brute on the same League does get the full benefit from two Kins. And he's NOT dieing, same as my Tanker, but is hitting much harder.
If I didn't care about Tankers, I'd just play the Brute. He wins. End of story.
But I do care about Tankers and I am capable of seeing there's a disparity and something inherently unfair about the situation with their potential compared to Brutes and Scrappers, so I'm trying to remedy it.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You still haven't answered my question.
Since you keep saying that tanker's survivability advantage is irrelevant, would you accept a reduction in tanker survivability -or- a buff to scrapper survivability in return for more damage potential on tanks? |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
And you never did answer my question.
I'll repeat it one more time: Since you keep insisting that the mitigation advantage tanks have is unnecessary, would you be willing to accept a reduction to it in return for more damage. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Which leads to a follow up question:
If that mitigation advantage is so unnecessary, why are you unwilling to give it up? I think it's because yo know damn well that it DOES make a difference, and you want to have your damage without giving up your mitigation. |
I wonder if Claws will get an answer to this.
I've asked a few times as well, it's very curious that JB has not answered us.
Maybe he just missed it, with all the excitement this thread has generated.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I don't care much about getting more survivability because that's easy. Barrier, Rebirth. I don't even bother with Tough and Weave. Never had to since issue 12 or so.
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Gotcha.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Oh, wait, maybe I answered my own question. Competent players aren't going to take their Tankers this far. They're going to work on their Brutes who have nearly the same defensive potential at caps (minus 10% max HP) but have way more damage potential than Tankers.
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The new softcap is 59%, in case you haven't been paying attention.
We're also back to your AT THE CAPS scenario, without acknowledging that only 3 sets (including your pet set of course, which is the main reason why this makes you upset) can even get to the Brute HP cap on their own (Invuln, Stone, Regen).
So you don't need tough and weave, you don't need barrier or Rebirth.
Without those, you are not dying compared to Brutes & Scrappers who do need tough & weave and do need rebirth or barrier. (lol?)
Because you are a competent player, and don't need any more meaningless mitigation (your words)
Ok, I'm with you so far.
So in order to get this higher damage boost that you feel tankers (really, just your tankers, your SS tankers, the ones that take musculature) need...
How much of your meaningless mitigation, that allows you to survive on Incarnate Trials without Tough, Weave, Barrier or Rebirth, are you willing to give up in order to get a nice damage boost?
We have to ask this, because those options are not barred from you - you can always take them - but no Brute or Scrapper will suddenly get an extra 25% Base DEF, RES and HP to build off of.`
I hope you didn't miss it that time, I'd hate to think Claws and I are simply wasting our breath...
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Ok, even I have to take out a calculator now, Encino man.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
I'd actually like to see tankers have superior generation control compared to brutes and scrappers. Technically they already do, but it's still possible for a heavy-taunting brute to pull aggro off a tank that isn't spamming Taunt. As such, I'd like to see the taunt magnitude for tanks elevated slightly.
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On a good team, you don't want to fight with the Brute for aggro - you want to round up enough enemies so both of you are saturated with enemies.
This won't help JB either, because he doesn't want to protect the team and especially not those nasty Bruteses and Scrappers - they get protection from the precious and get to deal damage while they are safe. We hates them!! WE HATES THEM PRECIOUS!!!!!
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That was more or less correct. Technically, while recharge matters to a single attack, what determines its overall damage over time is its damage per cycle. I'm assuming that's what you meant by "recharge matters." But in terms of optimal attack chains, the best heuristic we have is to use your highest DPA attacks first, and fill with descending DPA until you're full. But that heuristic doesn't always work perfectly. It can happen, for example, at a given recharge, that when you try to construct a chain you end up with 1.5 seconds to go to fill, and you have one attack that does 0.9 DPA and has total time of 1.2 seconds and another attack that does 0.75 DPA and has a total time of 1.5 seconds. Using the better one might leave you with a 0.3 sec gap, and actually end up worse than using the slightly lower DPA attack that fills the chain completely. Or sometimes the reverse is true: its better to use a lower DPA attack because its also shorter, while the better DPA attack is so long its far longer than it needs to be and while its better DPA its still lower than the top attacks. In the old days before it was buffed and made the point moot, some dark melee chains included siphon life even though its DPA was lower than the alternative, because the alternative was shadow maul and its total duration lowered the chain's overall DPS.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
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But it's MY aggro! Mine! MINE I TELL YOU!|
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
There's nothing wrong with Brutes stealing some aggro, they benefit from it.
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MINEMINEMINEMINEMINE!
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I dunno about Johnny, but my answer here is "zero". I don't want to HAVE TO rely on ancillary and I ESPECIALLY don't want to have to rely on Incarnate powers to cap myself.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
How much of your meaningless mitigation, that allows you to survive on Incarnate Trials without Tough, Weave, Barrier or Rebirth, are you willing to give up in order to get a nice damage boost?
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I can only assume you're talking about SS with double Rage as if it were the only possible build, since no other set can even come close to permanently damage capped. But let's pretend every set does, for a moment. So you get your Musculature, and you're capped. You then proceed to Judgement: adds a new attack, damage cap not an issue. Interface: adds a DoT, damage cap not an issue. Lore: Summons pets, damage cap not an issue. Destiny: Has few offensive options at all, but if you're really pushing for that, you can get Ageless to boost recharge, and so... the damage cap isn't an issue.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I was using that as an example that even by the first Incarnate slot in, those tanks are already against the wall.
[...] And I'm against or getting near the damage cap and I didn't even build specifically for damage |
Hypothetically, future slots might include damage buffs. So those would potentially run into the damage cap. In that case, you can adjust your build to not double up on Rage, in which case you get fewer crashes, which means you do more damage overall.
So really, you aren't up against the wall for damage at all. You're much less against the wall than, say, a Kinetics Defender, who doesn't even need incarnate powers or IOs to run into the damage cap.
By the way, if you're running stacked Rage, with Musculature, and skipped the Fighting pool, you've got a slightly funny definition of not building specifically for damage.
Also worth pointing out that, if we're discussing SS with double Rage as if it's the only set that matters, Brutes do NOT do more damage 100% of the time, something you've stated several times in this thread. In fact, they do more damage only about 83% of the time, because Tanks will do more damage during Rage crashes.
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His point is that they don't need that extra survivability, they already function as well as a tanker in 99% of content.| We have to ask this, because those options are not barred from you - you can always take them - but no Brute or Scrapper will suddenly get an extra 25% Base DEF, RES and HP to build off of.` |
Instead you should be asking how much of your scrapper/brute's damage you're willing to give up to gain tank-level survivability (which you hardly ever, if ever, need).
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I'd say I'd be willing to drop my damage scale from 1.125 to .8, and lose crits completely, when I want to play a character that has Tanker-level survivability.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Impact
Instead you should be asking how much of your scrapper/brute's damage you're willing to give up to gain tank-level survivability (which you hardly ever, if ever, need).
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Edit: Or on a brute, I'd be willing to give up Fury altogether.
The real question is, if someone doesn't agree that those trades are worthwhile, why ARE they playing a tank?
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Congratulations, you're our random giveaway winner! You already have that survivability, and we don't ask you to give away anything!|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
I'd say I'd be willing to drop my damage scale from 1.125 to .8, and lose crits completely, when I want to play a character that has Tanker-level survivability.
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Honestly, this is getting old. I'm very sporadic with my forum activity, but I've been around since release. This topic is as much about willfully ignoring the realities of gameplay mechanics and arguing with Johnny for the sake of it as anything else. Admittedly, he stacked the deck against him self in the early days by being much more confrontational and abrasive, but he seems much more reasoned and controlled these days (and I commend him for that).
All he's asking for is an identity for tanks in the end-game, because currently there is no need to play one other than "just cuz". Anybody that claims there isn't an imbalance at the end-game, is being willfully ignorant.
I used to roll tanks fairly often and one of my few 50s is a WP/SS tanker. Nowadays when I want to roll a melee type with high survivability, I just can't justify picking tanker over brute. My latest obsession is my SJ/EA brute, and he's already a monster for both damage and survivability at level 39. You know what I'd get if EA/SJ was possible? A lot less damage, a few more hp, and the ability to softcap easier without relying on specific set bonuses.
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Except that's an assumption, and not one I accept as true. In fact, given everything we've been told about the average player's performance, when blasters were revised, when the leveling curve was adjusted, and every other time difficulty was tinkered with, I would say there's overwhelming evidence that says that's not true: that tanker mitigation is not overkill in 99% of all standard content.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Impact
His point is that they don't need that extra survivability, they already function as well as a tanker in 99% of content.
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What I've seen over the years is the way statements like this get ultimately justified is to simply eliminate all other circumstances as irrelevant. In other words, any content that does require a tanker over a brute is broken, or too difficult, or content no one does. The only teams that need a tanker over a brute are bad teams. Eliminating all the teams that need a tanker, and eliminating all the content that needs a tanker, we're left with the "real" game that makes tankers redundant.
Seen it happen time and time again, talking about blaster melee, defender buffs, stamina - heck the great irony is that the *first* time I saw this line of thought that I can recall it was about Scrappers and how they were completely redundant on teams. It was the devs bending to this sort of line of thought - which I disagreed with throughout that time - that gave Scrappers a higher damage modifier and pervasive criticals.
I'm actually willing to mostly sit back and see if the current powers team buys it as the prior powers teams bought it in the past. Because if they do, it says a lot about whether I should use measured tactics to get other balance problems looked at, or if I should just make stuff up and see what sticks.
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If you're talking about the end game, the end game is actually more friendly to tankers than say scrappers. Its not like my damage edge - whatever that might be - is significant in the end game on a scrapper vs a tanker. But the trials actually created things for tankers to do: on Keyes, on Underground, and even to some extent on BAF. And on Lambda, for the most part its all about personal survivability in the collection phase and then a big dogpile at the end.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Impact
All he's asking for is an identity for tanks in the end-game, because currently there is no need to play one other than "just cuz". Anybody that claims there isn't an imbalance at the end-game, is being willfully ignorant.
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I'm far more concerned about masterminds on iTrials than Tankers. I'm far more concerned about stalkers on iTrials than Tankers. And unless you really know what you're doing, you're going to have far more problems on a blaster than a tanker on Lambda, and I'm saying that as someone whose main is a blaster, and thus takes blasters everywhere, constantly.
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Yep, that's actually pretty much the position I've held for most of this thread. But making Tankers even more like Brutes doesn't give them an identity. If anything, it eats into both their identity and the Brute identity. I'd much rather see them given something that makes them actually stand out, like stronger secondary effects, or the ability to absorb damage from teammates.
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Originally Posted by Dark_Impact
All he's asking for is an identity for tanks in the end-game, because currently there is no need to play one other than "just cuz". Anybody that claims there isn't an imbalance at the end-game, is being willfully ignorant.
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In all fairness, Arguing with Johnny has been the de facto Tanker forum mini game for almost five years now. I don't expect that to change.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Impact
This topic is as much about willfully ignoring the realities of gameplay mechanics and arguing with Johnny for the sake of it as anything else.
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So, Arcanaville, what you're saying is that Defenders should get Tankers armors and Blaster level damage, in addition to their current powers? Bold, but I like it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm actually willing to mostly sit back and see if the current powers team buys it as the prior powers teams bought it in the past. Because if they do, it says a lot about whether I should use measured tactics to get other balance problems looked at, or if I should just make stuff up and see what sticks. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Stop making it so easy for us to do, then. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
In all fairness, Arguing with Johnny has been the de facto Tanker forum mini game for almost five years now. I don't expect that to change.
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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You mean the glory of being a tauntbot on Keyes?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
But the trials actually created things for tankers to do: on Keyes, on Underground, and even to some extent on BAF. And on Lambda, for the most part its all about personal survivability in the collection phase and then a big dogpile at the end.
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Yeah, I feel like a real demigod superhero there. /sarcasm
When they send the Tanker to pull Nightstar (that is if a Brute doesn't just run in instead) somewhere Joe Esposito starts playing You're the Best, every time.
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That's a nice effort Aett, but if a real attempt was going to be made to get a dev to look at buff ideas a new thread should be started by someone non-controversial who can tack *reasonable* suggestions up to the original post, reediting it as new ideas are offered.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Okay, so to sum up what I've seen in this thread in terms of suggestions that we might actually want the Devs to explore, including some of Johnny's ideas, not all of which are bad (and including some he just brought up that he has raised before):
1) Raise the Tanker damage cap to +300% (a 100% increase) 2) Give Tankers more ways to increase damage potential in the Ancillary Pools 3) Raise the Tanker aggro cap to anywhere between 20 and 34 4) Give Tankers the ability to have higher Defense and Resistance caps (95% and 47.5%, respectively 5) Give Tankers a fury-like bar that reduces endurance cost and/or recharge time. 6) Give Tankers MOAR DAMAGE! 7) Give Tankers LESS DAMAGE! 8) Adjust Tanker secondaries to be more mitigation-heavy, instead of adding more damage 9) Give Tanker secondaries something to help offset the higher DPE ratios that Tankers face. Not all secondaries have been adjusted to reflect the fact that Tankers do less damage for the same amount of endurance. 10) Create more ways for Tankers to increase their damage potential. Brutes and Scrappers have many ways to increase their defenses, but Tankers have few options to increase their offense. 11) See below 12) Either increase Tanker AT threat mod, or increase Tanker gauntlet duration. Both of these will help a Tanker get and maintain aggro. Did I miss any? Also, I'd like to throw a #11 into the ring: When IOs first came out, Tankers who put procs in their attacks soon found out that the procs were hitting in an AoE off of single-target attacks. It was quickly discovered that Procs were firing based on who was hit by gauntlet, not just the target of the attack. As such, we know that effects can be transferred through gauntlet. Given the suggestions above saying that Tankers should have had attack sets that were more mitigation-heavy, and given that Tankers do less DPE than similar ATs with the same attacks, what if we do something like this: Allow Tanker secondary single-target attacks to have their debuff/mitigation effect spread through Gauntlet. Basically, for any Tanker single-target attack, allow the debuff to be applied through the AoE effect of Gauntlet, instead of just to the single target that you were attacking. Against hard, single targets, this won't do much. But against large spawns, the tanker could knockdown/stun/debuff/burn 5 enemies instead of 1. Since most of these attacks only have a chance to fire against every target (and some of the AoEs on Gauntlet are fairly small), this wouldn't be something you'd see constantly hitting 5 targets, but would give the Tanker a feel of more active mitigation. |
Castle among other devs love[d] that since they can pop to the 1st post and see what everyone is offering without sorting through 15 pages of morass.
I don't have the time to do something like that anymore, but another benefit to addressing suggestions that way is that once posters note that reasonable suggestions are being tacked on to the main post the tone in the thread tends to be more serious and respectful.
OP had good intentions but the thread has quickly turned into someone amusing themselves, and really offering any ideas in what's going to be 25+ pages of 'I want godmode' 'no tanks are only meatshields!' is inefficient.
I'd get Rangle, Aett or NuclearMedicine (someone with time to update it) to create a thread like "Feedback: Tanker Buff Suggestions" and I could get it stickied.
Long live Tanks.
JB, why do you play tankers and not brutes?
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I just have to mention, I think I'm the only one who actually answered the questions the OP posed, in a succinct manner free of cruft too.|
Originally Posted by Acemace
That's a nice effort Aett, but if a real attempt was going to be made to get a dev to look at buff ideas a new thread should be started by someone non-controversial who can tack *reasonable* suggestions up to the original post, reediting it as new ideas are offered.
Castle among other devs love[d] that since they can pop to the 1st post and see what everyone is offering without sorting through 15 pages of morass. I don't have the time to do something like that anymore, but another benefit to addressing suggestions that way is that once posters note that reasonable suggestions are being tacked on to the main post the tone in the thread tends to be more serious and respectful. OP had good intentions but the thread has quickly turned into someone amusing themselves, and really offering any ideas in what's going to be 25+ pages of 'I want godmode' 'no tanks are only meatshields!' is inefficient. I'd get Rangle, Aett or NuclearMedicine (someone with time to update it) to create a thread like "Feedback: Tanker Buff Suggestions" and I could get it stickied. Long live Tanks. |
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As long as I can respec my blaster into a defender, why not?
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
So, Arcanaville, what you're saying is that Defenders should get Tankers armors and Blaster level damage, in addition to their current powers? Bold, but I like it.
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As opposed to what? What is my blaster doing on Keyes? Waiting for the tauntbot. Epically waiting, while flaunting my extra damage strength cap.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You mean the glory of being a tauntbot on Keyes?
Yeah, I feel like a real demigod superhero there. /sarcasm When they send the Tanker to pull Nightstar (that is if a Brute doesn't just run in instead) somewhere Joe Esposito starts playing You're the Best, every time. . |
You don't like being a tauntbot. You don't like really being in charge of aggro at all. You say that's because its not needed, but when it is needed you denigrate it. You only want to draw aggro if it means the critters all run up to you and then you vaporize them. You still have this vision of the tanker as being just plain the most powerful thing on the board. The devs aren't going to give it to you, and no matter what they do to tankers they will eventually do something similar to everything else, putting you in the same position again.
Although, its difficult to say these days if your position is to get tankers to be something that would be stupidly broken, or if your position is just to complain about the fact the devs haven't gotten around to making them stupidly broken.
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Sorry, but I have to agree with Deus Otiosus.
Kill the enemy. Take their souls. Drink their blood.
Johnny, what sets are these three Tankers of yours using that are routinely at the damage cap?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus