StJ- Which Power to Skip?
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2011-10-15 06:23 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Most folks I talk to skip Initial Strike, if they are skipping anything in the set.
Since neither of those is a tanker, skip initial strike. Tankers probably should skip heavy blow.
Also, it is technically possible to do without one of the two AoEs. I know, I know, but it is possible.
TW/Elec Optimization
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I'd rather skip rib cracker than one of the AoEs. Sweeping Cross will still do more than rib cracker even without combos and it'll be able to hit more than one enemy. |
Originally Posted by Combat
Since neither of those is a tanker, skip initial strike. Tankers probably should skip heavy blow.
Also, it is technically possible to do without one of the two AoEs. I know, I know, but it is possible. |
And honestly, I don't feel that 7.5% resistance debuff warrants keeping the power when your other combo builders come up fast enough for it to be a non-issue. Hell, all you really need once you're at a decent level are initial strike and shin breaker.
That would suggest you'd pop Sweeping Cross right after a Crushing Uppercut. Flatly speaking, Rib Cracker's -7.5% RES does add up, flat out. Rib Cracker also ends up being stronger than Initial Strike due to scaling. You'd still, ultimately, end up doing a combo of...
Shin Breaker > Heavy Blow > Initial Strike > Crushing Uppercut > Shin Breaker > Heavy Blow > Initial Strike > Shin Breaker > Heavy Blow > Crushing Uppercut
And unless you're heavily recharged you're likely going to have a small delay on that second CU, unless you do...
Shin Breaker > Heavy Blow > Initial Strike > Crushing Uppercut > Sweeping Cross > Shin Breaker > Heavy Blow > Initial Strike > Shin Breaker > Heavy Blow > Crushing Uppercut
Don't see the point in it, really. Sweeping Cross is a poor "AoE" anyway. Rather fire off a PPP/APP AoE + Spinning Strike than rely on that garbage. It's not even really in the same line of consideration as something like Golden Dragonfly, which is just a great Single Target that just so happens to randomly AoE. It's just a slightly better than your average non-combo power.
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Rip Cracker has a higher DPA than Sweeping Cross at a 0 combo level and as a builder, it increases the damage of Crushing Uppercut instead of lowering CU's damage like Sweeping Cross does. Also the secondary effects of Rib Cracker are far superior to Sweeping Cross.|
Originally Posted by eth_Nargy
I'd rather skip rib cracker than one of the AoEs. Sweeping Cross will still do more than rib cracker even without combos and it'll be able to hit more than one enemy.
And honestly, I don't feel that 7.5% resistance debuff warrants keeping the power when your other combo builders come up fast enough for it to be a non-issue. Hell, all you really need once you're at a decent level are initial strike and shin breaker. |
When you mention not needing any more builders than Initial Strike and Shin Breaker, I assume you are speaking as a Tank? If so, you are probably right. the difference in DPA is negligable on a Tank but it becomes far more pronounced on the other ATs. Also the chain of Initial Strike > Shin Breaker > Initial Strike > Crushing Uppercut > something, requiers quite an extreme amount of recharge.
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Actually, that suggested chain is flat-out impossible. Even at the 400% recharge cap that's not possible, I believe. The most realistic chain, I recall, with basic IOing, is...|
Originally Posted by Giant2005
Rip Cracker has a higher DPA than Sweeping Cross at a 0 combo level and as a builder, it increases the damage of Crushing Uppercut instead of lowering CU's damage like Sweeping Cross does. Also the secondary effects of Rib Cracker are far superior to Sweeping Cross.
When you mention not needing any more builders than Initial Strike and Shin Breaker, I assume you are speaking as a Tank? If so, you are probably right. the difference in DPA is negligable on a Tank but it becomes far more pronounced on the other ATs. Also the chain of Initial Strike > Shin Breaker > Initial Strike > Crushing Uppercut > something, requiers quite an extreme amount of recharge. |
Shin Breaker > Rib Cracker > Heavy Blow > Crushing Uppercut > Shin Breaker > Rib Cracker > Heavy Blow > Shin Breaker > Rib Cracker > Crushing Uppercut
You might be able to drop one of the attacks near the end, sans CU, with /extreme/ recharge. But that would be a very, very expensive build and the DPA bonus would be so minor that you'd basically be spending a few billion influence to just /slightly/ beat this attack chain. The reason for this is purely due to CU's base recharge time.
Ultimately, StJ is looking to be a set that doesn't benefit THAT much from IOing due to just how the set works. It's beginning to really reek of a Super Reflexes esque Melee Set, which isn't exactly a /bad/ thing.
If you aren't a tanker, and are getting around, say 140%ish or higher Recharge, skip Initial and Sweeping. If you're not getting that kind of recharge, just skip Sweeping, because Spinning Strike is just cooler than Sweeping anyway.
If you're a Tanker, high-recharge builds on Tankers aren't very common. Just skip Sweeping. If you want another power, skip Heavy. No point in skipping Rib Cracker, honestly. It adds up.
To me, I think StJ is a set that would benefit more from +DMG than +RECH, just due to purely how CU works. It'd be interesting to compare how that goes. But, who knows. The verdict seems to be StJ is a good set, but it's not pushing the Single Damage Dominance card compared to it's quirky AoE. Granted Spinning Strike is a fantastic AoE, it's quirky. And Sweeping Cross is pretty garbage of an AoE later in life.
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You might be right, I didn't bother checking the numbers (still haven't actually) I just took my Brute's chain of Shin Breaker > Rib Cracker > Gloom > Shin Breaker > Crushing Uppercut and tried to re-purpose it to substitute in Initial Strike for Tanks. In hindsight, it might not work the same due to Initial Strike's shorter animation.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Actually, that suggested chain is flat-out impossible. Even at the 400% recharge cap that's not possible, I believe.
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My fiddling in Mids' makes think that way too for brutes anyway. I would like to have IS too, but there're too many other powers that are more useful.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
Most folks I talk to skip Initial Strike, if they are skipping anything in the set.
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Here are the chains I've calculated. DPS is for unenhanced numbers no taking into account -res:
1) RC>SB>HB>IS>CU>RC>SB>HB>IS>SC - 64 DPS
2) HB>SB>RC>HB>CU>RC>HB>SB>RC>HB>SC>RC 62
3) RC>SB>HB>CU>RC>SB>HB>SC - 66.78
4) RC>SB>HB>CU>RC>SB>SC - 67.07
5) RC>HB>SB>CU>HB>SB - 69.77
6) SB>HB>RC>SB>CU - 72
That last chain requires 300%ish in CU and 336% in shin breaker. Those chains are listed in order of the recharge it takes to use them.
TW/Elec Optimization
on my street justice/regen brute i am planning on skipping heavy blow and possibly taunt (he will be a very scrapperish brute)
my combo builder chain is initial strike, rib cracker, shin breaker since the rech on the powers base is 4 sec, 6 sec and 8 sec respectively
while rib cracker by itself is not a huge debuff, you can add an achilles proc to shin breaker which you could do a total of 27.5% resist debuff, if you have enough rech you could get the rib cracker debuff to stack
Brute is Elec or Energy armor?
I got my doubts, not sure if I should roll a StJ/SD scrapper or StJ/Energy armor brute.
Whats better so far? Thank you.
I skipped Taunt and Initial Strike.
At this moment my StJ/SR scrapper is at 42 with 88% and change global recharge. I started out taking all powers but taunt, then at 38 respecced to take out Heavy Blow and Sweeping Cross.
I haven't done the math for just how much DPS I lose to this, but I gain two things,
First, a smooth attack chain where Initial Strike is always up after any other attack. I expect that when I get enough recharge I'll swap out IS for HB. This may call for a separate low-level exemping build.
Second, the ability to fit in Spring Attack, and Assault.
Those are personal preferences. I like having a smooth attack chain as soon as possible, I like the look of Spring Attack, I like lots of Assault on teams.
Actually, that brings up a question...
When starting off, are there any powers I should be sure to avoid or take? Obviously Waiting until Rib Cracker opens up (at level 8 for Brute/Scrapper) is not really a good idea for a new character... but should I bother to pick up Sweeping Cross?
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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There's zero reason to skip SC in a leveling build; it is your first combo ability, and is very solid even against a single target. If you're any good at lining up melee cones, it is awesomesauce on a stick. Considering it is one of only two AoE powers, I don't see myself ever skipping it in any build even end game. Unless you have obscene amounts of recharge, Spinning Strike alone won't be up often enough to chain. Even if it is, you're mssing out on the build 3 points > AoE > Combat Readyiness > Other AoE burst trick.
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Actually, that brings up a question...
When starting off, are there any powers I should be sure to avoid or take? Obviously Waiting until Rib Cracker opens up (at level 8 for Brute/Scrapper) is not really a good idea for a new character... but should I bother to pick up Sweeping Cross? |
Hmmm...for a Tanker...
Initial Strike - Shin Breaker - Initial Strike - Crushing Uppercut - Initial Strike - Sweeping Cross - Repeat might not be to bad.
Initial Strike has bruising for -Resist. Shin Breaker can be fitted with a -Resist Proc and a Purple Proc. Sweeping Cross can be fitted with a -Resist Proc (different one than the one in Shin Breaker) and a Purple Proc.
Sweeping Cross does do a little less than Heavy Blow in the DPA on Combo 1 (but surpasses it on combo level 2 and 3), but if CU misses, that gives SC a chance to do COmbo level 3 damage (and with enough +ACC/+TOHit that should be the case).
And while Sweeping Cross will put out a little less DPS than Heavy Blow at Combo Lvl 1, the Initial Strike before SC can be replaced by Combat Readiness everytime it's up to give SC combo level 3 damage.
That string also gives 3 Purple Procs (Hold Damage Proc in CU)
Total time of chain...8.976 seconds...enough for Combat Readiness to go through the entire chain. Roughly 122.63 DPS not counting all the -Resist the set would be throwing around. Adding in RC in the place of 2 IS's has the DPS go down, but maybe replacing 1 IS with RC will allow the -Resist of it to make up for it (I don't know though).
Adding in Gloom instead would likely be the way to go, but then you'd lose a combo builder.
But -60 Resist doesn't seem to bad to go with at 122 DPS for the Tanker.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I agree entirely. Also, for anyone playing their first StJ toon and especially if they have a respec lying around I strongly recommend getting every attack and finding out what you like. Then you can start worrying about change.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Impact
There's zero reason to skip SC in a leveling build; it is your first combo ability, and is very solid even against a single target. If you're any good at lining up melee cones, it is awesomesauce on a stick. Considering it is one of only two AoE powers, I don't see myself ever skipping it in any build even end game. Unless you have obscene amounts of recharge, Spinning Strike alone won't be up often enough to chain. Even if it is, you're mssing out on the build 3 points > AoE > Combat Readyiness > Other AoE burst trick.
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Also, Force Feedback proc in Spinning Strike is generally your friend. Except when the dirty traitor doesn't go off for a whole mission. It's the Gulag for you, and Mr. Perception Bias!
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This is the way to go. Me and eth_Nargy talked about this at some length and really there is no better attack to pull, unless for some reason you wanted to lose one of the combo finishers, which I can't imagine.|
Originally Posted by eth_Nargy
I'd rather skip rib cracker than one of the AoEs. Sweeping Cross will still do more than rib cracker even without combos and it'll be able to hit more than one enemy.
And honestly, I don't feel that 7.5% resistance debuff warrants keeping the power when your other combo builders come up fast enough for it to be a non-issue. Hell, all you really need once you're at a decent level are initial strike and shin breaker. |
The attack really doesn't do enough (Secondary wise) to warrant keeping it. For the very odd time when things aren't hitting enough to fill my entire attack chain, I have a single +acc/+dmg IO in Punch (Fighting) to fill that gap.... But at... 40+ that gap very rarely happens.
Just my two cents.
Nekron: Beam Rifle / Poison Corruptor and Slayer of Evil!! (Exalted)
Intergalaktic: Fire / Time Corruptor (Exalted)
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There is a reason to keep it! It's called a knee to the face!
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Originally Posted by _Elektro_
This is the way to go. Me and eth_Nargy talked about this at some length and really there is no better attack to pull, unless for some reason you wanted to lose one of the combo finishers, which I can't imagine.
The attack really doesn't do enough (Secondary wise) to warrant keeping it. For the very odd time when things aren't hitting enough to fill my entire attack chain, I have a single +acc/+dmg IO in Punch (Fighting) to fill that gap.... But at... 40+ that gap very rarely happens. Just my two cents. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I'll definitely agree... it's an excellent animation! |
Originally Posted by BrandX
There is a reason to keep it! It's called a knee to the face!
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Nekron: Beam Rifle / Poison Corruptor and Slayer of Evil!! (Exalted)
Intergalaktic: Fire / Time Corruptor (Exalted)
I'd say skip Initial Strike, if possible. Based on a level 38 scrapper with moderate IOing, I can chain together Heavy Blow, Rib Cracker and Curbstom- I mean, Shin Breaker fairly well. I'd hate losing Sweeping Cross, just because sometimes 2 AoEs are nice.
Shortspark: 50 Fire/Fire tanker
Emberblast: 50 Fire/Fire blaster
Jessie Inferno: 50 Fire/SD scrapper
a wizard: 50 Rad/Sonic defender
The Nemesis Plothole: 50 StJ/Reg scrapper
Jessie Inferno: 50 Fire/SD scrapper
a wizard: 50 Rad/Sonic defender
The Nemesis Plothole: 50 StJ/Reg scrapper
I haven't skipped any powers yet, have a level 28 StJ/WP brute but haven't taken taunt or combat readiness yet but will be taking CR at 30
we can't run from who we are, our destiny chooses us.
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global @Enrico Furioso
Enrico Furioso Level 50 DP/Rad Corr
I'm currently working on both a StJ/SD scrapper and a StJ/EA brute. I've planned out my builds on Mids, and realized that to get every power in that I'd like, I'm going to have to drop one of the StJ powers for my later level build (other than confront/taunt, which I wasn't taking anyway).
My question is, which is the better power to skip - initial strike or heavy blow? Obviously I want a smooth attack chain with the best dps potential. They both take the same IO sets so that isn't a consideration.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Also, if there's a reson to pick one for brute and the other for scrapper (such as fury building), please let me know. Thanks all.