Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
![]() "Go and get insps!" is not a valid crutch for poor mob design.
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Resistance in Maria Jenkins missions are Broken
As I recall, in this particular mission, it doesn't really help that the Resistance stealth is actually ridiculously buff. Base Empowerment buffs don't help, and IIRC, it takes two small yellows to make them visible (1 medium yellow will work, but those aren't as easy to just run to the contact and purchase). The mission itself is fairly long...running in and out multiple times because you have five minutes of inspirations and twenty minutes of mission really isn't acceptable either.
But honestly, at baseline, I'd say that if you're playing smart at +0/x1 and chugging inspirations that fast, there's still a balance issue. There's no other group out there that's going to make you do that. And really, "get inspirations" isn't a challenge, any more than "get a Mastermind" for Barracuda.
I like seeing challenges in this game, but it's better to define a challenge as something that makes you play smarter, first and foremost, rather than just running back and forth to stack the deck. Put another way against the Inspiration argument, let's take Hamidon. Your group is going to need EoE Inspirations, more than likely, if they want to do a successful Hami-raid. But I guarantee you that having fifty players each with a full 20 EoEs is not going to win the raid for you. Heck, having fifty players who somehow have 200 EoEs each still isn't going to magically fix everything. That's because Hami requires strategy (it may have become rote on some servers, but it's still strategy). Hence, Hami works well as a "challenge". These Resistance don't require anything except to make you slog to and from your contact repeatedly.
I wouldn't call the Resistance "challenging." They don't hit any harder, they don't die any harder. What I would call them is "annoying," because you're only actually fighting them half the time. If you're on a character who's at least reasonably survivable - and I usually am - then their actual threat isn't all that imposing. They're just irritating. I've fought them with a variety of my own characters and never found the mission impossible or even all that difficult. It just takes longer and frays my nerves considerably more. And then people bark at me for being grumpy and complaining too much.
The resistance are on the same level of "annoying" as that Mastermind bug which causes enemies to scatter to the four winds whenever you lay down a Poison Gas Trap - it doesn't make things so much harder as it just pisses me off.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I was snippy. More than warranted, objectively.
This is why I was snippy: my threshold for what constitutes "broken" is very, very high. Much higher than, say, "not very good". I am tired of seeing things called "broken" when they are merely not very good. "Broken" is a term I prefer to see reserved for "there is literally no way at all to do this, no matter how ludicrous", which is a very high standard indeed.
I agree with the poster upthread who mentioned mez as something that is not very good. Sadly, most of the things that can be done with perception and stealth also fall into this category, because like mez, perception and stealth are implemented in a very simple binary fashion. This, along with the stacking math for buffs and debuffs and the tremendous miscalculation of the advantage of AoE damage, is the root cause of many things that are not very good (although sometimes amusing).
On the other hand, I do not call it "broken" when the developers choose to strip away one or another of the many advantages we have over NPCs in an attempt to make an encounter more interesting, unless doing so actually renders the encounter completely impossible when it is intended to be possible.
It might not be very good, though.
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Funny thing about perception, and slight anecdote:
A while back I was running my Spines/Regen Scrapper from way back when. I fought a Spectral, he went invisible and I lost him. Only I could still see the orange numbers that floated from him as my Quills aura kept hurting him. I followed the orange numbers, stood next to them and did a Spine Burst. Next to me, a Spectral appeared in its dying animation, and then instantly disappeared again. I'm not sure if I cheated the system, but I felt very accomplished thereafter
If I could blind-fire more of my attacks, I could fight invisible things a lot more easily, because a lot of the time they may be invisible, but there are ways to tell where they are and, failing that, a lot of ways to outright GUESS. That might make perception a bit less binary.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I was snippy. More than warranted, objectively.
This is why I was snippy: my threshold for what constitutes "broken" is very, very high. Much higher than, say, "not very good". I am tired of seeing things called "broken" when they are merely not very good. "Broken" is a term I prefer to see reserved for "there is literally no way at all to do this, no matter how ludicrous", which is a very high standard indeed. I agree with the poster upthread who mentioned mez as something that is not very good. Sadly, most of the things that can be done with perception and stealth also fall into this category, because like mez, perception and stealth are implemented in a very simple binary fashion. This, along with the stacking math for buffs and debuffs and the tremendous miscalculation of the advantage of AoE damage, is the root cause of many things that are not very good (although sometimes amusing). On the other hand, I do not call it "broken" when the developers choose to strip away one or another of the many advantages we have over NPCs in an attempt to make an encounter more interesting, unless doing so actually renders the encounter completely impossible when it is intended to be possible. It might not be very good, though. |
But, then again, surely a mission that causes the player to go "This isn't impossible, but to hell if I'm putting up with this for a whole mission!' and simply leave it, abandon the mission from the list and go do something else entirely (bearing in mind said player usually has a high patience threshold
![Stick Out Tongue](images/smilies/tongue.gif)
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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I wouldn't call the Resistance "challenging." They don't hit any harder, they don't die any harder. What I would call them is "annoying," because you're only actually fighting them half the time. If you're on a character who's at least reasonably survivable - and I usually am - then their actual threat isn't all that imposing. They're just irritating. I've fought them with a variety of my own characters and never found the mission impossible or even all that difficult. It just takes longer and frays my nerves considerably more. And then people bark at me for being grumpy and complaining too much.
The resistance are on the same level of "annoying" as that Mastermind bug which causes enemies to scatter to the four winds whenever you lay down a Poison Gas Trap - it doesn't make things so much harder as it just pisses me off. |
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Mobs really shouldn't have abilties much more powerful than the players version, unless they are encoutnered one on many, an IncTrial boss, or AV for example.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Mobs really shouldn't have abilties much more powerful than the players version, unless they are encoutnered one on many, an IncTrial boss, or AV for example.
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Mostly because they're dumber than bricks and need to "cheat" to present any sort of challenge at all. That said, the issue is more with the stacking of overpowered abilities and/or abilities that effectively hamstring many ATs and builds on base difficulty. Those types of mobs are much rarer and more annoying.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
And yet they routinely do from the early levels on.
Mostly because they're dumber than bricks and need to "cheat" to present any sort of challenge at all. That said, the issue is more with the stacking of overpowered abilities and/or abilities that effectively hamstring many ATs and builds on base difficulty. Those types of mobs are much rarer and more annoying. |
Actually the reason why some mobs have better versions of player powers, is they have the legacy version that players used to have but player powers get nerfed, mob powers don't.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
A rather common example of this, somewhat ironically given the powers of the critters under discussion, is Cloaking Device. Check out some time using a Power Analyzer the amount of defense critters like Knives of Artemis get from theirs. I am pretty sure this is the original (pre-GDN) version's power scale, and the reason it's a lot better than anything a pre GDN Blaster ever got is that critters have much better AT mods for self +defense buffs.
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Moment of glory is a real annoying one as well.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I have a different take on this.
Don't fight them. Run past them, sleep them, confuse them if you have to. If you don't have these powers then do whatever you need to stay alive and fight as few as possible. But just because they are there does not mean you have to kill them.
One of the things I kind of LIKE about these enemies is they are one of the few who are not basically XP vessels. Annoying, yes, but not so much if you treat them like an obstacle to get around.
Actually the reason why some mobs have better versions of player powers, is they have the legacy version that players used to have but player powers get nerfed, mob powers don't.
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*meh* i'd do something silly like trying to invoke Arcanaville to elaborate with actual stats and numbers, but this is far too silly to bother with.
The Resistance are annoying because of the powers they have been given and the way those powers work. It's really irrelevant on a number of levels how much those powers duplicate or diverge from player powers since some, like stealth, use different mechanics when used against players than they do when used against NPCs.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I have a different take on this.
Don't fight them. Run past them, sleep them, confuse them if you have to. If you don't have these powers then do whatever you need to stay alive and fight as few as possible. But just because they are there does not mean you have to kill them. One of the things I kind of LIKE about these enemies is they are one of the few who are not basically XP vessels. Annoying, yes, but not so much if you treat them like an obstacle to get around. |
In a game where the only way you advance is to whack the pinatas until they spill their goodies? Telling me, "Oh, you don't have to fight the villains" in a game that is all about fighting the villains is the same as telling me, "Oh, you don't have to play the game". It is technically correct in that we don't have to but not doing so runs counter to the reason for the games' very existence.
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I disagree. IMO it is not necessarily a bad thing if sometimes the enemy is not an XP capsule. Just because there isn't a timer ticking down in a super-obvious "no really, keep moving" sort of way doesn't mean the enemy is broken. I would sort of like to at least preserve a few enemy groups who aren't just there to be steamrolled.
Add these to other 'broken' NPCs:
Spectrals with their -ToHit
Rularuu and Cimerorans with their -Def
Illusionists with their phasing
Vanguard Magi with their -End and -Res
Succubi with their Confuse
EB rezzers/ambushers
Final Bosses with some unresistable damage, especially in patch form (move or lose)
So, um, yeah... business as usual. And I love it.
Nice to see the uber Defense ATs sweat once in a while, especially when squishies have the tools to circumvent the foes' gimmick.
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Add these to other 'broken' NPCs:
Spectrals with their -ToHit Rularuu and Cimerorans with their -Def Illusionists with their phasing Vanguard Magi with their -End and -Res Succubi with their Confuse EB rezzers/ambushers Final Bosses with some unresistable damage, especially in patch form (move or lose) So, um, yeah... business as usual. And I love it. Nice to see the uber Defense ATs sweat once in a while, especially when squishies have the tools to circumvent the foes' gimmick. |
Rularuu are barely fought these days, and Cim's seem nicely balanced. They have tons of def and -def but they still take a Bone Crusher to the face the same as anyone.
Illusionists are easily predictable. Ignore them when they phase, Energy Transfer to the skull when they pop back. Again, one mob out of the whole Carnie pool.
Again, one specific mob that you can lock down and wail on until it's a mushy puddle.
Again, one mob, a BOSS mob no less. Of course they should have the tricksy stuff.
EBs, AVs. I expect these things to have nasty tricks, because that's the whole point of them. Although totally resistance to any damage type is just cheap, and the Devs seem to agree given the last change to various tier 9 powers that were making it impossible for S/L ATs to do jack to them.
Having an entire enemy group at a certain level range that can infi-stealth and confuse any melee AT is not a challenge. It's not fun, it's not even hard. Their tricks didn't 'circumvent' anything; they were still pinging off my Tank like thrown pin-tacks. Or possibly cheese.
It was just frustrating and annoying. THe only 'sweat' was on the level of "No, **** you, I cannot be bothered to deal with an entire mission of this. Good day /Abandon."
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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What enemies get, more often than not, is a mix of powers we can't have, like a combination of Invulnerability, Fire Blast and Fiery Melee on regular Behemoths, for instance. This I kind of get, since critters can be balanced individually by accounting for the precise powers they get and the precise potency of said powers, whereas what player characters will have is inherently unpredictable and dependent on what players take and how players slot.
Don't fight them. Run past them, sleep them, confuse them if you have to. If you don't have these powers then do whatever you need to stay alive and fight as few as possible. But just because they are there does not mean you have to kill them.
One of the things I kind of LIKE about these enemies is they are one of the few who are not basically XP vessels. Annoying, yes, but not so much if you treat them like an obstacle to get around. |
Sure, Praetoria has a bunch of those "Get in, get out in 120 seconds, don't fight anything!" missions but at least on them I can fail them intentionally and fight stuff anyway, and at worst they're short and not annoying. City of Heroes is a game about fighting stuff. Designing missions where you have to expressly NOT fight stuff (**** you, "Strange Case of Benjamin Decker!") is just baaad!
Yes and no. For one thing some of those powers are not, and never have been, available to players. Also, NPCs do not necessarily have the same base stats as players, so powers with the exact same or weaker numbers than a player power can be more effective for an NPC. (Also, NPC powers are not slotted, so claiming it's because their powers weren't nerfed is just silly, especially for the player powers that have actually been buffed over the years.) Consider Bobcat being able to basically two-shot a full-strength Primal Hamidon; that is not because she has an unnerfed version of Vengeance or Claws.
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Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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