Retreading "feminism"

Yes, I'm aware most of us are tired of the subject and the flame wars that tend to erupt around it, and I'm probably not qualified to talk about it, but the issue keeps being raised I feel for a reason, both in issues new and old, and I don't think we've ever actually addressed it generally outside of the context of any specific costume set or change. The practical reason I decided to post this now instead of, you know, playing the damn game like I should be in my time off, is this:

Movie Bob's "The Big Picture" video on "Gender Games," as he puts it.

Now, I'm not here to review the video itself, but there is one very specific point I want to draw from it: Poses. I consider myself an observant guy, yet for all the reasons the representation of females in modern fiction has bothered me, I've never been able to put my finger on it so specifically as "poses," and more generally the way body language characters use to communicate their personalities.

Now, to many it may seem absurd that people like me would cry foul of over something as simple as women having smaller weapons or getting "barbarian" stilettos or being stuck with a running animation which emphasises butt wiggle over everything else, or having a "muscle" slider that seems to concentrate on making their breasts and buts bigger, those being famous areas of muscle mass and... Where was I going with this? Right! To some, making a big deal of any of these, or even ALL of these, may seem absurd and uncalled for, but I think there's a reason this keeps happening, and I don't think we can really blame the game or the developers for this all the way. Consider that between the costumes women get, the costumes women tend to wear AND the demeanour their animations are given... Something ain't right.

But much as I want to dev-bash as I have been for a while now, I don't think I can, not without a lot of caveats. No, what strikes me every time a subject like this comes up is that actual unaffiliated players raise their voices to talk about femininity and how females SHOULD be represented as such. I don't necessarily disagree with this, but as Movie Bob says, men often get to represent a great many thing just in the way they look and act, not always even remotely related to masculinity, yet women still seem to somehow get saddled with exuding femininity before they exude anything else.

Again, I'm not laying the blame on the developers in general or the art team in particular. Hell, the latest set we got - CoT - is completely homogeneous between genders. For all the other things I hate about it, at the very least it's completely fair and equal, and that counts for a lot in my eyes. However, from my eyes the bigger problem of perception still remains because for YEARS now the bulk of my cosmetic suggestions have been for women and have aimed to make them appear more "butch" as someone said a while back. Now, I "get" the technical side of the problem with these suggestions, but what I honestly don't get is the... I don't want to say "moral" but let's say that I don't get the "philosophical" disagreement with the very idea. And it IS quite a serious disagreement, I should say, because I've been called a "pervert" over it, though that's a story for another time.

My point? Beyond just an idle examination of a topic I find interesting and an excuse to post an intelligent video, Titanic Weapons are coming. We don't know when, but they are. We've been promised that those would be giant for ALL genders, and that will invariably raise the question once more, possibly more so than ever before. Another poster joked about adding "Titanic Arms" to go with Titanic Weapons at my constant suggestion for Robotic Arms getting muscular human arm options, but that's kind of the point - all of these suggestions seem to be interpreted as jokes, or at best as niche appeal. Women appearing masculine, both in costume and mannerism (anyone remember the hatred for the "with weapon" run style for women?) is seen as something weird, unpopular and unnecessary for the most part, and this befuddles me. Men are allowed to cover the full spectrum of characters, right down to practically feminine, yet women representing anything other than femininity is... Niche?

I really don't mean to start a fight here, and I'd really appreciate if we could approach this with civility, but I also feel that this needs to be examined in a more abstract context than JUST the Barbarian set or JUST body sliders or what have you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I think this may be a politically touchy topic.

I would say they are represented as petite because that is how they are mostly represented in comics. The game only followed the comic book example. There are female characters in comics who are not petite, but they are the exception, and not the norm. The game does allow for that representation for female characters.

That is one of the great things about this game, the costume creator allows for almost any representation of any character.

Now, as long as you have guys making female characters, you are going to see more skimpy costumes. I personally do not play female characters, but I do know guys who only play female characters because they find them more pleasing to the eye.

I have a wife, and three daughters. I have enough women in my life without adding another in an MMO.

I also have a 14yo son, and there have been times in this game where I almost felt the need to cover his eyes. I am betting in most cases costumes like that are designed by male players. I however assume everyone on the internet is male, not matter what they say.

For the first time in this debate, I have heard an argument worth considering. To make this simpler, I wouldn't mind seeing a collection, or completed works, of what poses make the point.
A demonstration in the way of a comic or two would be something we should all be willing to read and consider with civility.
As My best stick figure drawing all seem to have the same pose (standing with some form of broken legs), I would welcome suggestions of comics and/or characters that make the point.

edit: After reading a little more, I must disagree with only one point. I'm not sure that demonstrative drawings would muddy the issue. As I am accepting the premise that the pose is producing the undesirable affect. To counter this, a collection of poses that indicate the intent of the character towards the current situation is the very context that should be established. The logos of incorporating the character into the story could be the impetus to softening the debate.


Thanks for bringing a well thought discussion amidst this sea of strangeness.

The test itself isn't a big deal. It was just what one woman used to decide whether she would watch a film or not. A film that passes it isn't necessarily good or anything. The point of it was that so few films actually passed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zyphoid Now, as long as you have guys making female characters, you are going to see more skimpy costumes.

But you shouldn't. You shouldn't see men making more skimpy outfits for women than women would. That you do see this, though, is evidence of a culture that has sexual attractiveness in the eyes of straight men as an integral part of being "a woman".