So any Kheldian's who made it to the Pummit?

Sounds like a plan to me.

Before ANY of the panels even started, I "cornered" Arbiter Hawk and laid the concerns of the Peacebringer Community concerning KnockBACK in Melee Powers and PBAoE Powers in front of him the way a kitten does with a birdie. I wanted to engage him and find out *exactly* where he was coming "from" in his (and presumably, the Powers Team's) notion that keeping ALL of the KnockBACK on Peacebringers the way it's been since Issue 3 was "a good idea" or somehow "best for the Archetype" so as to get a better handle on his (and their) perspectives. Trotted out the KnockBACK vs KnockDOWN vs KnockUP options and opinions that have been expressed here and in the Beta Forums (which Arbiter Hawk seemed to not be *fully* up to date on, which is no ding on him, since that would require a LOT of reading!), along with an appeal to make even some relatively minor modifications to the KnockABOUT coding to make it somewhat more reliable/dependable/predictable so that you're not quite *as* at mercy of the Random Number Generator.

Then I got into it with him on how the most recent round of changes have "devalued" the Peacebringer's Nova and Dwarf forms, relative to the Human Only option(s) we now have. Brought him up to speed on the notion of dumping the Nova's +45% Damage Buff in favor of baking that into the raw damage of the Nova Powers directly, and how that would (in effect) raise the damage cap for Nova Powers. Arbiter Hawk seemed to be peripherally aware of the implications, once explained, but apparently hadn't been thinking along those lines previously. Pointed out the ... deficiencies ... of Peacebringer Dwarf relative to Warshade Dwarf in terms of being able to run an attack chain with only 2 single target attacks, instead of 3, and how that "hurts" Peacebringers in comparison (never mind Mire!).

I trotted out my old idea of re-jiggering Photon Seekers into being something akin to a Mobile Trip Mine (see Devices or Traps powersets) that you can just crank out and which follow you around. The idea being that you can just cast and cast and cast, but they've only got a 60 second lifespan, so there's a limit to how many Photon "Mines" (and I'm only using this term here for clarity of attribution to avoid confusion) you can have out simultaneously. If you want a Big Nuke out of them, then you need to "pause" your game (for about a minute) and prep for a Big Hit with lots of them as an alpha strike. If you're steamrolling, you can just dump them out (one at a time) as part of an attack chain and they'll just go find something to blow up on.

I also got into it with Arbiter Hawk how Pulsar is both "too weak" and doesn't have anything else to stack/synergize with ... unlike Warshades with their multitude (by comparison) of Stun Powers. I think I managed to "talk him around" to the notion that Pulsar needs to be Mag 3 with a chance to proc +1 Mag ... rather than Mag 2 with a chance to proc +1 Mag. This then led to discussions about how for a Warshade, there are some pretty legitimate reasons to go Tri-form, simply because the different forms each give access to powers and functionalities that aren't present in the other forms ... and how this sort of mutually reinforcing synergies condition is NOT (as) true for Peacebringers. Stacking Stuns was merely one example of that. Warshades "need" Nova Form if they want to Fly ... while Peacebringers "don't" because they can Fly just fine in Human form. Also mentioned how the Flight and Teleport Pools are Locked Out for Kheldians, meaning no access to Air Superiority (which would be AWESOME for Peacebringers!).

And as advertised ... YES ... I did invite Arbiter Hawk to come to the Kheldian Forum and start a dialogue with us on Kheldian Issues (with a definite skew towards Peacebringer Issues, since Warshades are MFing Fine). Arbiter Hawk *did* say he was an avid Lurker of the forums, and so often wanted to post in threads where people have said "I'll bet the Devs never read this!" just to prove them wrong. However, as Zwillinger pointed out (later, in a different context), time the Devs spend reading (and posting) on the Forums is time they're NOT spending on MAKING COOL STUFF™ that we all want to play with.

But yes ... I personally invited Arbiter Hawk to come over here and engage in a conversation with Us (the Kheldian Community), since I alone can't adequately represent EVERYONE'S opinions, thoughts, ideas and concerns (or at least, can't without being biased to favor my own). I think it would be WONDERFUL if we could all have a constructive discussion on Where To Go From Here with Peacebringers that Arbiter Hawk could participate in, and share his views and the concerns of the Powers Team.



Anyone else like that idea?

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

=)

This is the only thing I take issue with. Along with the form shift animations, the biggest issue (and it's a big one) that Warshades have is (lack of) TOGGLE SUPPRESSION. You can find more broad info on the issue in an earlier thread that I started (lurk away ) but in a nutshell, Nova AOE's are only slightly better than the AOE provided by Orbiting Death/Unchain Essence/Judgement at the high end (purple procs, FOTG -res) and Dwarf form is only good for the extra Mire (softcapped human form is much more survivable.)

If however, toggles all suppressed in Nova form and did not need to be reactivated after switching to human (on top of drastically shortened animations) using Nova form would be a No-Brainer. If Dwarf could run Defensive toggles (Shadow Cloak, pool toggles) it would have effective tanking abilities (as of now, human form is better at that- Dwarf once again is only good for the extra Mire.) A taunt aura would be nice, too.

So he didn't have anything to actually SAY about kheldians?

Nothing concrete?

Nothing in the pipeline?

You just rehashed (Again) all our vast and varied discussions on the forums to get him "up to speed"?

I think that asking him to come and speak with us directly was the best thing Redlynne could have done. Grilling the guy in real life wouldn't have helped at all.

I never said there had to be grilling involved. Either he has something to say about us or he doesn't...and from Redlynne's post he didn't. They had to tell him about stuff from the knockup/knockback arguments we've been having for YEARS. Not "Since last issue", no, we've been going back and forth over knockback/knockup for YEARS.

If he lurks so much, and they are honestly and truly wanting to put in the effort this archetype DESERVES, then they should have SOMETHING to say by now. The fact that they don't has always been disconcerting. Ive said it over and over and over, they have to talk to us. They haven't so far, and that's all I have to judge by.

He didn't want to make any more changes last issue because he wanted to see how the changes he had made played out. Did he just have nothing to say about that? Its been a couple months, is there nothing to say about his thoughts on that? Redlynne went over the same talking points that we've been going over for ages, and there was nothing worth noting said about any of that? Heck, HE didn't even tell us he wanted to see how things played out, we had to get that secondhand too!

That's my problem here. They keep saying they want to put in actual effort, they want to do right by us, and then we get this. We get this over and over, and over again but never more than an occasional bone thrown our way. There was all the talk about getting the animation and activation times of forms reduced. What happened to that? The Pummit would have been an EXCELLENT place to spill some beans for crying out loud, especially to the person who actively sought the dev out to talk specifically about some of these things. Why wasn't it? They can talk about their new shinies from sun up to sun down, but they cant even give someone an update on how things stand with Khelds?

Actually, he DID have things to say ... but I don't want to put words into Arbiter Hawk's mouth (or keyboard, as the case may be) as to what he himself said to me over 48 hours ago (and it's more like 60 hours ago now, by the time I post this). I'm not censoring Arbiter Hawk here, although it may seem like it to anyone who wasn't party to our conversation ... instead I'm trying to leave him the maximum room to "maneuver" should he decide to start up a conversation with us here in the Kheldian Forum. I feel like he would be much more articulate ... and better understood ... if he could present his side of the conversation we were having about Peacebringers himself, rather than filtering things through my biases and impressions (which are already fading in my memory with the passage of time).

To me, at the time, it felt like I was bringing him up to speed on a lot of the things the Kheldian Community has been talking about (of late) ... while at the same time, it also felt like he could only but say "so much" without risking giving away something he shouldn't (ie. future developments which aren't finalized yet), or because he had to keep track of "multiple moving parts" where making modifications weren't quite as Cut And Dried Simple as I was making them out to be, due to internal concerns the Powers Team had which I wasn't privy to (nor should I be, necessarily).

That's why I'm relaying my *impressions* of MY side of the conversation, without getting into exhaustive detail of what Arbiter Hawk actually had to say (or what he agreed with me on). I'd prefer to give him the opportunity to do that himself ... if he wants to ... without me pre-empting what he might have (or want) to say by editorializing it with my personal take/spin.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Zenyth ... CALM DOWN. You are already mischaracterizing the interaction I had with Arbiter Hawk by blowing things out of proportion with your own personal take and spin on events that you're hearing about second hand two and a half days after they happened! You're overreacting (badly) here, and I know you're better than ... this.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

Ive been waiting patiently for several years. Im entitled to a little overreaction...especially when it just seems like the endless wait is going to be even more endless than it already is.

All I have to go on in regards to Kheldians is what other people post. All my information is second hand. Im too grumpy and antisocial to have Hawke or any dev on forum speed dial. I cant get out to these events, and I dont live anywhere in any semblance of the vicinity of a major or minor con or event that NCsoft and Paragon would show up to. So I have to filter my already filtered information. If Hawke wants to pop in and talk to us that'd be absolutely wonderful. The track record in general doesn't inspire me to hold my breath however.

It irritates me.

It irritates me because we've talked all our issues to death. We've summed up our thoughts repeatedly in attempts to make it easy for them. Why do we keep having to do this? Why do we keep HAPPILY doing this?

Insanity is endlessly repeating the same process and hoping for a different result.

Ive been at this since before ED. Before CoV. Before Inventions, Ouroboros, and Going Rogue. I've been around and playing my kheld THAT long. So have alot of others. Its frustrating, and I've just reached my limit. I was hoping for SOMETHING out of the Pummit, we DID get changes last issue, and while they've mostly invalidated our forms it was SOMETHING at least. Its very much a momentum thing though, and the longer this is drawn out the worse it feels like we built up just enough steam to ram right back into the wall.

Are you saying that Peacebringers still need major help? Because while I personally might not find the changes all that suitable for me, I don't really agree with that assessment.

To what Arcanaville post are you referring?

This one perhaps ...?

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

The way I read it, I was wondering what was in any way revelatory to what Redlynne said, compared to what I PM'd Arbiter Hawk this summer and we posted in the beta thread. But you do want to be careful of misinterpreting too much, and it does sound like that potential reading is a bit too far for what happened.

Also, it's good to remember that things are long term in a development cycle, and we players only hear about them right before they're going to happen. We at least have evidence that the devs are listening and doing more than recently.

Oh, certainly. Hostility is a bad way to get anything accomplished. And I like Arbiter Hawk. He is willing to listen, though I do wish he would be more willing to communicate on some things.

However, I'm not going to stop noting that more needs to be done, and that the devs shouldn't put Kheldians on the backburner again. Kheldian players have more than enough evidence to point to that this is a danger. The changes in I11 were nice, but not enough... and it was a long stretch before anything else happened.

I'm hoping that the silence means something else is in the works, especially given some other hints we received over the summer. The longer range changes often get a "we'd like to." But I don't want to over-read that.

I'm not sure if what they need is construed as major help. It's fairly extensive, though... we have Pulsar and Solar Flare at the least, if not more KB issues. Then we have issues with the forms not being as good as human, or at least as viable. And there's the whole form shift animation and Light Form animation.

That's a fair amount of stuff that I would say is easy to argue as needed, at least to get them where they need to be. Quantitatively, they're much closer to where they need to be after the changes. Qualitatively, there's a fair distance to go.

I did chat to Arcana briefly this summer in a PM, and she did say she might try to get around to playing with the Peacebringer changes and see what more is needed. Not sure if that ever happened, but it's nice to see that other post that says more is needed. I know she's not a dev, but it doesn't hurt to have her looking at things.

Those problems are common to both Kheldian ATs, meaning that PBs suffer them too. Noting that Nova AOE seems lackluster in comparison to WS humanform AOE just reinforces that there is still a significant gap between the two.

If discussions of Kheldian AT concerns tend to disproportionately focus on PB stuff, it's only because they are still far more in need of work than their shadowy cousins.

Well suppression isn't important for Peacebringers as they stand now because there's no point in even having forms at level 50. Warshades however are missing out by not being able to use them due to the issue of toggles dropping and long animations. (edit: To be clear, by "have," I meant "use.")

Dude...

If anyone sees Arbiter Hawke on the street, shake his hand for me for daring to look into Kheldians. And tell him to buff the forms, please

Ummm, what exactly are you reading or thinking that people are saying "Peacebringers need to be just like Warshades?" Peacebringers have easily demonstrable powers that need help/fixing (and certainly not because they need to be like Warshades. Just because powers like Pulsar and Solar Flare are not working well), and there are still issues to formshifting for Kheldians as a whole that needs work.

Are Peacebringers doing better? Sure. Are they and even Kheldians as solid as they should be? No. Sure, the devs could be sitting on the things they need tweaked, like Stalkers, but the better development philosophy would be to get things just right. I'd really rather they got things right without such huge gaps. Castle adjusted Fiery Aura a bit in I11, even though the further changes he made many issues later were still there after the I11 fix. Kheldians still have issues after their I11 and I21 fixes, and I'd rather not wait until I31 for them to finally get fixed, like Fiery Aura is.

That... would be a reason why Peacebringers still need work. There should be equally valid reasons to want to run in any of the forms, and the forms should be switched to easily. The forms can be balanced around such a concept and not be overpowered.

The forms still have an invaluable purpose on the 1-50 level up journey. Many power sets abandon powers as they level up higher and invest more into their builds- Peacebringer forms are just an example of that.

I might be taking this out of context, but as far as I have read on the boards and experienced personally, Fiery Aura is an extremely powerful set. As a point of reference, there is an SS/Fire brute on the board who duoed the Lambda Sector trial with an Ill/Cold Controller, Soloed a Master of ITF, and can even solo Giant Monsters without Lore Pets.

It's definitely an offensive set- I'd hardly put it in the "needs improvement" pile, whereas Kheldians frankly belong there, at least to some extent.

I use the term/expression, "Turning peacebringers into warshades." because I've seen people who own different types of tankers who promptly make them all feel like eachother when playing leaving me to wonder why have the different types of tanker? It's just an extreme way of putting things.

You say PBs have easily demonstrable powers that need fixing and state pulsar and solar flare as those powers but I haven't noticed anything. Maybe I should get on my PB more.

The issues with Form shifting are?

Kheldians like anything can be improved, but there is only so much improvement before they start doing everything for the whole team, better than the rest of the team. So how much improvement and why is it a necessity? They've always been a swiss army knife, jack of all trade, take over for an AT when needed type of AT to me.

As stated before, by the poster above me, Firetanks can be quite solid. If I was to give an opinion, then at the time when Firetanks were buffed, if Dark tanks were about, then they would of/could of had a buff (although I can imagine it might of been refused) to their weakness which for me, is much the same as Warshades, where an above normal amount of powers relies on tohit, they could do with tohit debuff resistance. Something I realize as a PB is that, I am not relying on having to hit targets as much to survive.

I actually did have Kheldians on excel in 2007. I wish I still had but it wont take long as there is only 4 powersets. I will look at everything over this weekend to compare. I did realize that my PB had not so much of an X factor to it, always thought so but the changes do bring it someway.

If you was on Union where my PB is I would guarantee that I can show the most valid of valid reasons for Nova, even at 50. Then with Dwarf which is so much more useful for keeping people alive when necessary than glowing touch. I could show you just how certain haven't been dones can be done. Some considered "nonsense" powers come to use in all kheld teams when you don't have a tanker, defender etc. They're there on offer to provide flexibility and to argue balance as an AT through being able to achieve the things anyother 1 AT team can. It's a well built AT, the improvements expanded on what the AT is about rather than taken away. I am not saying there couldnt or wouldnt be some slight buff somewhere but, eventually if you keep buffing something you create more work from other things being comparatively weaker. I'd much rather the Devs work on cool new stuff. Their philosophy is why I still play this game.