Are we allowed to talk about farming?


Another_Fan

 

Posted

...given that it's what most people use the AE for? Zwillinger even said in the latest Ustream that Paragon Studios understands that a lot of people like to farm. So I just wanted to check if it was safe to discuss it here.

I mean there's this thread over in the brute forum about which character makes the very best farmer:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=250051

...so it SEEMS like Paragon Studios doesn't have a problem with this. I just wanted to be sure.

Sorry for making a thread about this as a conversational topic. I couldn't find any official word on the matter. Was hoping someone in the AE community would know.

Please note I'm not talking about exploits. (Those are things that MARTy handles.) I'm talking about running AE missions that are reward-centric. (That you can often repeat in the same manner as Incarnate Trials.)

Cheers!


 

Posted

/e Grabs popcorn

/e Waits for the explosion


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanatos View Post
...given that it's what most people use the AE for? Zwillinger even said in the latest Ustream that Paragon Studios understands that a lot of people like to farm. So I just wanted to check if it was safe to discuss it here.

I mean there's this thread over in the brute forum about which character makes the very best farmer:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=250051

...so it SEEMS like Paragon Studios doesn't have a problem with this. I just wanted to be sure.

Sorry for making a thread about this as a conversational topic. I couldn't find any official word on the matter. Was hoping someone in the AE community would know.

Please note I'm not talking about exploits. (Those are things that MARTy handles.) I'm talking about running AE missions that are reward-centric. (That you can often repeat in the same manner as Incarnate Trials.)

Cheers!
Well, I keep seeing it pop up in forum threads that aren't shut down, so it's at least glossed over. Paragon may 'understand' but it's a hot-button topic they can't really afford to take stance on either way so I doubt they'll officially sanction this thread or anything but they may not close it.


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Posted

Nearly all MMO activity is farming. Incarnate trials? You know, the ones people do to get threads and stuff, because when they get enough threads, they get something they want? Farming. There is no real difference between me running five tip missions to progress towards an a-merit and me running 5 AE missions to progress towards a stack of alchemical silver to dump on the market.


 

Posted

TopDoc had his famous CEBR FARM 1-50 in 3 HOURS OR LESS mission banned shortly after MARTy's activation. Then, after petitioning it, the dev team unbanned it.

This would tend to indicate that they have no issue with farms in AE if they are willing to unban them after MARTy flags them as possible exploits. They've ruled on this one very publicly, and I know of other farms that got similar treatment already.

OTOH, anybody here know what happened to a certain recent thread with a lot of activity decrying certain Fire-themed AE ambush missions? Hmmmmmmm....could have sworn that was JUST HERE a moment ago. :-)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
Nearly all MMO activity is farming. Incarnate trials? You know, the ones people do to get threads and stuff, because when they get enough threads, they get something they want? Farming. There is no real difference between me running five tip missions to progress towards an a-merit and me running 5 AE missions to progress towards a stack of alchemical silver to dump on the market.
I'd just like to say this opinion is one I don't agree with. That is all.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDead View Post
I'd just like to say this opinion is one I don't agree with. That is all.
Hypocrisy 101: Many of us believe that wrongs aren't wrong if it's done by nice people like ourselves.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crysys View Post
Hypocrisy 101: Many of us believe that wrongs aren't wrong if it's done by nice people like ourselves.
-shrug- Just saying everything is farming and trying to validate it doesn't make it so.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDead View Post
-shrug- Just saying everything is farming and trying to validate it doesn't make it so.
I would agree that the Incarnate Trials is a type of farming.

I would disagree that running 10 tips + 1 alignment towards an A merit and farming for tickets are both farming.

(Not that there's anything wrong with either mind you)

Farming, to me, is not having to travel from place to place while running the same task.

AE farm = Run mission, pop out of mission, go right back in, rinse, repeat

Tip Missions = Run mission, hopefully get more tips during the mission, pop out of mission, travel to next, rinse, repeat.

Granted I still think both situations are repetitive...


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Posted

I wouldn't mind farming if AE wasn't unfortunately designed to treat all arcs equally, thus shoving story-based content out of the limelight. Discussing it is valid in my book, although it's a damned shame that it's being given higher priority by the system than stories.

I still think it's incredibly lame and cheaty, but as long as it's not harming me, IE getting my arcs shoved to the bottom of the list and onestarred by farmers, whatever, you know?

Sooo... I guess the raw, binary answer to the question is "yes." But don't expect much sympathy.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDead View Post
-shrug- Just saying everything is farming and trying to validate it doesn't make it so.
What is your definition of "farming" then? In every MMO I've ever played, people have "farmed" materials, "farmed" whatever the PvP reward was, "farmed" for money, "farmed" for XP. It's all the same activity, so far as I can tell. If you're doing something over and over to get the same reward, you're farming. If you're playing whatever looks fun without much regard to rewards, you're not.

If I get together with some friends and we do tip missions and mostly stay in character and play up the Noble Hero thing, we're not farming. If I get together with friends and we rush through five tip missions as fast as we can to get a morality mission which we also rush through because all we care about is the a-merit, we're farming.

I don't really see why it matters what you're farming. Does it really matter whether the reward is "tickets" or "inf" or "the badges for my T9 raid gear"? I don't think it does.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SolarSentai View Post
I would agree that the Incarnate Trials is a type of farming.

I would disagree that running 10 tips + 1 alignment towards an A merit and farming for tickets are both farming.

(Not that there's anything wrong with either mind you)

Farming, to me, is not having to travel from place to place while running the same task.

AE farm = Run mission, pop out of mission, go right back in, rinse, repeat

Tip Missions = Run mission, hopefully get more tips during the mission, pop out of mission, travel to next, rinse, repeat.

Granted I still think both situations are repetitive...
My gripe is the definition is so broad logging into the game becomes farming. Do you log in to get experience to level up? Farming. It's ludicrous.


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Posted

I am rather sympathetic to Twoflower on that, by the way. I will happily run a fire ambush farm a few times to get tickets, but... I have an interest in at most two or three such maps. I have an interest in dozens upon dozens of story arcs. And yet, when I search for them, it's hard to find them.

I really wish the AE system made it easier to find the story content, because the fact is, the story content in AE is some of the best writing available anywhere in CoH.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
What is your definition of "farming" then? In every MMO I've ever played, people have "farmed" materials, "farmed" whatever the PvP reward was, "farmed" for money, "farmed" for XP. It's all the same activity, so far as I can tell. If you're doing something over and over to get the same reward, you're farming. If you're playing whatever looks fun without much regard to rewards, you're not.

If I get together with some friends and we do tip missions and mostly stay in character and play up the Noble Hero thing, we're not farming. If I get together with friends and we rush through five tip missions as fast as we can to get a morality mission which we also rush through because all we care about is the a-merit, we're farming.

I don't really see why it matters what you're farming. Does it really matter whether the reward is "tickets" or "inf" or "the badges for my T9 raid gear"? I don't think it does.
I'd agree with Solar above for the most part I think.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDead View Post
My gripe is the definition is so broad logging into the game becomes farming. Do you log in to get experience to level up? Farming. It's ludicrous.
Well, that's the thing.

If my goal is to do the same thing over and over to get XP, say, street-sweeping in Perez Park? Yeah, that's farming.

If I'm going around adventuring because adventuring is fun, and I get levels, then I'm not farming.

As long as the action is basically repetitive and driven by the mechanical rewards, yes, it's farming. Same emotional experience, same effects on my future gameplay, and so on.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolarSentai View Post
Farming, to me, is not having to travel from place to place while running the same task.
Huh, that's an interesting distinction to draw, and one I hadn't thought of.

I guess I tend to view that more as a question of efficiency within the task, rather than of a change in task.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
Well, that's the thing.

If my goal is to do the same thing over and over to get XP, say, street-sweeping in Perez Park? Yeah, that's farming.

If I'm going around adventuring because adventuring is fun, and I get levels, then I'm not farming.

As long as the action is basically repetitive and driven by the mechanical rewards, yes, it's farming. Same emotional experience, same effects on my future gameplay, and so on.
It's an intentional broadening of a definition to make everything seem like a frequently frowned upon activity. Pure justification.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDead View Post
It's an intentional broadening of a definition to make everything seem like a frequently frowned upon activity. Pure justification.
How exactly am I "broadening" the definition? What is the exact definition as it existed prior to this alleged "broadening"?

I've heard people refer to themselves as "farming" materials, or particular enemy groups (for a badge), or whatever else, in this game and others, for years. You're telling me all of these people were part of some sinister plot to make a particular activity seem better, when most of them were in games that didn't even have AE?

I am skeptical.

If there's a distinction, please identify the distinction, and explain why it should matter. Why should I object more to someone killing lots of fire mobs in AE than to someone killing lots of behemoths in some regular mission? Why should I object more to someone killing lots of S/L mobs in AE than to someone farming them in PI radio missions?

In short: If you think it's "pure justification", could you explain why the justification doesn't work? Because if there's not actually a flaw in the argument, then apparently the justification has succeeded and the thing in question is justified.

I don't really care either way, myself. I have put probably 10x as much time into AE story arcs as I have into AE "farms", and I certainly have a lot more fun doing them.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by seebs View Post
How exactly am I "broadening" the definition? What is the exact definition as it existed prior to this alleged "broadening"?

I've heard people refer to themselves as "farming" materials, or particular enemy groups (for a badge), or whatever else, in this game and others, for years. You're telling me all of these people were part of some sinister plot to make a particular activity seem better, when most of them were in games that didn't even have AE?

I am skeptical.

If there's a distinction, please identify the distinction, and explain why it should matter. Why should I object more to someone killing lots of fire mobs in AE than to someone killing lots of behemoths in some regular mission? Why should I object more to someone killing lots of S/L mobs in AE than to someone farming them in PI radio missions?

In short: If you think it's "pure justification", could you explain why the justification doesn't work? Because if there's not actually a flaw in the argument, then apparently the justification has succeeded and the thing in question is justified.

I don't really care either way, myself. I have put probably 10x as much time into AE story arcs as I have into AE "farms", and I certainly have a lot more fun doing them.
Honestly it wasn't a personal attack and I wondered if it'd be taken that way.
I suppose my definition of farming would be large amounts of purely repetitive activity at the expense of everything else in the most expedient and streamlined way possible. edit: I forgot intent. Intent to grind nonstop the most efficient way possible.

The justification doesn't work because it makes waking up in the morning and going to work farming. It makes EVERYTHING you do that's repetitive for any benefit farming.

I don't agree that radio missions are farming. They're time consuming and semi random. Completely inefficient.


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Posted

I am sure on certain forums we can freely talk about farming.

On this particular forum, it seems like a bad idea because you can get trolled and flamed or whatever for advertising farms and possibly even asking how to make a farm mission. This is not a great forum for keeping up with the latest farm trends anyways, because the Devs and GMs read these things.

But since we gotta get our opinions in.

I'd like to make an AE farm for political reasons within my supergroup network. So I can run them through later and look good for them because I am in a power playing supergroup that loves to speed things for XP and Inf bonuses and other rewards with the exception of AE. Where they love to farm it and make 9,999 AE tickets as qucikly as possible. But they are good people so I stick with them and don't want another supergroup.

I personally don't have a problem with farming and repeatable missions. It's why I do RPG's. Been doing it with every RPG i have played since 1991 starting with a game called Gateway to the Savage Frontier. If I can't farm and grind on the RPG I am playing. I stop playing in most cases.

That being said, I also see why AE was created. They want the players to show off thier creativity. I love that aspect very much. Which is why I want to make real story arcs as well. I wish all MMORPG's would do this including Blizzards World of Rude Trolling Griefplayers, Lord of the Rings Online, and Rift.
To me, it's a replacement for the Pen and Paper style RPG's because I can make my own missions and stories and just post them and when people wanna play them, they can. If I want to play them, I just do it. The game takes care of being the Dungeon Master so I don't need to keep track of as much stuff.

Even though people don't wanna play most of my AE missions and stories because they are stupid, not very rewarding, and there is generally WAY better things to do. I find it's way easier to get people to play. I one time made a pen and paper RPG of my own from scratch based on Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's Butlerian Jihad Dune Novels and had to give up because I couldn't find people to play it. But I post an AE story arc and even though I don't advertise here, people still find my missions and play them. So I don't feel it's waste of time to make my own stories.

Anyways, please forgive my ramblings.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grae Knight View Post
Are we being Xana-trolled??
Probably. I'm actually going to humbly bow out of this right now since it's already devolving into 'I tink farming is teh goods' and 'I hatez teh farmzorz porebers'


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDead View Post
Probably. I'm actually going to humbly bow out of this right now since it's already devolving into 'I tink farming is teh goods' and 'I hatez teh farmzorz porebers'
Overall, the thread seems pretty civilized. I enjoy discussions like this. It's always interesting to see how different people perceive the same thing.

One thing is certain though - everyone enjoys the game in a different way whether it's slight differences or drastic differences.

Mmmm I wish we had an "overalls" costume piece. I would so make a "farmer" costume.

And on that note... can we get a Pitch Fork as a customizable weapon for Staff Melee please?


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolarSentai View Post
Overall, the thread seems pretty civilized. I enjoy discussions like this. It's always interesting to see how different people perceive the same thing.

One thing is certain though - everyone enjoys the game in a different way whether it's slight differences or drastic differences.

Mmmm I wish we had an "overalls" costume piece. I would so make a "farmer" costume.

And on that note... can we get a Pitch Fork as a customizable weapon for Staff Melee please?
I ABSOLUTELY second this overalls thing! How else am I supposed to make all my creepy doll characters!?


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