Thoughts on 'DFB'
Are you only going by the complaints? What about the people who don't complain, or don't post about it at all? Are they just not being counted? That doesn't seem like a very scientific method.
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If there are a significant number of people who think standing around at the market is a good time, why isn't it more common?. We do have markets we can see the people in, you know, and as a market user, I do see them. Most have zero to five people in them during US prime time hours, depending on server.
Oh, and here's my favorite part. What about the people who don't use the market? I'm totally sure Samuel_Tow is all over wanting to use the market while he's in the LFG queue.
My teaming doesn't seem particularly relevant, but I see people fighting in the streets often enough. I would imagine that sometimes it's required by a TF, sometimes it's a contact mission, and sometimes it's for badges, but I have no reason to doubt that some people also do it for no special reason on occasion, as I do. |
I'm familiar with your post history. You like to jump in threads and niggle at things you don't think are adequately provable or defensible, usually with a passive/aggressive post style. Knock yourself out. In the context of the post to which it was given as a response, I think the suggestion that we can do these two things was utterly moronic. Can we do them? Sure! Are they something any significant number of players would want to do with any regularity? I don't buy it for a second.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
There's a difference in "I'm doing these things" (which, per my previous post, I can't believe you're saying you do with any regularity. Seriously, you intentionally run RWZ hunt missions?) "so I'll jump in the queue" and "well, I really want to run a trial today, so what can I do for 30 minutes while I wait for one to form? I know, I'll street sweep and use the market!"
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Then they need to get badges out of it, because the folks with over-level badgers will not be amused. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I got caught on my lie....
A week or so back, a RL friend I'd talked into joining had started getting addicted to the DfB. Doing nothing but DfB from 1-31 and the occasional teaming with my duo.
Got to the point, anytime we'd be running tips or radios' etc, half way through the mission he'd start whinning that we should run DfB for the better xp.
I ended up lying to him, that the rewards in fact decrease with higher levels...
So he got off the gravy train before real addiction set in. Keeping him from getting burned out. He recently ran it again and realized he was still getting good XP and called me on it.
I explained to him that he never would've branched out and learned his other powers and tactics etc, about outlevelling all the cool content (took him to Croatoa to show him what he'd skipped) and he ended up thanking me for freeing him from the rush rush mentality.
I think, aside from diminishing returns, there needs to be more communication that the game isn't just Q and re-Q.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
As I see it, DFB is the BAF/Lambda of the low levels. Short, easy, with good rewards. The problem is, the 'other content' is the rest of the game, which we can't really tweak to match DFB's massive payouts.
I just think it's a mistake putting in so many Arch Villains worth so much XP so close together. They should just be elite bosses, with the biggest chunk of Exp for the Hyrda being attached to the badge.
The game has set how much effort and risk gives so much reward, DFB breaks that model hard and fast.
Another problem, explicit to the new players, is that it sets up the expectation (when coupled with the GM tutorial) that the game has you fighting larger than life things from the start.
Then they get out into the actual world and start taking on regular ol humans. I can see the confusion on their part. Having such an Epic opening and then going into a more mundane diet of regular bosses without the staging of a trial...
I have no solution though.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
What regular ol humans are you talking about? The civilians in this game are invulnerable and push us around as if we didn't exist, and the NPC's we fight have the same powers we do, albeit in different combinations.
And there is a very simple solution. Mind our own dang business. They aren't breaking any rules or abusing any unfair exploits.
And there is a very simple solution. Mind our own dang business. They aren't breaking any rules or abusing any unfair exploits.
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Think of it like this.
City of Heroes is like playing a game of balll. When you start, you're given a ball, and asked to bounce it against a wall. After a bit, you're led to go play dodgeball, and then four square, and you can move on to Basketball and Soccer and so on. You start small and progress along. Now, not everyone likes bouncing the ball against the wall, it gets boring and repetitive after you've done it so much. So, the devs introduce getting to bounce a super ball against a wall instead. It's faster, more exciting, more fun. You don't have to bounce the same old ball against the wall. You get to skip it and move on faster.
But people are just bouncing that super ball over and over and over. For older players, it's not a problem, once they bounce it enough they can just go play soccer because they already know where and how to do it. But new players, all they know how to do is bounce that little super ball.
Now there's nothing inherently wrong with people finding the little super ball and bouncing it against the wall fun. Several are paying, so if that's how they want to spend their money that's their right. But the devs are still putting out other games and still want to see the old games played. Their job is to make sure that all the games are getting played, they're not being paid to make sure people are just playing with the super ball. If they did, they'd just make super balls.
Now, is the super ball broken? Well, no. It's working just fine as a super ball. People find it fun, it does it's own little thing. But they're not really supposed to play with just the super ball. If they gave people the chance, that's all they would play with. And, that is what's happening. Some people don't see anything wrong with it. Honestly, i don't have a problem specifically if people just want to pigeonhole themselves into it, but I don't deny it is poor design on the developers part because of the environment warping effect it's having. It's not healthy for the game to have something so warping. The super ball isn't broken, but it is imbalanced in terms of what else is being played.
We players don't really have to do anything and in fact I don't think we should. Obviously we can play how we like too so we'll just not play with the super ball. But I really wouldn't expect that you're all going to be playing with the super ball in the same way for as long, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. You don't have to agree with it, but we're going to point to threads like this when the devs do eventually step in (and I don't doubt they won't) to curb things. maybe the solution will just be a different kind of super ball (that is, a 2nd trial similar to DFB) but that just kind of presents the same problems, only now you just have 2 superballs to deal with.
*shrug* it's not skin off our noses, but don't expect the free ride to remain so free. It's pretty clear to a lot of players that DFB is too little effort for too much reward, and the devs do pay attention to the game metrics. The trial may be working as designed, but that doesn't mean it matches the intent with which it was designed. I find it hard to believe that the trial was intended to allow a player to powerlevel so much, or intended to be run and re-run so often.
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And I don't find it hard to believe that it one of the intentions for the DfB trial is to give players an option to get past levels of content that have been the same for 8 years, and after they went and ripped out all the content out of Atlas Park and Galaxy City leaving players with only 2 story arcs that were boring to play after 3 days.
While some aspects of the DFB trial could probably use another look, the OP is correct that it does at least teach new players some important lessons about the game (which is more than the usual "just stand by the door or lay on the floor while the FotM farm character kills everything" does).
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
Look, nobody here can tell someone else how to play their game.
We all see the danger in DfB, like we saw with AE.
Truth is, i really don't care how u play, as long as you are happy.
BUT...
If your on my team, and u got a 50 by only doing DfB, don't know your toon and are hindering the team, i'll kick you off the team faster than you can say "No". I'll also place my 'brand' on you, making you very easy for me to spot, and not team up with.
Once people see what i see, and do what i do, you won't find a team for anything.
Dark Energon, Founder of the Freedom Legion SG on Guardian server.
(SG founded on 12-08-'09, Top100: 08-17-'10, Top50: 12-23-'10, Top25: 12-11-'11)
Crab Spider Nephila on Titan Tracker
Weekly events on Guardian: W.A.V.E. & FNFN
I don't understand why the newbie trial lasts all the way to 50. Surely it should cap at 20?
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My guess is technically you could exemp to level 2 at 49 and run through a series of similar missions to get the same xp per mob.
![](http://repeat-offenders.net/savecoh/SaveCOH_Blue_leaderboard.jpg)
Thelonious Monk
My take is I think it's fine as is and as 1 other poster pointed out; the devs will do what the devs will do if they feel something needs "fixing."
Actually, whilst I think for some vet players the DFB may be percieved as an issue, I mostly agree with Moo that this is good for the game.
So what if it gets run by some players over and again. Sooner or later they are going to realise that there's a lot more to this game than the DFB and having learned the mad skilz they need in DFB go out and find them.
I don't want to see too many other trials... and nothing that would lead on from 20+ because there's plenty of good content in the game to do now and the old content is good to visit from time to time too.
It's a very good way of introducing new players to the game and letting them learn the ropes easily and then expanding on that.
![](http://repeat-offenders.net/savecoh/SaveCOH_Blue_leaderboard.jpg)
Thelonious Monk
Whatever criticisms can be made of Death from Below, I still find it much more fun to play through than any of the "incarnate" level trials.
I don't want to see too many other trials... and nothing that would lead on from 20+ because there's plenty of good content in the game to do now and the old content is good to visit from time to time too. It's a very good way of introducing new players to the game and letting them learn the ropes easily and then expanding on that. |
Once people see what i see, and do what i do, you won't find a team for anything. |
Here are my problems with DfB:
There is no compelling reason for players to play other content. I love the story, I would play for the story alone. But to a new player, when you go from DfB to any other content, your xp goes to a crawl. Merits don't make up for it.
This leads to players playing the same mission over and over. DfB is fun, but eventually the fun tanks, and then what? Slower, less lucrative missions that have a 'story' that you have missed most of.
This will cause freebies to leave the game rather than VIP up. And that is a problem.
If things like DfB are going to be the core content of the game, then fine; we need more variety stat. If they are not, then we either need to up the rewards for whatever the core game experience is (Monty Haul) or nerf DfB.
IMHO: DfB should not award xp if your base level is too high, whatever that is (I would think 8; otherwise you level completely past King's Row).
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I wonder if some better pop-up contacts would help. As a new player, wouldn't you be interested if Positron called you when you trained to level 10, and told you about his Task Force? I would be fine if the AE tutorial guy never bothered me again, though.
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
IMHO: DfB should not award xp if your base level is too high, whatever that is (I would think 8; otherwise you level completely past King's Row or Port Oakes).
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As an ooooold man, I find it a blessing that I can skip over some of the early content. I've done Mercy, Port Oakes and CaD millions of times. An express route to level 16 or 18 is a blessing!
For a newcomer though, it could be problematic to miss so much of the game's lore that is otherwise introduced in the early levels (granted, blue-side has already gotten rid of most of that introduction, but that issue is not nearly as prevalent in the Mercy Island remake).
Still. CoH's problem has always been (roughly) level 1-20. It's a hella fun game, but it takes a while to get there. I know a lot of RL friends who have given up long before getting to the good part (only to later go "woha, what's that??" when they see me play). So, I'm on the fence about it a bit. It has both good and bad aspects, and I'm not sure whether it will ultimately prove harmful or beneficial to the game. Maybe it will cancel itself out!
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Thought for the day:
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment."
=][=
Sadly, just turning off DfB xp/kicking people out at level 8 solves one problem but creates another.
Problems I have directly observed with DfBabies:
- No idea how to communicate or what to communicate about. They still only have access to Help and Local. So they can ask in Help, where their question can get 'drowned out' (or replied to with a Tell that they don't know how to respond to). Or they ask in Local, where no one knows the answer because they are also all DfBabies.
- They don't know how to get to high level areas, so they stand around in Mercy, where their choices are another DfB or grey street mobs or Contacts they don't know how to find, who if they find them, will direct them to zones they don't know how to find. Asking about this in Help gets them laughed at, of course.
- No travel power; they haven't needed one. Now getting to the next mission is sloooow. "Air Superiority is a travel power, right?" And when they get there, the xps are slooow. And the Boss is tough, because...
- Pool Powers: Lots of DfBabies ignore taking more attacks or shields because they don't need them and can't use them. They take Leadership or other powers that sound cool because why not, having no idea when a situation is when they will be useful.
- No Inspirations: Sure, they have them, but have never used them. They won't even have the tray up, so they won't use them when needed. They have no idea that a heal is just sitting there waiting for them, let alone something that has a subtle effect like accuracy or defense.
- No Enhancements: No idea what to do even if you direct them to the enhancement screen, let alone that these are loot drops, that they can use some and not others, that they are more powerful than Gear in other games. That they can be bought or sold. That they wear out.
- Cannot get teams. Because everyone else is DfB-ing, because
...so you step out of fun, fast, Death from Below into this wierd, noisy yet silent world where you can't find teammates, Bosses are tougher than the Arch Villains you just fought, there is no loot, getting anywhere is slow, and there are buildings and chasms between you and your next 'quest' where you will be told you are too high level and sent to someone else you can't find.
...
Twinshot and Doctor Graves do not help with this.
You level past them, and even if you don't, they don't teach you how to get teams and their intro missions are almost devoid of xp. At least they do teach you that there are such things as glowies you sometimes need to find and to read dialogue.
...
Here is my suggestion:
During the Tutorial, you need to be given a choice before zoning into Atlas/Mercy; go to Twinshot/Doctor Graves for training in how to use your powers, move around the world, etc or go to DfB for training in Raiding.
When you hit EXIT to exit DfB, you should be given the choice of training missions again.
Even better would be a choice that directed you to a series of demos/cut scenes that directly showed you how to use the UI, explained about travel powers, Enhancements, stores, the Market, etc. But that will take time.
...
SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE
Naturally anything that is done will create lots of angry players who will ragequit the game (most of whom are free or preem so the bean counters won't notice, but it is still bad for the game).
The current situation is no way to retain Freems, let alone get them to VIP up.
As it is, they are going to DfB to 50, then go charging headlong Leeroy style into the first Raid they can find because they can LFG up for it. And this is without a clue as to Ouroboros, the Alpha Slot, etc which they can't get because they are still Freem aaaaghh ra54gequit.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Re the above post and not able to find contacts: TP to contact.
-------
Hew in drag baby
Sadly, just turning off DfB xp/kicking people out at level 8 solves one problem but creates another.
Problems I have directly observed with DfBabies: - No idea how to communicate or what to communicate about. They still only have access to Help and Local. So they can ask in Help, where their question can get 'drowned out' (or replied to with a Tell that they don't know how to respond to). Or they ask in Local, where no one knows the answer because they are also all DfBabies. - They don't know how to get to high level areas, so they stand around in Mercy, where their choices are another DfB or grey street mobs or Contacts they don't know how to find, who if they find them, will direct them to zones they don't know how to find. Asking about this in Help gets them laughed at, of course. - No travel power; they haven't needed one. Now getting to the next mission is sloooow. "Air Superiority is a travel power, right?" And when they get there, the xps are slooow. And the Boss is tough, because... - Pool Powers: Lots of DfBabies ignore taking more attacks or shields because they don't need them and can't use them. They take Leadership or other powers that sound cool because why not, having no idea when a situation is when they will be useful. - No Inspirations: Sure, they have them, but have never used them. They won't even have the tray up, so they won't use them when needed. They have no idea that a heal is just sitting there waiting for them, let alone something that has a subtle effect like accuracy or defense. - No Enhancements: No idea what to do even if you direct them to the enhancement screen, let alone that these are loot drops, that they can use some and not others, that they are more powerful than Gear in other games. That they can be bought or sold. That they wear out. - Cannot get teams. Because everyone else is DfB-ing, because ...so you step out of fun, fast, Death from Below into this wierd, noisy yet silent world where you can't find teammates, Bosses are tougher than the Arch Villains you just fought, there is no loot, getting anywhere is slow, and there are buildings and chasms between you and your next 'quest' where you will be told you are too high level and sent to someone else you can't find. ... Twinshot and Doctor Graves do not help with this. You level past them, and even if you don't, they don't teach you how to get teams and their intro missions are almost devoid of xp. At least they do teach you that there are such things as glowies you sometimes need to find and to read dialogue. ... Here is my suggestion: During the Tutorial, you need to be given a choice before zoning into Atlas/Mercy; go to Twinshot/Doctor Graves for training in how to use your powers, move around the world, etc or go to DfB for training in Raiding. When you hit EXIT to exit DfB, you should be given the choice of training missions again. Even better would be a choice that directed you to a series of demos/cut scenes that directly showed you how to use the UI, explained about travel powers, Enhancements, stores, the Market, etc. But that will take time. ... SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE Naturally anything that is done will create lots of angry players who will ragequit the game (most of whom are free or preem so the bean counters won't notice, but it is still bad for the game). The current situation is no way to retain Freems, let alone get them to VIP up. As it is, they are going to DfB to 50, then go charging headlong Leeroy style into the first Raid they can find because they can LFG up for it. And this is without a clue as to Ouroboros, the Alpha Slot, etc which they can't get because they are still Freem aaaaghh ra54gequit. |
Maybe you came into the game knowing how all the systems worked, how to build a character, which power picks were "good", and where to find everything, but I know I sure didn't... I had to ask a lot of questions that I'm sure the vet players considered stupid, because to them the answers seemd obvious. Even if they weren't. o_0
I'm more inclined to blame their situation on the so-called tutorial and "on-going training missions" we have now in-game being awful. They don't really address the things new players need to know in any timely or even particularly informative way... So we're in a situation now where, DFB trial or not, we've got a lot of people running around with no clue how things work.
Doing the DfB and nothing BUT the DfB for their first X-number of levels certainly isn't going to help any, but I don't think it can be blamed entirely. Even if these players ignored the thing completely they'd still have awfully wide gaps in their knowledge of the game.
@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.