Need recommendations for a new graphics card!
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2011-10-02 13:42 in Player Questions
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Is this right? Is it really running 3 year old drivers?
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Originally Posted by SpaceNut
Monitor: Plug and Play Monitor
Monitor's Max Resolution: 1600,1200 Video Device Name: NVIDIA GeForce 8600 GT Manufacturer / Chip: NVIDIA / GeForce 8600 GT Video Memory: 512.0 MB Driver Version: 6.14.0011.7519 Driver Date: 5/16/2008 2:01:00 PM Driver Language: English |
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An 8800 Ultra? The Cedar Mill P4 would probably be able to handle it (8800 Ultra is from mid '07, Cedar Mill from the start of '06, so it's not like they're that far apart generation-wise). Even then, I would consider any Pentium 4 'bottom tier' (being generous with that description), seeing as Intel totally abandoned that line in 2008, so the only ones you can get are ones that have set on a shelf for several years, seeing as no one wants them. They were sub-par processors back when they were king, and they're no better now.|
Originally Posted by Morgan Reed
Except that the Pentium 4 I linked to is purchasable. Right now.
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Of course, I did say "long as you buy something above the bottom tier CPUs"! You would be pretty hard pressed to make an argument that a P4 isn't bottom tier in this day and age!
Again, long as you don't get a bottom-of-the-barrel processor, you'll be fine.*
*No, an ARM Cortex A8 does not count! Nor do XMOS processors, even if for <$8 you can run 8 threads at once!
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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It's clear that's the case on your side (you're the one arguing credentials and trying to force a point with irrelevant examples). Perhaps that rule was true at one time (such as when CPU's had one or two cores and the price difference mainly reflected clock difference), I don't know when you picked it up. Perhaps that rule is even true if you look at gaming in general (though I don't think it is), but wrong in the context of CoH. In either case you shouldn't feel the need to be insulted for Case.|
Originally Posted by Morgan Reed
Second, you are assuming there is anything resembling a discussion involved after I posted my suggested rule of thumb, rather than an attempt to swing e-peen around.
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The argument isn't personal, so please don't take it this way. We're trying to make sure that if someone buys a new CPU or new GPU the choice is good. In this context comparing a defunct CPU (such as this person's CPU) to the price of a new GPU doesn't even make sense. Also if he ends up buying a new CPU, a $90 CPU with a $150 GPU could make better sense than buying either at $90 or $150. If he wanted to do video but didn't mind running a game at a lower res, a $200 CPU with a $100 GPU would make sense.
The point is, suggesting hardware that's suitable for the purpose is a good way to go, and this "rule" you quote looks to me like it would lead to worse choices.
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Originally Posted by Morgan Reed
SIt looks like you are going to be extremely limited in the cards you can use. From my searches, it looks like your motherboard can only use PCIEx16 cards, and I can only find 1 card that is out of stock on Newegg.
While Newegg isn't the end all be all of computer supplies, it does have a tendency to show stocking trends. It might be time to consider a new computer upgrade. |
Actually this is incorrect. PCI-E 2.0 devices are backwards compatible with PCI-E 1.0 and 1.1 devices.
You could use a PCI-E 1.0 card in a PCI-E 2.0 motherboard. You can use a PCI-E 2.0 card in a PCI-E 1.0 compliant motherboard. It simply won't get maximum throughput available for the card.
So he could pretty much grab any current card he wants and it'll work just fine. He just has to make some allowances for the mis-match not providing full bandwidth.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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A couple issues I see here.|
Originally Posted by SpaceNut
I don't really have a preference, but I've always used nVidia, so I'm a bit more comfortable with them. Here's the dump from my system right now:
---System information gathered by CoH Helper version 0.2.0.2--- DxDiag gathered at October 3, 2011 14:36 (-04:00) Operating System: Windows XP Professional (5.1, Build 2600) Service Pack 3 (2600.xpsp_sp3_gdr.101209-1647) Memory: 3072MB |
Part of your problem here is going to be the following. Any card giving appreciable performance gains is going to have more memory on it.
The ACTUAL problem lies in your 32-bit OS and the upper memory issue it has (essentially it's shadowing video memory in the UMA area). Cards with large amounts of on-board memory can cause this UMA shadowing to begin to impinge on the amount of memory available to the OS and apps.
The second problem is, can your power supply handle it? If your PSU is some stock piece, it may or may not. If you can pop the side of the case and see if there's any make/model info that'd help.
Honestly, your CPU, while not THE greatest, isn't really standing in your way much. NO, you don't want to strap a GTX580 in there. But, honestly, something like a GTX550 Ti or the like would probably serve you just fine. We just need to make sure the PSU is outputting enough power AND that it has the proper connectors to support the upgrade.
Okay in a WORST case scenario I could see this being the case.
- Need a new video card.
- Need a new PSU.
- Need to buy and install a 64-bit OS.
So:
- GTX550 Ti: $145 Shipped
- Power Supply: $60 Shipped
- Win7 Home Premium 64-bit: $100
That still within your range of "okay"?
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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And unless he is going to drop some *serious* money, he wont notice the few dropped frames that he could potentially be getting... if any at all
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Actually this is incorrect. PCI-E 2.0 devices are backwards compatible with PCI-E 1.0 and 1.1 devices.
You could use a PCI-E 1.0 card in a PCI-E 2.0 motherboard. You can use a PCI-E 2.0 card in a PCI-E 1.0 compliant motherboard. It simply won't get maximum throughput available for the card. So he could pretty much grab any current card he wants and it'll work just fine. He just has to make some allowances for the mis-match not providing full bandwidth. |
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I'm not sure when people started taking any objection as a reaction to a "personal attack," or as being "insulted."|
Originally Posted by General_CoH
It's clear that's the case on your side (you're the one arguing credentials and trying to force a point with irrelevant examples). Perhaps that rule was true at one time (such as when CPU's had one or two cores and the price difference mainly reflected clock difference), I don't know when you picked it up. Perhaps that rule is even true if you look at gaming in general (though I don't think it is), but wrong in the context of CoH. In either case you shouldn't feel the need to be insulted for Case.
The argument isn't personal, so please don't take it this way. We're trying to make sure that if someone buys a new CPU or new GPU the choice is good. In this context comparing a defunct CPU (such as this person's CPU) to the price of a new GPU doesn't even make sense. Also if he ends up buying a new CPU, a $90 CPU with a $150 GPU could make better sense than buying either at $90 or $150. If he wanted to do video but didn't mind running a game at a lower res, a $200 CPU with a $100 GPU would make sense. The point is, suggesting hardware that's suitable for the purpose is a good way to go, and this "rule" you quote looks to me like it would lead to worse choices. |
But as for as to when I picked it up, as recently as Febuary of this year (Revision3 site, probable ad before video starts.)
The question in particular starts around the 26:40 time mark if you want all the background, but the real meat of the "rule of thumb" is around 28:35.
I could swear that there was a more recent video of him confirming the rule of thumb... But I can't find it easily.
(Also, bear in mind when I first posted the rule of thumb, it was before knowing the questioners system. It was easier to just pass on that guideline than require data from the questioner that they might not have wanted to part with [since it wasn't in the first post].)
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Actually this is incorrect. PCI-E 2.0 devices are backwards compatible with PCI-E 1.0 and 1.1 devices.
You could use a PCI-E 1.0 card in a PCI-E 2.0 motherboard. You can use a PCI-E 2.0 card in a PCI-E 1.0 compliant motherboard. It simply won't get maximum throughput available for the card. So he could pretty much grab any current card he wants and it'll work just fine. He just has to make some allowances for the mis-match not providing full bandwidth. |
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Originally Posted by Frostbiter
PCIE 2.0 cards should work in a PCIEx16 slot, just at lower speeds. Or at least thats what my search-fu tells me.
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Maybe it would work great. I don't know.
But you are correct, I made it sound much more absolute than it really was.
Don't worry, PCIe versions are supported both ways.
The 8600GT is a low 40 watt card with no external power connector. The GT 430 uses a similar amount of power and also doesn't require an external PCIe power connector. Performance wise compared to the 8600GT, can't say definitively, in the neighborhood of 20-25% faster.
Ultramode? Not likely. Like everything it depends on your resolution, AA mode, but you might be able to nudge hard shadows or reflection on if you run at 1440x900 or 1280x800. Just don't expect a lot.
A video card where UM shouldn't be a problem on the GPU side of the equation will need a reasonably sized power supply, at least 360 watts at 12 volts to be safe. A good modern 80 plus power supply in the 430-450 watt range will suffice for all but the high end cards on je_saist's list.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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Originally Posted by Gangrel_EU
And unless he is going to drop some *serious* money, he wont notice the few dropped frames that he could potentially be getting... if any at all
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He'd never notice it since the CPU wouldn't be able to keep such a card supplied with data anyhoo.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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That's the thing about such rules though. Like actual thumbs, they're made to be broken.|
Originally Posted by Morgan Reed
(Also, bear in mind when I first posted the rule of thumb, it was before knowing the questioners system. It was easier to just pass on that guideline than require data from the questioner that they might not have wanted to part with [since it wasn't in the first post].)
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*Shoves his Chicago-boy upbringing back into a dark closet*
Ahem. Now where was I?
Aphorisms are nice and all. But it's usually better to get data before trading them, as such aphorisms can be highly situational.
Then again, I could trade stories about having TWO uncles who've had thumbs cut off...
Now where'd I put the damn lock for that closet...
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| That was actually already covered in this thread: |
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Seeing as how I have not tried it myself, I am not comfortable suggesting it. That is because it is one more tech hurdle to have to cover, that could go wrong. Maybe it would work great. I don't know. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Rather than start a new thread I'm in a similar position to Spacenut. I've got at 18 month old HP Pavilion, off the shelf job, which is having graphics card issues. The fan has started making a bad noise and if I start playing games it seems to over heat and cuts out.
So, unless I have any luck tonight tinkering with it, I'll be replacing it. It's currently a GT230 or there abouts, and I'm looking at chucking £100-£150 at it. I've had mostly Nvidia cards with little issue (apart from this one obviously 
) so would start there.
Is it simply the higher number the better the card?
No, no really. With Nvidia cards the first number is generation. So 2,3,4,5 is the series. The second number is the type. 2,3,4,are low end cards. 5,6 are medium range gaming cards. 7,8 are high end game cards. So a 260 is better than a 230 and a 430.
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Ahh, OK that helps. Generally newer generation cards would be better too I guess? So the 430 would be better than the 230 still.
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Originally Posted by Frostbiter
No, no really. With Nvidia cards the first number is generation. So 2,3,4,5 is the series. The second number is the type. 2,3,4,are low end cards. 5,6 are medium range gaming cards. 7,8 are high end game cards. So a 260 is better than a 230 and a 430.
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Right. Although I would skip the 300 series because they are just re-branded 200's.
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Yep, and a 260 is better than a 540....|
Originally Posted by Diggis
Ahh, OK that helps. Generally newer generation cards would be better too I guess? So the 430 would be better than the 230 still.
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This is where the price difference can also help quite a bit.
If you ever get stuck though, you can always ask here before hand.
Websites such as tomshardware.com can help as well with their charts/reviews...
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Kinda. Currently, for nVidia, it works like this.|
Originally Posted by Diggis
Rather than start a new thread I'm in a similar position to Spacenut. I've got at 18 month old HP Pavilion, off the shelf job, which is having graphics card issues. The fan has started making a bad noise and if I start playing games it seems to over heat and cuts out.
So, unless I have any luck tonight tinkering with it, I'll be replacing it. It's currently a GT230 or there abouts, and I'm looking at chucking £100-£150 at it. I've had mostly Nvidia cards with little issue (apart from this one obviously ) so would start there.Is it simply the higher number the better the card? |
The first number indicates the generation of the card.
260
460
560
The second number indicates the card's class.
A 480 is more powerful than a 470 which is more powerful than a 460.
The third number is, occasionally, used for various "half-step" cards. Usually these cards are identical to the next model up but in some way "crippled" or specialty cards (like single-card SLI setups). You tend not to see these cards on the market very long before they're succeeded by a dedicated product to fill that space (i.e. the GTX465).
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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The second number is true relative to the first number but not always true if the first number is different. This is because the performance of a mid-range card of yesterday may be classified as a low end card of today. Then it gets even murkier at the very low end.|
Originally Posted by Frostbiter
No, no really. With Nvidia cards the first number is generation. So 2,3,4,5 is the series. The second number is the type. 2,3,4,are low end cards. 5,6 are medium range gaming cards. 7,8 are high end game cards. So a 260 is better than a 230 and a 430.
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For example the 9500GT was slightly faster than the 8600GT and the 9400GT was faster than the 8500GT. The GT 220 is about the same as the 9500GT however the GT 520 is much slower compared to the GT 220 while the GT 430 is faster than either the GT 520 or GT 220 with the GT 240 faster than all of them.
It's easier with a scorecard and fortunately Tom's Hardware provides one. There are still differences in performance among the cards in the same tier and they are listed in oldest to newest but they are faster than the tier bellow them and slower than the tier above them.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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Ahh, that is perfect! I tried to find something like this on there last night but failed. Now it's like all my Xmas' have come at once. Cheers Father Xmas!|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
It's easier with a scorecard and fortunately Tom's Hardware provides one. There are still differences in performance among the cards in the same tier and they are listed in oldest to newest but they are faster than the tier bellow them and slower than the tier above them.
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All right, final question, hopefully:
Is there any difference between the box branding? As in ASUS or PNY or EVGA?
At the moment, the best I can find in my price range is a PNY GTX 550 TI. Is this going to be the same as an ASUS GTX 550 TI?
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Originally Posted by Diggis
All right, final question, hopefully:
Is there any difference between the box branding? As in ASUS or PNY or EVGA? At the moment, the best I can find in my price range is a PNY GTX 550 TI. Is this going to be the same as an ASUS GTX 550 TI? |
Usually the differences are fairly minor.
Some of the EVGA ones are slightly factory overclocked. But, for the most part, a GTX550 Ti is a GTX550 Ti.
Just remember 2 things:
- Your power supply needs a 6-pin power connector for this (and should be over 400W).
- You'll need two expansion slots worth of space to install it. Even if the mount-plate is a single-slot.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Usually the differences are fairly minor.
Some of the EVGA ones are slightly factory overclocked. But, for the most part, a GTX550 Ti is a GTX550 Ti. Just remember 2 things:
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eh? Damn, this is all confusing. This is the base machine I have :HP Pavilion Elite HPE-163uk Desktop PC
I assume by expansion slot, you mean another PCI slot? It has 1 free and I'll be taking out the old video card so I guess thats OK. How do I check the size of the power supply? I have serious doubts it'll be big enough.
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Originally Posted by Diggis
eh? Damn, this is all confusing. This is the base machine I have :HP Pavilion Elite HPE-163uk Desktop PC I assume by expansion slot, you mean another PCI slot? It has 1 free and I'll be taking out the old video card so I guess thats OK. How do I check the size of the power supply? I have serious doubts it'll be big enough. |
Okay, it took a bit of looking but I found out your PSU is a 460W unit.
What you're going to want to do is pop the side and see if it has a connector in there that looks like this:
If not, there are adapter cables that can be used to daisy-chain off a regular molex connector.
If you have one expansion slot free right next to the current lot where your existing video card is, you should be golden.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Oh. One last thing. Take a look at the amount of memory on the thing too.|
Originally Posted by Diggis
All right, final question, hopefully:
Is there any difference between the box branding? As in ASUS or PNY or EVGA? At the moment, the best I can find in my price range is a PNY GTX 550 TI. Is this going to be the same as an ASUS GTX 550 TI? |
There are 550's sporting 1GB and 550's sporting 2GB.
If you're sticking with a 32-bit OS, you do NOT want a 2GB unit, as it will impinge (disastrously) on your system memory footprint.
If you're moving to 64-bit and/or upping system memory, it's your choice. The 2GB unit would give smoother framerates at higher resolutions.
Also, if you're looking to upgrade memory, the previous link is to memory guaranteed to work for your particular machine. You can chuck up to 16GB into your machine for a grand total of about $110 US.
If you're actually in the UK, use this link instead. The 8GB kits are £40 including VAT. So 16GB would run you about £80, shipped.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Looked at the internals, 460w and has some of those plugs lying around. Looks like i'll spend some money tomorrow. 
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Thanks, I have a 64 bit machine, but I'll likely have to go with the 1gb based on price. RAM would be nice, it has 8, so can hold off for now. And yeah, I'm in the UK. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Oh. One last thing. Take a look at the amount of memory on the thing too.
There are 550's sporting 1GB and 550's sporting 2GB. If you're sticking with a 32-bit OS, you do NOT want a 2GB unit, as it will impinge (disastrously) on your system memory footprint. If you're moving to 64-bit and/or upping system memory, it's your choice. The 2GB unit would give smoother framerates at higher resolutions. Also, if you're looking to upgrade memory, the previous link is to memory guaranteed to work for your particular machine. You can chuck up to 16GB into your machine for a grand total of about $110 US. If you're actually in the UK, use this link instead. The 8GB kits are £40 including VAT. So 16GB would run you about £80, shipped. |
Thanks for all your help.
Second, you are assuming there is anything resembling a discussion involved after I posted my suggested rule of thumb, rather than an attempt to swing e-peen around.