Resistance in Maria Jenkins missions are Broken


Antigonus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
"Go and get insps!" is not a valid crutch for poor mob design.
+1


 

Posted

As I recall, in this particular mission, it doesn't really help that the Resistance stealth is actually ridiculously buff. Base Empowerment buffs don't help, and IIRC, it takes two small yellows to make them visible (1 medium yellow will work, but those aren't as easy to just run to the contact and purchase). The mission itself is fairly long...running in and out multiple times because you have five minutes of inspirations and twenty minutes of mission really isn't acceptable either.

But honestly, at baseline, I'd say that if you're playing smart at +0/x1 and chugging inspirations that fast, there's still a balance issue. There's no other group out there that's going to make you do that. And really, "get inspirations" isn't a challenge, any more than "get a Mastermind" for Barracuda.

I like seeing challenges in this game, but it's better to define a challenge as something that makes you play smarter, first and foremost, rather than just running back and forth to stack the deck. Put another way against the Inspiration argument, let's take Hamidon. Your group is going to need EoE Inspirations, more than likely, if they want to do a successful Hami-raid. But I guarantee you that having fifty players each with a full 20 EoEs is not going to win the raid for you. Heck, having fifty players who somehow have 200 EoEs each still isn't going to magically fix everything. That's because Hami requires strategy (it may have become rote on some servers, but it's still strategy). Hence, Hami works well as a "challenge". These Resistance don't require anything except to make you slog to and from your contact repeatedly.


 

Posted

I wouldn't call the Resistance "challenging." They don't hit any harder, they don't die any harder. What I would call them is "annoying," because you're only actually fighting them half the time. If you're on a character who's at least reasonably survivable - and I usually am - then their actual threat isn't all that imposing. They're just irritating. I've fought them with a variety of my own characters and never found the mission impossible or even all that difficult. It just takes longer and frays my nerves considerably more. And then people bark at me for being grumpy and complaining too much.

The resistance are on the same level of "annoying" as that Mastermind bug which causes enemies to scatter to the four winds whenever you lay down a Poison Gas Trap - it doesn't make things so much harder as it just pisses me off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I was snippy. More than warranted, objectively.

This is why I was snippy: my threshold for what constitutes "broken" is very, very high. Much higher than, say, "not very good". I am tired of seeing things called "broken" when they are merely not very good. "Broken" is a term I prefer to see reserved for "there is literally no way at all to do this, no matter how ludicrous", which is a very high standard indeed.

I agree with the poster upthread who mentioned mez as something that is not very good. Sadly, most of the things that can be done with perception and stealth also fall into this category, because like mez, perception and stealth are implemented in a very simple binary fashion. This, along with the stacking math for buffs and debuffs and the tremendous miscalculation of the advantage of AoE damage, is the root cause of many things that are not very good (although sometimes amusing).

On the other hand, I do not call it "broken" when the developers choose to strip away one or another of the many advantages we have over NPCs in an attempt to make an encounter more interesting, unless doing so actually renders the encounter completely impossible when it is intended to be possible.

It might not be very good, though.


@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs

 

Posted

Funny thing about perception, and slight anecdote:

A while back I was running my Spines/Regen Scrapper from way back when. I fought a Spectral, he went invisible and I lost him. Only I could still see the orange numbers that floated from him as my Quills aura kept hurting him. I followed the orange numbers, stood next to them and did a Spine Burst. Next to me, a Spectral appeared in its dying animation, and then instantly disappeared again. I'm not sure if I cheated the system, but I felt very accomplished thereafter

If I could blind-fire more of my attacks, I could fight invisible things a lot more easily, because a lot of the time they may be invisible, but there are ways to tell where they are and, failing that, a lot of ways to outright GUESS. That might make perception a bit less binary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
I was snippy. More than warranted, objectively.

This is why I was snippy: my threshold for what constitutes "broken" is very, very high. Much higher than, say, "not very good". I am tired of seeing things called "broken" when they are merely not very good. "Broken" is a term I prefer to see reserved for "there is literally no way at all to do this, no matter how ludicrous", which is a very high standard indeed.

I agree with the poster upthread who mentioned mez as something that is not very good. Sadly, most of the things that can be done with perception and stealth also fall into this category, because like mez, perception and stealth are implemented in a very simple binary fashion. This, along with the stacking math for buffs and debuffs and the tremendous miscalculation of the advantage of AoE damage, is the root cause of many things that are not very good (although sometimes amusing).

On the other hand, I do not call it "broken" when the developers choose to strip away one or another of the many advantages we have over NPCs in an attempt to make an encounter more interesting, unless doing so actually renders the encounter completely impossible when it is intended to be possible.

It might not be very good, though.
Perhaps I was a tad too irate when posting the OP.

But, then again, surely a mission that causes the player to go "This isn't impossible, but to hell if I'm putting up with this for a whole mission!' and simply leave it, abandon the mission from the list and go do something else entirely (bearing in mind said player usually has a high patience threshold ) isn't exactly the pinnacle of design? So much so that it could bear a once over to make sure things aren't being more unreasonable than they should be.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I wouldn't call the Resistance "challenging." They don't hit any harder, they don't die any harder. What I would call them is "annoying," because you're only actually fighting them half the time. If you're on a character who's at least reasonably survivable - and I usually am - then their actual threat isn't all that imposing. They're just irritating. I've fought them with a variety of my own characters and never found the mission impossible or even all that difficult. It just takes longer and frays my nerves considerably more. And then people bark at me for being grumpy and complaining too much.

The resistance are on the same level of "annoying" as that Mastermind bug which causes enemies to scatter to the four winds whenever you lay down a Poison Gas Trap - it doesn't make things so much harder as it just pisses me off.
^ Agreed. I could have run that mission on my Invul/Enrg tank without much damage taken at all. Except damage to my patience and dealing with frustration as my targets vanished despite me using small yellows, to the point of simply using Energy Transfer on every single minion out of shear hatred for their pixelated innards.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Mobs really shouldn't have abilties much more powerful than the players version, unless they are encoutnered one on many, an IncTrial boss, or AV for example.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
Mobs really shouldn't have abilties much more powerful than the players version, unless they are encoutnered one on many, an IncTrial boss, or AV for example.
And yet they routinely do from the early levels on.
Mostly because they're dumber than bricks and need to "cheat" to present any sort of challenge at all. That said, the issue is more with the stacking of overpowered abilities and/or abilities that effectively hamstring many ATs and builds on base difficulty. Those types of mobs are much rarer and more annoying.


Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
And yet they routinely do from the early levels on.
Mostly because they're dumber than bricks and need to "cheat" to present any sort of challenge at all. That said, the issue is more with the stacking of overpowered abilities and/or abilities that effectively hamstring many ATs and builds on base difficulty. Those types of mobs are much rarer and more annoying.

Actually the reason why some mobs have better versions of player powers, is they have the legacy version that players used to have but player powers get nerfed, mob powers don't.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
Actually the reason why some mobs have better versions of player powers, is they have the legacy version that players used to have but player powers get nerfed, mob powers don't.
A rather common example of this, somewhat ironically given the powers of the critters under discussion, is Cloaking Device. Check out some time using a Power Analyzer the amount of defense critters like Knives of Artemis get from theirs. I am pretty sure this is the original (pre-GDN) version's power scale, and the reason it's a lot better than anything a pre GDN Blaster ever got is that critters have much better AT mods for self +defense buffs.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by UberGuy View Post
A rather common example of this, somewhat ironically given the powers of the critters under discussion, is Cloaking Device. Check out some time using a Power Analyzer the amount of defense critters like Knives of Artemis get from theirs. I am pretty sure this is the original (pre-GDN) version's power scale, and the reason it's a lot better than anything a pre GDN Blaster ever got is that critters have much better AT mods for self +defense buffs.

Moment of glory is a real annoying one as well.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

I have a different take on this.

Don't fight them. Run past them, sleep them, confuse them if you have to. If you don't have these powers then do whatever you need to stay alive and fight as few as possible. But just because they are there does not mean you have to kill them.

One of the things I kind of LIKE about these enemies is they are one of the few who are not basically XP vessels. Annoying, yes, but not so much if you treat them like an obstacle to get around.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
Actually the reason why some mobs have better versions of player powers, is they have the legacy version that players used to have but player powers get nerfed, mob powers don't.
Yes and no. For one thing some of those powers are not, and never have been, available to players. Also, NPCs do not necessarily have the same base stats as players, so powers with the exact same or weaker numbers than a player power can be more effective for an NPC. (Also, NPC powers are not slotted, so claiming it's because their powers weren't nerfed is just silly, especially for the player powers that have actually been buffed over the years.) Consider Bobcat being able to basically two-shot a full-strength Primal Hamidon; that is not because she has an unnerfed version of Vengeance or Claws.

*meh* i'd do something silly like trying to invoke Arcanaville to elaborate with actual stats and numbers, but this is far too silly to bother with.

The Resistance are annoying because of the powers they have been given and the way those powers work. It's really irrelevant on a number of levels how much those powers duplicate or diverge from player powers since some, like stealth, use different mechanics when used against players than they do when used against NPCs.


Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
I have a different take on this.

Don't fight them. Run past them, sleep them, confuse them if you have to. If you don't have these powers then do whatever you need to stay alive and fight as few as possible. But just because they are there does not mean you have to kill them.

One of the things I kind of LIKE about these enemies is they are one of the few who are not basically XP vessels. Annoying, yes, but not so much if you treat them like an obstacle to get around.
In a game where the only way you advance is to whack the pinatas until they spill their goodies? Telling me, "Oh, you don't have to fight the villains" in a game that is all about fighting the villains is the same as telling me, "Oh, you don't have to play the game". It is technically correct in that we don't have to but not doing so runs counter to the reason for the games' very existence.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Runner View Post
In a game where the only way you advance is to whack the pinatas until they spill their goodies? Telling me, "Oh, you don't have to fight the villains" in a game that is all about fighting the villains is the same as telling me, "Oh, you don't have to play the game". It is technically correct in that we don't have to but not doing so runs counter to the reason for the games' very existence.

I disagree. IMO it is not necessarily a bad thing if sometimes the enemy is not an XP capsule. Just because there isn't a timer ticking down in a super-obvious "no really, keep moving" sort of way doesn't mean the enemy is broken. I would sort of like to at least preserve a few enemy groups who aren't just there to be steamrolled.


 

Posted

Add these to other 'broken' NPCs:

Spectrals with their -ToHit

Rularuu and Cimerorans with their -Def

Illusionists with their phasing

Vanguard Magi with their -End and -Res

Succubi with their Confuse

EB rezzers/ambushers

Final Bosses with some unresistable damage, especially in patch form (move or lose)



So, um, yeah... business as usual. And I love it.

Nice to see the uber Defense ATs sweat once in a while, especially when squishies have the tools to circumvent the foes' gimmick.


Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Add these to other 'broken' NPCs:

Spectrals with their -ToHit

Rularuu and Cimerorans with their -Def

Illusionists with their phasing

Vanguard Magi with their -End and -Res

Succubi with their Confuse

EB rezzers/ambushers

Final Bosses with some unresistable damage, especially in patch form (move or lose)



So, um, yeah... business as usual. And I love it.

Nice to see the uber Defense ATs sweat once in a while, especially when squishies have the tools to circumvent the foes' gimmick.
Spectrals are a small portion of the greater CoT mob pool

Rularuu are barely fought these days, and Cim's seem nicely balanced. They have tons of def and -def but they still take a Bone Crusher to the face the same as anyone.

Illusionists are easily predictable. Ignore them when they phase, Energy Transfer to the skull when they pop back. Again, one mob out of the whole Carnie pool.

Again, one specific mob that you can lock down and wail on until it's a mushy puddle.

Again, one mob, a BOSS mob no less. Of course they should have the tricksy stuff.

EBs, AVs. I expect these things to have nasty tricks, because that's the whole point of them. Although totally resistance to any damage type is just cheap, and the Devs seem to agree given the last change to various tier 9 powers that were making it impossible for S/L ATs to do jack to them.


Having an entire enemy group at a certain level range that can infi-stealth and confuse any melee AT is not a challenge. It's not fun, it's not even hard. Their tricks didn't 'circumvent' anything; they were still pinging off my Tank like thrown pin-tacks. Or possibly cheese.
It was just frustrating and annoying. THe only 'sweat' was on the level of "No, **** you, I cannot be bothered to deal with an entire mission of this. Good day /Abandon."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
And yet they routinely do from the early levels on.
No, they don't, especially in the early game. For the longest time, enemies were limited in their attacks to a maximum scale damage of 2.0, even for attacks that, for us, exceeded that by quite a bit, such as Total Focus' 3.56 scale damage for us, which for NPCs is still 2.0. It wasn't until Architect critters got access to OUR powers directly that we actually realised just how nasty our own powers were, when we got hit with them, ourselves.

What enemies get, more often than not, is a mix of powers we can't have, like a combination of Invulnerability, Fire Blast and Fiery Melee on regular Behemoths, for instance. This I kind of get, since critters can be balanced individually by accounting for the precise powers they get and the precise potency of said powers, whereas what player characters will have is inherently unpredictable and dependent on what players take and how players slot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
Don't fight them. Run past them, sleep them, confuse them if you have to. If you don't have these powers then do whatever you need to stay alive and fight as few as possible. But just because they are there does not mean you have to kill them.

One of the things I kind of LIKE about these enemies is they are one of the few who are not basically XP vessels. Annoying, yes, but not so much if you treat them like an obstacle to get around.
Considering enemy defeats are the primary way to gain experience and obtain drops, telling me I don't have to fight them is, as mentioned below, akin to telling me I don't have to play the game, or more precisely that I don't have to play the mission. Why, then, would I want to enter the instance at all, if I'm not going to fight anything? Why would I not just mission-drop the thing and save myself the trouble? That's already what I do for PvP zone introductions and Security Chief hunts and needless contact introductions, the last thing I need is yet another mission that's going to waste my time in annoying activities without giving me any progress for it.

Sure, Praetoria has a bunch of those "Get in, get out in 120 seconds, don't fight anything!" missions but at least on them I can fail them intentionally and fight stuff anyway, and at worst they're short and not annoying. City of Heroes is a game about fighting stuff. Designing missions where you have to expressly NOT fight stuff (**** you, "Strange Case of Benjamin Decker!") is just baaad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schismatrix View Post
Yes and no. For one thing some of those powers are not, and never have been, available to players. Also, NPCs do not necessarily have the same base stats as players, so powers with the exact same or weaker numbers than a player power can be more effective for an NPC. (Also, NPC powers are not slotted, so claiming it's because their powers weren't nerfed is just silly, especially for the player powers that have actually been buffed over the years.) Consider Bobcat being able to basically two-shot a full-strength Primal Hamidon; that is not because she has an unnerfed version of Vengeance or Claws.
That's mostly true for "special" enemies, however, and Bobcat from the Tin Mage TF is to special enemies what special enemies are to regular critters. We're not talking about Trial bosses here. We're not even talking about bosses at all. We're talking about MINIONS with powers that are so out of proportion with not just what minions should have, but what players have, as well. I really don't mind an Overseer "chomping" me for 1000+ hit points. It's a pretty nasty boss, I get that. But a Resistance Fighter minion? Those guys should be dog meat, not boss type encounters.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.