So any Kheldian's who made it to the Pummit?
The problem with Pulsar is that it's a low Mag, unreliable control power that Peacebringers have no means of stacking to make it useful, whereas Warshades are able to stack enough stuns to permanently lock down even level spawns. Pulsar is just a useless and unreliable power that has no real synergies with anything else available to them.
Solar Flare has massive Knockback, which negates a good amount of a Peacebringers' functionality: It is a melee power that knocks things out of melee range (as opposed to knocking them down like Foot Stomp) which does not mesh well with the arguably crucial melee attacks in the Peacebringer's same primary. |
First use of Pulsar, I thought "hey this isn't that good" then after multiple uses over and over I thought "nothing seems desperately wrong with this".
But it is well slotted. Not the one slot love that maybe with some people.
Then I compared the disorientating with a Warshade just to be sure and thought my PB is not jealous.
The Solar Flare however, if Handclap in Superstrength did the damage and footstomp just did the knock up then Superstrength would be the powerset ya wouldn't want to team with. Spread mobs, free of debuffs, spread mobs, outside of cone range, spread mobs free of aggro control. For a power people might have up every 5-8s it can definitely bring dismay. PBs are part and parcel of why -KB in AoE immobs can be good. Not every team should have a controller. Potentially one of the reasons for PBs + Speed team = Lol
Just to add has anyone suggested for Solar Flare to do a mag 2 disorient instead? Give it a new name like Solar Blind.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I did some field testing:
Then I compared the disorientating with a Warshade just to be sure and thought my PB is not jealous. |
![Cool](images/smilies/cool.gif)
You obviously haven't played or witnessed the playing of a Human Form Warshade of Doom.
![]() |
Pulsar is a 20ft radius pbaoe, its pretty nice. It's the first thing I use after inner light. Inner lights perma, Pulsar is perma, it does.
If you have a mission on AE that you regularly do with your WS I would be up for giving it a go with both my Khelds, however there are no purples. I'd like to see how you do it and then it maybe I'll have to learn to do it. Am not shy.
I would like to see the Flare changed.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I did 54s with my PB, mag 2 still worked on the minions. I just expect it to work on the minions. Its not about choosing the right mobs and getting everything stunned, Incandescent is a Mag 3 Hold. I wouldn't want both PBs and WSs to be all about stunning mobs so they can wonder around and be spread (around the radius my Solar Flare would of currently knocked them). They'll be more or less the same then.
Pulsar is a 20ft radius pbaoe, its pretty nice. It's the first thing I use after inner light. Inner lights perma, Pulsar is perma, it does. If you have a mission on AE that you regularly do with your WS I would be up for giving it a go with both my Khelds, however there are no purples. I'd like to see how you do it and then it maybe I'll have to learn to do it. Am not shy. I would like to see the Flare changed. |
The forms still have an invaluable purpose on the 1-50 level up journey. Many power sets abandon powers as they level up higher and invest more into their builds- Peacebringer forms are just an example of that.
|
The Peacebringer forms should have good reason to be chosen from 1-50 and above. The numbers don't seem to bear that out being the case anymore, which isn't a good thing. And really, all our suggestions for making forms be balanced aren't anything different than have been suggested for a long time.
I might be taking this out of context, but as far as I have read on the boards and experienced personally, Fiery Aura is an extremely powerful set. As a point of reference, there is an SS/Fire brute on the board who duoed the Lambda Sector trial with an Ill/Cold Controller, Soloed a Master of ITF, and can even solo Giant Monsters without Lore Pets.
It's definitely an offensive set- I'd hardly put it in the "needs improvement" pile, whereas Kheldians frankly belong there, at least to some extent. |
And... I have a guide to Fiery Aura and Fiery Melee in my sig. I clearly like the set a bit.
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
New Dawn... I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to defend Pulsar before. I tried to argue for it before, but that was before I looked at any other mez powers in the game. There are very few Mag 2 mez powers anymore, and they are all rightly derided.
Pulsar is supposed to be a Peacebringer mez power, and it is far weaker than equivalent PbOE mezzes in other control sets, and moreover, their Warshade cousins. Even if Pulsar gets to be a guaranteed Mag 3, Peacebringers are still not going to be able to control as much as Warshades. They're just going to have a decent control power, like they should. It's just flat out not worth using.
Solar Flare, forget about it. You can do some damage with it and I use it, but it's still far weaker than it should be. It's been compared to death already.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Ummm, if any developer said that it was okay for a power to go by the wayside, I'd say that's a bad approach to developing. Yes, not every power needs to be completely equal, but there should be compelling reasons to take any power. A lot of people advocate dropping Initial Strike from Street Justice if you have the recharge, etc., but there's plenty good reason for many people to have it. It's not out of whack with other tier 1 attacks.
|
Look at that quote again. I admittedly did not say it as well as I should, since I wrote it in a rush, but my point was that Fiery Aura is now fixed and where it should be. Before the Fiery Embrace and Burn changes, it wasn't, however. And it received minor changes in I11, just like Kheldians did: changes which did not get the set to where it needs to be. The "I31" statement is a reference to how long between fixes it's been for Kheldians. |
And... I have a guide to Fiery Aura and Fiery Melee in my sig. I clearly like the set a bit. ![]() |
New Dawn... I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to defend Pulsar before. I tried to argue for it before, but that was before I looked at any other mez powers in the game. There are very few Mag 2 mez powers anymore, and they are all rightly derided.
Pulsar is supposed to be a Peacebringer mez power, and it is far weaker than equivalent PbOE mezzes in other control sets, and moreover, their Warshade cousins. Even if Pulsar gets to be a guaranteed Mag 3, Peacebringers are still not going to be able to control as much as Warshades. They're just going to have a decent control power, like they should. It's just flat out not worth using. Solar Flare, forget about it. You can do some damage with it and I use it, but it's still far weaker than it should be. It's been compared to death already. |
Trick Archers pretty much never were, yet that's been buffed a few times. People had said about what can't be done yet I was quite happy doing things, but we have to allow eachother to "see" a set and whether or not we can "all" be happy with it is another thing. But yes Pulsar looks good to me.
I am not shy ingame, if anyone wants to meet ingame then sure!
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Dont ya find Dark Detonation a bit more instant than Orbiting Death? I'd have to respec OD in to do it.
|
![](http://boards.cityofheroes.com/images/icons/icon12.gif)
I personally find Orbiting Death to be one of the essential, if not signature powers, of a Warshade while in human form. Its value increases tremendously if you've got an aggro magnet on your team who can herd things together to maximize AoE (or in this case, PBAoE) efficiencies. Get a tanker herding things onto them, stick right beside them so as to best overlap your respective auras, and it's totally Eclipse/Mire/Inky Aspect/Orbiting Death/Stygian Circle time on just about every single spawn group you encounter. Orbiting Death also performs beautifully as a "finisher" of mobs that have slivers of HP left.
![](http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/7840/groove1.gif)
Oh I remember now Red, I had some negative views on OD years ago ya talked me out of, I just never spend that much time in human form I guess to go for it.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
i want the Knockback removed from Solar Flare.. It is one of the only Melee PbAoE in the whole game that does knockback (the other one being Thunderstrike if I remember correctly) . It should be removed PERIOD.. It is simply penalizing PB's now. Teams in general have an issue with PB because of the Cysts and because of knockback which is understandable. Unlike other knockback which often can be controlled with intelligent play and position PbAoE knockack is not so easy to manage. Then consider all the other things in the PB set that have knockback and it becomes one of the most annoying things to team with.
Also the excuse that removing the KB or turning it into KD would make it overpowered is sheer stupidity.
Lets look at that theory...
The SS/Fire brute has fury giving them a consistent damage boost, plus a massive damage boost from Rage which can be EASILY perma'd, ANOTHER damage boost in Fiery Embrace, a KNOCKDOWN PbAoE in Footstomp, Another PbAoE in Blazing Aura, and then finally an Easily Perma'd PbAoE in Burn...
And this ignores the fact that you could also easly take Fireball for yet ANOTHER attack while ranged can be easily used as ANOTHER PbAoE...
Not to mention a higher damage cap and a very huge heal in Healing Flames and if I am correct a higher HP cap as well.
So the Brute can spam Footstomp, buff themselves greatly, and Burn the crap out of everything in a small area ????!!!!!!
and the PEACEBRINGER would be overpowered by turning knockback into knockdown ????!!!!!
Are you SERIOUS???!!!!!!
THATS what pisses me off.. the disparity in what is seen as overpowered...
breathing... calming down.... rage subsiding.....
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
I personally find Orbiting Death to be one of the essential, if not signature powers, of a Warshade while in human form. Its value increases tremendously if you've got an aggro magnet on your team who can herd things together to maximize AoE (or in this case, PBAoE) efficiencies. Get a tanker herding things onto them, stick right beside them so as to best overlap your respective auras, and it's totally Eclipse/Mire/Inky Aspect/Orbiting Death/Stygian Circle time on just about every single spawn group you encounter. Orbiting Death also performs beautifully as a "finisher" of mobs that have slivers of HP left.
|
Or grav emanation everything into a nice little group, and proceed to beat the hell out of them by yourself.
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
THATS what pisses me off.. the disparity in what is seen as overpowered...
|
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Pulsar - Mag 2 changed to Mag 3
Solar Flare - Knockback changed to Knockdown
Incandescent Strike - Hold changed to Stun
White Dwarf - Add another Single Target attack, form-shifting cast time reduced to 1 sec
Bright Nova - Add another Aoe attack, form-shifting cast time reduced to 1 sec
Shields - Toggles changed to passives
Cosmic Balance - Also gives Mag 4 mez protection when soloing, loses 1 mag for each player in the team
- Peacebringer problems solved.
Eh, my blaster has a single target immobilize that isn't even in his tray- I think it might be used for a set mule. I probably used it and got use out of it leveling up, and I think the forms are the same kind of thing. Same thing with a lot of level one ST attacks, you take 'em while you need 'em, and spec out once you can build for a better attack chain without 'em. That doesn't mean they don't have a purpose, it just means that the purpose gets outgrown in some cases.
|
I'm perfectly fine with it to be viable to human form only, but I want there to be reason to run in any of the forms. Anything less is bad design and fails of the potential that the original design has.
No one really sees it as overpowered, but for a dev it's much quicker to simply tweet an inflamatory excuse than to actually rewrite the code of a power ingame
![]() Pulsar - Mag 2 changed to Mag 3 Solar Flare - Knockback changed to Knockdown Incandescent Strike - Hold changed to Stun White Dwarf - Add another Single Target attack, form-shifting cast time reduced to 1 sec Bright Nova - Add another Single Target attack, form-shifting cast time reduced to 1 sec Shields - Toggles changed to passives Cosmic Balance - Also gives Mag 4 mez protection when soloing, loses 1 mag for each player in the team - Peacebringer problems solved. |
Form-shifting is waiting on animation team time... hopefully that will happen with I22. If not... there will be an irate thread from me on the subject. That's something that needs to happen.
I like the idea of the Cosmic Balance change, and it's been suggested before. Makes both Kheldians more viable while solo, but still dependent on teammates more when teaming for the mez free aspect. I would like to see more of a benefit from Controllers and Doms on the team, though. Mag 2 for each would be more helpful, since everyone has Mag 1 protection to start.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Not sure if Nova needs another ST attack as much as it needs more damage given to its ST attacks. I can use the two STs and the Cone for a good ST chain that doesn't drain my end and is pretty much continuous, and I don't really have tons of global recharge (maybe... 40%, and not always up Hasten). I could see it helping Dwarf more, though.
|
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I don't think I've seen your build, but you must be well aware of your dps and in how procs work. I wonder if you could create a PB on Mids that could attempt to do what it is your Warshade does and be able to tell me where the shortfall is?
|
My Warshade (once mastered, granted) plays like butter, it just feels good and there are no hassles. I just need to hit a full Eclipse and Mire and the rest takes care of itself. My Warshade also has the benefit of being able to permanently stun entire x8 mobs without batting an eyelash, and go to work on them with ease if needed.
Ultimately though, it just comes down to preference. I may be biased because I am a Villain at heart and my Warshade is evil, but he is hands-down my favorite character and my Peacebringer is second. I just enjoy the way my Warshade plays more, but that's not a slight at the effectiveness of my Peacebringer.
I wouldn't put it on "the same level" either, because the Peacebringer forms are much more useful than the immobilize powers even at an early level. Seems the only thing you are saying is that Peacebringers have the benefit of getting even more out of the level up journey from their low tier powers than most other AT's do, and I'd call that a bargain.
|
Shapeshifting is what makes Kheldians unique, a fundamental, Archetype defining ability, just like Assassin Strike for stalkers. Moreso, Kheldians pay a high price for access to those forms. "No mez protection because you have Dwarf" argument, for starters. Therefore, it shouldn't surprise you that every reasonable player would want the forms to remain useful from level 1-50 - and right now, by your own admission, they aren't useful at all. That is a serious AT design problem that should have been corrected a long time ago, since this problem dates back several years already.
Either buff the forms or scrap every drawback in human form that arose from their existence. It can obviously wait, but dragging this Seinfeldian status-quo till issue 32 is only going to make more people angry.
Low level? White Dwarf is a lvl 20 power. Are you trying to win an argument or something?
|
I was referring to Nova mostly with the "low level" sentiment as I still take Dwarf as a set mule at level 20 (Not to be confused with taking Boxing or slotting up Brawl around that time for a Kinetic Combat mule- Far from unheard of, except that White Dwarf provides 2 of them for one power choice.)
Shapeshifting is what makes Kheldians unique, a fundamental, Archetype defining ability, just like Assassin Strike for stalkers. |
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
Moreso, Kheldians pay a high price for access to those forms. "No mez protection because you have Dwarf" argument, for starters. |
Therefore, it shouldn't surprise you that every reasonable player would want the forms to remain useful from level 1-50 - and right now, by your own admission, they aren't useful at all. That is a serious AT design problem that should have been corrected a long time ago, since this problem dates back several years already. |
I just think that I have invested enough into my Peacebringer now that the forms have run their course- My Human Form softcaps S/L defense and has comparable HP to Dwarf form. My Human Form also does more AoE than Nova is capable of, while retaining Dwarf survivability at my investment threshold.
Here's the thing though: not everyone has a build like mine! Most people still either use SO's or low end IO builds, and cannot afford or choose not to invest in these luxaries. for those people forms still have a purpose at level 50.
Nope, not intending to argue- I think Pilgrim knows I totally respect his opinions, just wanted to express mine.
|
Which is negated once you Perma Light Form, which provides status protection, and have a high defense human form build after that. |
Again, Peacebringers (and warshades) lack mez protection from lvl 10 onwards, unlike the VEATs, because they have access to White (and black) Dwarf. The least they could do is make sure White Dwarf is worth the sacrifice.
Once again: Forms are extremely useful, and should never be removed, in my opinion- They are vital for the level up process. |
Two Headed Boy emailed me two builds;
1: Very well spec'd Warshade, very expensive, clearly something that works. The WS is very destructive, softcapped to S/L and does a lot of disorientating but lacks in mezz protection.
2: Peacebringer also well done, very expensive and by Two Headed Boy doing it, a conversion in a way of his WS as near as dammit, so what is I hope a full on AV defeating human warshade players idea of a Peacebringer what can meet his expectations. The Peacebringer, has Lightform which can resist mezzes, doesn't rely on hitting targets for as much of its survivability but gets to S/L softcap with combat flight. Also despite the talk of Pulsar not being good enough, this build was established without it.
So I felt that there was some balancing to left to do:
What I did was get that PB build to S/L Softcap "without needing Combat Flight on, because thats slow", and what I also did was give the PB a very well slotted Pulsar because its being discussed for change.
*Already there is something of a trade off in that Warshades don't have as much human form mezz protection and so are better able to actively control to avoid being controlled.*
Anyway getting that PB to softcap S/L without combat flight and adding pulsar mean't all the -Res procs came out, and proton scatter was dropped at risk, of perhaps that the maximum potential amount of damage of a PB would be less than a Warshades. But then would it? A FotG -Res Proc did get added to the PB in flare so now the WS and PB are roughly the same, twins from another mother.
I threw the builds into excel. I say threw because it's a basic "small confined look at damage potential" of these two well IO setted builds as I am worried about the loss of Proton Scatter from THBs PB build. Also especially as I took the -res out of the PB to slot Pulsar.
In excel, AoEs that hit 10 had their DPA multiplied by 10, the best DPA attacks were repeated as often as possible and from good to worse DPA the attacks were repeated less, but ingame you can't achieve that, some attacks get in the way of using another or the attack chain is way complicated people won't use them. So I had to simplify these attack chains slightly for realism, add up the maximum amount of potential damage of combined aoe and st attacks.
Then the total amount of damage done between two sunless mires or two inner lights was converted into an average dps. Sunless mires maximizing on 10 targets, Innerlight given an average damage buff because of how it works and what transpired on my excel was although not wholly correct from not being completely broken down, but certainly ballpark, the result was something to make me feel that the Peacebringer was even without Proton Scatter, no lightweight. Close in the way I felt a nerf to PBs *could* happen but like I say I had been looking at a "confined look" at the builds.
So there are other factors to look at next, to be less confined, obviously warshades need more preferential conditions. A Pb doesnt care if there is one in melee or 10, it doesn't rely on tohit as much neither. Having decided that there is a good chance the PB is comparatively fine if not better gorrammit, the warshade must have something going for it.
So what could that be?
Stygian Circle.
With Two Headed Boys permission I would post the builds he sent me. I will also then be able to post the PB build I changed to best match the Warshade (twin from another mother). Two Headed Boy said his PB doesn't flow as well as a Warshade, has too many clickies for his liking, compared to a WS this is certainly true.
Anyone can break things down on excel and see what opinion they might get once I post these builds and point flaws in what I have concluded, but for me the warshade sure was lucking out until you take in the potential of stygian circle. It would take a lot of breaking down to get all nick picky, but I am otherwise walking away from this thread thinking that my initial subjective view just happens to matches my objective but because of having looked at a confined area of twin builds that doesn't mean that things might not happen. They might for reasons such as what people typically have for a build.
Solar Flare. I don't always see the Knockback to care but yep it's not always the welcome thing in teams let alone solo. Should that happen however I would like to see a buff to Warshades .
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
You say PBs have easily demonstrable powers that need fixing and state pulsar and solar flare as those powers but I haven't noticed anything. Maybe I should get on my PB more.
Solar Flair has massive Knockback, which negates a good amount of a Peacebringers functionality: It is a melee power that knocks things out of melee range (as opposed to knocking them down like Foot Stomp) which does not mesh well with the arguably crucial melee attacks in the Peacebringer's same primary.