City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Tier-1 secondary mandatory - why?

Aggelakis

By Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2011-11-16 22:36 in Player Questions

 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
It's arguably STILL overpowered regardless of the level it comes at, because you can still give your pets commands while in your bubble.
PFF causes "Only Affecting Self", and you can't command pets when you're under that status.

 

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They also don't get the Supremacy buffs while you're in your PFF.

 

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Originally Posted by Lazarillo View Post
PFF causes "Only Affecting Self", and you can't command pets when you're under that status.
Didn't know that.

You can still set them to Aggressive before turning PFF on though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Didn't know that.

You can still set them to Aggressive before turning PFF on though.
Which has the disadvantage that you cannot direct them still. And part of the strength of a mastermind is being able to focus fire.

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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa View Post
Which has the disadvantage that you cannot direct them still. And part of the strength of a mastermind is being able to focus fire.
True, but what other AT can be at all combat effective while in PFF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Originally Posted by GPBunny View Post
Choice is always good.
Well, that's not strictly true. In games, choice within a structured environment is good. Let's take a game vastly more successful than COH: Chess. You can choose to move any of your 8 pawns on the first move, or you can jump out one of your knights. But if your pawns could move any distance and direction you chose, the game would quickly break down into the equivalent of a pair of six-year-olds arguing about made-up powers: "I took you King with my Death-Ray Pawn! I win!" "Nuh-UH, my king is Chuck Norris!"

My point is that there is such a thing as too much choice, theoretically. Or at least unstructured choice.

Certainly this case (mandatory secondary pick) seems arbitrary. But the line has to be drawn somewhere, and this is where they drew it. Sure, they could move that line, but the next day someone would ask them to allow him to pick the Tier nine at level 1.

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Originally Posted by GPBunny View Post
Notice this forcing the player to play one way is the root problem in all the major everyday fights. (Farmer vs non farmer, PvP vs. PvE, Role player vs. Min Max or AE farmer vs Storyteller)
I don't really get that. You're saying the players playing one way (farming) and the players playing another way (non-farming) are both forced to play the same way? How is that possible?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa View Post
The main part emphasized
Please name one AT and one powerset combo who would not still be forced to take at least one damaging power if they were allowed to pick the second power for the secondary.

No set I know of has a damage power in tier1 and a non-damaging power in tier 2.

 

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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa View Post
Also, if you notice, the tier 1 in a secondary is always something you can use solo.
Poison for corruptors and controllers.

 

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Originally Posted by Super Firebug View Post
Have the devs ever offered a rationale as to WHY we're forced to take the tier-1 secondary power? As opposed to, say, making the tier-1 and tier-2 powers available at level 1, like the primary? I would love to be able to skip things like Web Grenade and Entangling Arrow if I could. Thanks.
I think they're trying to keep people from sucking right off the bat and instead make them work at it.

 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
True, but what other AT can be at all combat effective while in PFF?
MMs aren't at all combat effectiveness while in PFF. The pets will run off and die without buffs and direction from their master. I challenge you to fight longbow or PPD on a FF Mastermind without controlling your pets.

Also, if you are going to exclude buffs and control as being effective while in PFF, I believe a FF Controller can do the same thing once they get to level 32. For example, a Plant Controller can do this chain: Summon Pet > Seeds > Carrion Creepers > PFF > watch tv.

 

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Originally Posted by Sailboat View Post
I don't really get that. You're saying the players playing one way (farming) and the players playing another way (non-farming) are both forced to play the same way? How is that possible?
I'm not sure I can speak to this in general, but there's a perception that the recent nerfs to ambushes in AE is an attempt to get people to stop farming, which implies that the devs do not want people to be farming, which implies that farming is not the "right" way to play, at least in the dev's eyes.

 

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Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
Poison for corruptors and controllers.
Already covered above.

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I think it's implied your character has one prime talent and a secondary talent. Their prime talent is going to be more lenient on what you can pick out of it, while the secondary you need to just build up.


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Originally Posted by NekoNeko View Post
I think they're trying to keep people from sucking right off the bat and instead make them work at it.
Given that virtually every scrapper and brute I make skips the first attack entirely, I highly doubt it's that much better on a tanker.

Skipping the first power would make many characters better, not worse, so I doubt "not sucking" is the reason.

 

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Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
Given that virtually every scrapper and brute I make skips the first attack entirely, I highly doubt it's that much better on a tanker.

Skipping the first power would make many characters better, not worse, so I doubt "not sucking" is the reason.
I think that on the "weird" archetypes (tanker, dominator, defender, etc) that have their damage powers on the secondary, you have a viable argument. I believe it was fairly apparent, however, that the OP was speaking of the non-damage powerset secondaries.

 

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I think they should allow a bit more flexibility and allow level 1 or level 2. You cannot control people who want to play stupid. I still remember from a couple weeks ago a Stalker in the Sewer trials telling nonstop (bad) jokes. I finally asked him to attack something. Get the reply "That would break Stealth." Seriously there are few times when I wish we could go PvP in a team, but that was one of them.

So yes, people will make bad choices. But people are doing that constantly now. Some people will make very good choices and enjoy the game just one power choice more. Priceless.

 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
And your Mastermind argument is a load as well. Why would a mastermind not want to heal the guys doing his fighting for him? If his goons die, HE starts taking the hits. Healing your minions so they can keep getting their butt kicked instead of you is a perfectly villainous outlook.
Yep, I always heal my minions with my [Heal Arrow]

 

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Originally Posted by NekoNeko View Post
I think that on the "weird" archetypes (tanker, dominator, defender, etc) that have their damage powers on the secondary, you have a viable argument. I believe it was fairly apparent, however, that the OP was speaking of the non-damage powerset secondaries.
I want to emphasize what you posted previously:
Quote:
I think they're trying to keep people from sucking right off the bat and instead make them work at it.
...just so that people are reading the first quote with the second quote in mind. Just so that it emphasizes how silly both of those statements are.

Somehow skipping a ST immob will make my blasters suck right out of the gate? Instead of being able to take, say, a punch or something that will keep them alive longer by defeating my enemies faster? (Blasters belong in melee to get the most out of their damage. I cannot STAND playing ranged blasters. So boring!)

Somehow skipping Gale on my storm troller makes her immediately suck? Sorry, I think being able to skip Gale would be a freaking godsend. One more power choice! I skip Gale on my storm defs, so why not on my trollers? I would rather take O2 Boost any day of the week on any character.

Somehow skipping Web Grenade on my traps MM would have made him suck? Yet another power I would skip if I could; one that gets pretty much no use in my day-to-day playing and just takes up a power slot for me. Having the power and not using it is worse than being able to skip the power and take something else.

So... somehow... giving choices to the player... suddenly makes them more likely to "suck right off the bat"...

Hmm...

Does that make any sense?

...

...Nope, didn't think so.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rsclark View Post
Given that virtually every scrapper and brute I make skips the first attack entirely, I highly doubt it's that much better on a tanker.

Skipping the first power would make many characters better, not worse, so I doubt "not sucking" is the reason.
To be fair, with Bruising it's not a good idea to skip the first attack in a tank anyway, as it gives the targets a nice 10% DAMRES debuff.
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Originally Posted by Bubbawheat View Post
Yep, I always heal my minions with my [Heal Arrow]
Heal Arrows are awesome, but would require the targets (if a player) to be PVP flagged. In D&D, they did half damage THEN healed in my group >.>

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by NekoNeko View Post
I think that on the "weird" archetypes (tanker, dominator, defender, etc) that have their damage powers on the secondary, you have a viable argument. I believe it was fairly apparent, however, that the OP was speaking of the non-damage powerset secondaries.
And plenty of those have weak initial choices on the secondary as well. On a MM, FF characters have a knockback power. Controller FF characters have the PFF, which is explicitly not a solo power since you can't do anything with it active - it can delay a defeat, but won't help you beat anything for at least a couple dozen levels. Storm gets a crappy knockback power, just like FF MMs. Blasters get a single target immobilize in over half of the secondaries.

How does forcing characters to take crappy powers make them "not suck"?

 

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Knockback powers I use as mitigation - especially on /storms with Gale and corners.

On my Forcefielders, PFF can help me retreat, and Forcebolt has often helped me send foes down over the side o just basically KB to get them away from me to help with survival.

The immobilizes are good for helping keep things out of melee if you are not ready for them, and have saved me before when I need to run around the corner and hide

Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net

Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

 

Posted

Your post, summed up: A list of powers that are situational at best, and easily skippable if a player wishes.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterpeter View Post
Yup, that's it. Nothing to do with bruising or stalkers, neither of which existed until years later. The devs wanted to limit the choices people could make to protect them from making bad choices. They wanted to have some control over the powers people took. Maybe they went too far. They have loosened some restrictions over the years, like the restrictions on travel powers. Maybe they'll open up the secondary a bit someday. It seems unlikely, though. We're all so used to it that I don't think anyone thinks about it much these days.
Well I think about it everytime I have to pick Gale. Useful for a corr till level... 6 or something (ok maybe till DOs), and lulzy on most trollers. You'll also see in the Dominator forums that most high end builds leave the (usually) crappy tier 1 attack with an acc or acc/dam ho at most. I'd probably respec out of the tier 1 cold power on corrs and trollers once I get Sleet and/or enough accuracy.

Also, if you wanna gimp your Stalker not taking Hide, nothing new, since you can skip all MM pets if you wish.

I like some tier 1 powers, but I can see cases in which a power I like (say, Web Grenade on /Traps) could be less useful on MMs, an AT I don't play.

There are also cases in which a tier 1 power could be more useful later imo (RPD on invul, FH on regen) when you have SOs/special IOs so you could pick other powers earlier.