From what I've read, the linking of damage and damage resist is persistent and the devs don't know how to fix it. the fact that hammios take advantage of it is currently considered an exploit not a bug (because +dam hamios give resistance on the higher schedule a track). They claim they will fix it, but have no idea how.
the wiki has a detailed write up on the exploit.
Per Castle:
Quote:
On the soulbound proc, it goes off more often on the tier 1 because it checks / attack. But it potentially does more damage in the tier 3. I had it in my commando for mercs becuase of his AoE, and the Assault bot for bots for the same reason. But plan to put it in my tier-1 demons because the prince doesn't do nearly as much AoE so I *think* the tier-1s will get more use out of it.| Slotting enhancements into powers they were not meant to be slottable in is an 'exploit.' We've pretty much firmly established that. The question isn't if something being abused in this manner will be changed, it's a matter of when. To be on the safe side, you should never use a Debuff enhancement to Buff a power and vice versa. And, just to stave off any worries, the IO system works very differently from the HO system, and there *shouldn't* be any of these issues in that system. It'll have a whole set of issues all it's own! |
Would love to know some real numbers though.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
I'll confirm the quote from Castle that the IO system isn't giving the same problem as the HO system. I tested IOs in the tier 2 demons a while back and it's all just a visual bug for them - you actually get the enhancement types and values that you'd expect, despite what the various numbers screens might be showing you. Their resistance isn't actually buffed and their damage isn't actually limited (other than the usual ~95% ED cap).
Quote:
Early in the development of the Demon Summoning, there was talk of a 'gimmick' slotting for the tier 2: Acc, Acc/dmg from a pet set, 2 Centrioles for Dmg, Dmg resistance, and endurance reduction, and 2 Golgis for Heal and End. This slotting was put forth because the pet damage IOs do NOT reduce the endurance cost of the heals or the reistance shield. Getting some endurance reduction in the build was the main goal. For the procs, I would agree that tier one's would be the easiest place to max out accuracy and damage in Pet IO frankenslotting 5 slots, with the last slot for a proc|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
A few questions:
1) I'm noticing that the real numbers in game show the lieuts' resistance being modified when I put damage enhancers in them; I remember just after they came out that their damage was limited because of the two aspects being affected by the same enhancements, but I thought they fixed this. Is it still the case that they are linked? As in, if I slot damage enhancements it will boost their resistance, or their damage will be limited as if I were slotting with resistance enhancers? 2) What is the best way to slot the lieuts if you don't need set bonuses out of them? They seem to need so many things, and I'm trying to use them to mule the Steadfast and Gladiator uniques. I think I tried 3 Nucleos, a Golgi, and those two uniques in mids... 3) Which pet is the best to take the Soulbound proc? I'm obviously not going to have room for it in the lieuts, but between the minions and the boss? |
The pet IO and recharge intensive pet IO resistance and defense bonus fit best in Hell on Earth.
If you are interested, I mix up two slots of frankenslotting for accuracy, damage, endurance and then I put four slots of Pacing of the Turtle in the 3rd tier Demon Prince so that accuracy, damage, endurance reduction and some slows are boosted. Because most of the abilities of the Demon Prince include a slow component, the accuracy and damage in Pacing of the Turtle works well. Please note again, the endurance reduction in pet IO sets do not reduce the endurance cost of abilities of the Demon Prince that do no damage.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Quote:
Hammio's screwing with the dev's plans since day 1. Heh. Warshades are now slotting dual nucleus and dual recharge common IOs into eclipse because it gives ED-capped resist with just two slots because of this exploit.
|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
Early in the development of the Demon Summoning, there was talk of a 'gimmick' slotting for the tier 2: Acc, Acc/dmg from a pet set, 2 Centrioles for Dmg, Dmg resistance, and endurance reduction, and 2 Golgis for Heal and End. This slotting was put forth because the pet damage IOs do NOT reduce the endurance cost of the heals or the reistance shield. Getting some endurance reduction in the build was the main goal.
|
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Slotting 2 Centrioles is decried as an exploit, but there is no argument that slotting centrioles for the damage and endurance reduction for maximized damage benefit would not be desirable. The damage resistance effect is an oversight on the developer's part.
My feelings is that although there are unintended consequences, no one in leveling to 50 in 8 hours. No one is defeating the Hamidon from Max altitude with packs of freezing rain users. 
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Ya there was a post by positron long after that one by castle that said they had allowed the hami thing to become a feature (in other words not big enough for them to worry about). I'd link to it, but that post got lost to the forums eons ago.
Psy, how much end redux would you say I need? I'm not concerned with the slow because my secondary is time. (Was trying to match softcap from time with resistance of demons for uber survival, but their damage is so far disappointing compared to bots and thugs so I'm not sure i can stick with it.)
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
Doesn't this not work on pet powers. I thought the HO would need to be theoretically slotable in power the pet is using. I mean, you can slot a damage/whatever HO in a pet, but since the pet resist power doesn't take the damage or any other element of the hami, it doesn't have an effect.
I can, though, imagine the opposite happening - the resist/end HO affecting damage, because the damage power will take the end portion of the HO, so it winds up with the whole thing.
Personally, I just stuck in 3 acc/dam HOs, 2 common IO resists and 1 common end red. Screw the heal. But if you really want to boost heal, you could try a heal/end HO, but I don't think 33% end red would be enough.
Might even boost the common resist to reach ED, but it's probably not worth it.
Quote:
Hmm, is there or is there not endurance reduction in Centrioles? Centrioles definitely cover the damage and resistance. Golgis cover endurance costs of heal. |
Originally Posted by rsclark
Doesn't this not work on pet powers. I thought the HO would need to be theoretically slotable in power the pet is using. I mean, you can slot a damage/whatever HO in a pet, but since the pet resist power doesn't take the damage or any other element of the hami, it doesn't have an effect.
I can, though, imagine the opposite happening - the resist/end HO affecting damage, because the damage power will take the end portion of the HO, so it winds up with the whole thing. Personally, I just stuck in 3 acc/dam HOs, 2 common IO resists and 1 common end red. Screw the heal. But if you really want to boost heal, you could try a heal/end HO, but I don't think 33% end red would be enough. Might even boost the common resist to reach ED, but it's probably not worth it. |
Screw the heal indeed, but you haven't slotted enough to reduce the endurance cost for heals and _other_ non-attack abilities. Not early, but soon after the level 32 abysmal empowerment your tier 2 demons will be sucking wind, with the demon prince shortly behind without attention to the slow abilities.
@microcosm, Demon Prince does use less endurance for slow than tier twos use for non-damage abilities. He should get by with a single IOs worth of endurance reduction 40+%
I am interested in Demons/time works out. My Bots/time at level 26 is underperforming my Demons/Sonic at level 25. They are not purple powered juggernauts at this point, but it's an interesting comparison.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
I should add also that my level 50 demon summoning MM is Demons/thermal. I use forge, and living hellfire to boost tohit and damage, along with assault and tactics. Most masterminds I try to fit in tactics just for the extra confusion resistance.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Quote:
I got the prince now and have seen a solid rise in damage and survival because of him. If the second empowerment is good too, I think this combo will turn out really well.
|
I am interested in Demons/time works out. My Bots/time at level 26 is underperforming my Demons/Sonic at level 25. They are not purple powered juggernauts at this point, but it's an interesting comparison. |
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
So this is what I'm thinking:
Code:
Softcap pets and self, isoftcap to s/l/e for self, or can stack pb'ed farsight for isoftcap on all. Am I going to run into problems anywhere or will this work? (Not too fond of distortion field so far).
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1471;696;1392;HEX;| |78DA6594494F535114C7EFEB6BA994A9054B99A1055A3A3D5BC02146C5301811AA3| |59068DC90DA3EE06AA75030B2F30BB8D185F3B075E5CEA03BD77E00D13844772E44| |13745DCF3BE7405F7C2F697FF7FEEFB9E7FCCFED7D4DDD9C6E14E2D68450DC53F94| |CA5B294CA54D6F5B5822CE61CA9CC8ACC0AA710C25F539716360A8552519BD6E19B| |27B2B8628E98DC585ED616654187644559DEC867D665A9283CE95229AF9925172A0| |B655DCFB5E0705ECFE4F4B5CAAA2C53F06CF186ACC8AB322FD7377B66CA32AB99CA| |A432599DED6E7680C9387C1EB8053F55BB3801B0AB62708FBBC0A418FA8B084FD90| |CBCF7EE6F10E2856248DB20299C439943C9368FA84B210E9C275C407C807015E3AB| |AAFA1A93DA5F11DE20EAB6108FC09A832B39FCE8E131484EAEE41CC528D718611CD| |178987004F1112AD573783D156F4E13C8989B8CB9C9ED13C8DE40E18E063E83BE3D| |4E62C68153341D185571EA838DBDA20B3C35F1C6A6550C0C4A44E81AE13A218F081| |71001D8D542E7205AA2D8DF5370E0E1449E6F362377EB2E06B79E461C9C207CC7B5| |F63F38FB046DB6719B6DD3284566086708B388D8598407EA7AA9AEE2F562E7ED47A| |9ADFB50DFC7997C318CEE88133444579290403C83F04E0EEFE483F29FFC8F3F8021| |31F8120B7D06ABDDBCA39B6AF71CA7C03DF6B197213A9266A7D129B9EDA51D49BA0| |CCFA17A3FDF8F7E92BE40FA00496AE0ADCD38164E1364BC43E35F216E988EC031DC| |8F3F656C1173C7E846C46F635CFC2EE11859DA82C8113EB911F21266B73BF0A7106| |5335132F310FC69DCAB16C444874284114214918C209AA0D104274F70A39CBCC76E| |7AE7AAF0888845495894A44519B328E31665DEA2A46A4A356DDF7FD58582ABF5D0A| |5CAAB3F5DB0AA98577F9995738A7113762C41BF6B8AA2DCC3C3B0DD41CCC1B54ED2| |4AF5A2CB58A7F125D3F8B2697CC534DE36EDAD3DFF004E7504AD| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
Here is my run at a Demon/Time...has soft cap to melee...dont use purples or PvP recipes cause I never stay on a toon long enough to collect those sets.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.95
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
MykStopsTime: Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Demon Summoning
Secondary Power Set: Time Manipulation
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Summon Demonlings -- BldM'dt-Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(3), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(3), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(9), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(9), EdctM'r-PetDef(11)
Level 1: Time Crawl -- ImpSwft-Acc/Slow(A), ImpSwft-Dmg/Slow(46), ImpSwft-Acc/EndRdx(46), ImpSwft-Rng/Slow(46), ImpSwft-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(48), ImpSwft-Dam%(48)
Level 2: Temporal Mending -- Dct'dW-Heal(A), Dct'dW-Rchg(11), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(13), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(13), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 4: Time's Juncture -- ImpSwft-Acc/Slow(A), ImpSwft-Dmg/Slow(23), ImpSwft-Acc/EndRdx(48), ImpSwft-Rng/Slow(50), ImpSwft-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(50), ImpSwft-Dam%(50)
Level 6: Enchant Demon -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Lash -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(43), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(43), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), T'Death-Dam%(45)
Level 10: Temporal Selection -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 12: Summon Demons -- HO:Ribo(A), HO:Ribo(17), HO:Nucle(19), HO:Nucle(19), HO:Perox(21)
Level 14: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def(15), LkGmblr-Rchg+(15)
Level 16: Distortion Field -- ImpSwft-Acc/Slow(A), ImpSwft-Dmg/Slow(21), ImpSwft-Acc/EndRdx(25), ImpSwft-Rng/Slow(25), ImpSwft-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(33), ImpSwft-Dam%(34)
Level 18: Hell on Earth -- C'Arms-+Def(Pets)(A), C'Arms-Acc/Rchg(40), C'Arms-Dmg/EndRdx(42), C'Arms-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 20: Time Stop -- BasGaze-Acc/Hold(A), BasGaze-Acc/Rchg(34), BasGaze-Rchg/Hold(37), BasGaze-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(39)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 24: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 26: Summon Demon Prince -- P'ngTtl-Dmg/Slow(A), P'ngTtl-Acc/Slow(27), P'ngTtl-Acc/EndRdx(27), P'ngTtl-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(31), HO:Perox(33), HO:Perox(33)
Level 28: Farsight -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(29), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(29), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(31)
Level 30: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResKB(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(31)
Level 32: Abyssal Empowerment -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Slowed Response -- ShldBrk-DefDeb(A), ShldBrk-Acc/DefDeb(36), ShldBrk-Acc/Rchg(36), ShldBrk-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(36), ShldBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(37), ShldBrk-%Dam(37)
Level 38: Chrono Shift -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-Heal(39), Dct'dW-Rchg(39), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(40), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def(42), LkGmblr-Rchg+(42)
Level 44: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 47: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 49: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(7)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(A), P'Shift-EndMod(5), P'Shift-End%(5), EndMod-I(7)
Quote:
I've actually just recently started using Demons since trying Thugs as my first MM back in 2006, then Zombies and quickly settling on Robots ever since.|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
I am interested in Demons/time works out. My Bots/time at level 26 is underperforming my Demons/Sonic at level 25. They are not purple powered juggernauts at this point, but it's an interesting comparison.
|
Demons are clearly more powerful than Robots and more survivable.
As for the secondary, I have found Demons/Time to be very good, rather survivable even in the Praetorian content that eats most characters. My Demons/Time is only level 19, but it should be, and is a bit, showing some of the power Masterminds get.
BUT, Time Manipulation, as I gain more of the powers, is definitely lacking compared to my favorite set, Force Field. I am guessing the same is true for Time compared to Sonic due to more constant higher protection and mez protection, just like Force Field.
Time Manipulation is good, but it is a bit too busy and certainly not as consistently strong as Force Field or Sonic.
Time Manipulation is just lacking, but it seems to be average as far as MM secondaries go rather than poor.
The most obvious place my Demons/Time MM saw trouble, apparently due to the nature of Time's powers, was the mission to capture Shen for Bobcat in Praetoria where each ambush is 6-9 minions. They just overwhelm the capabilities of Time Manipulation at that level. Distortion Field certainly helped quite a bit, but the chance to hold was too low for that and the amount of enemies still overwhelmed it.
My Robots/Force Field Mastermind didn't have any trouble on that mission so this was surprising.
Perhaps the problem is most of the Time Manipulation powers are enemy debuffs with lower max target counts than the amount of enemies Masterminds tend to be up against often. Buffs don't have that issue as they mitigate all attacks without regard for some shut off point when too many attacks come in.
I always prefer long term buffs rather than any debuffs, especially when the debuffs have a max target limit and can be resisted.
Anyway, Demons are just the best pet set by far. They have more varied damage than Robots(apparently higher DPS as well), definitely many more debuffs and varied ones(also highly desirable slows and -res) and much more resists than Robots have.
I think Demons are my new favorite pet set. I wish I had not avoided them for so long after I bought Going Rogue. If I had known they were that good then I would have one at 50 already.
A few questions:
1) I'm noticing that the real numbers in game show the lieuts' resistance being modified when I put damage enhancers in them; I remember just after they came out that their damage was limited because of the two aspects being affected by the same enhancements, but I thought they fixed this. Is it still the case that they are linked? As in, if I slot damage enhancements it will boost their resistance, or their damage will be limited as if I were slotting with resistance enhancers?
2) What is the best way to slot the lieuts if you don't need set bonuses out of them? They seem to need so many things, and I'm trying to use them to mule the Steadfast and Gladiator uniques. I think I tried 3 Nucleos, a Golgi, and those two uniques in mids...
3) Which pet is the best to take the Soulbound proc? I'm obviously not going to have room for it in the lieuts, but between the minions and the boss?
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]