I have teamed with Inv tanks on my WP and i have out survived them. Also the main draw back on WP is the low taunt aura which the Inv has more of. To me as far as survivability i prefer my WP over my Inv. But that is just me.
not really a good thing to ask since my fire tank has outlasted wp and invul...you see its all about the build.like they say at the beginning of american chopper.
you can have all the same powers but one will outlast the other based on how you build it.not cause wp is better then invul or invul is better then wp.
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Build =! IO's. Unlikely a fire armor can outlast WP or Inv once they get -recharge on their behind, being a pure resist set without healing i dont see last longer then a defense and mixed based set.
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Originally Posted by Severe
not really a good thing to ask since my fire tank has outlasted wp and invul...you see its all about the build.like they say at the beginning of american chopper.
you can have all the same powers but one will outlast the other based on how you build it.not cause wp is better then invul or invul is better then wp. |
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It's all about the IO's...in this case, My Invul and WP have both outlasted Fire, Ice, Shield and Energy tanks, but this is strictly on a So's to So's level. With the right IO's any tank can outlast every other with ease. On a very base level however (without IO's) my WP has had no problem just standing there and watching the rest fall.....until A Golem comes in.
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"You're like Giraffe's, the way you look down on me, with your vegetarian scorn."
Simply put, regeneration is the least efficient form of mitigation when facing content hard enough to threaten a well built character. This is especially true of tankers, who have the highest resistance cap.
People will argue about this, quoting spreadsheet numbers showing a linear survivability improvement from regen, on paper. The thing is, have you ever died from something that took ten seconds to kill you? Deaths happen by cascading failure, by debuff stacking, by burst damage ; anything else and you have time to react.
Obviously, if you lack any form of healing or regen beyond the base 100%, refuse to use inspirations, and stand still, you will fall down eventually, but it's fairly easy to build an invul to have enough healing power or regen - building about 300% regen through Health slotting and IOs, and/or stacking either Aid Self or Rebirth on top of Dull Pain.
Invul is better against S/L/F/C/E/N, defense debuffs and tohit buffs. WP is better against Psi, fears, confuses. On the other hand, it can be argued Invul's extra mitigation is overkill for most of the game and that it might be better to go for WP's more rounded performance, but in general, given equivalent focus on either powerset (no matter how much inf you throw at it), Invul will perform better against the majority of the mobs in the game.
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One can assume that the Invulns took aggro off of you therefore you outsurviving them is just plain logical.|
Originally Posted by LSK
I have teamed with Inv tanks on my WP and i have out survived them. Also the main draw back on WP is the low taunt aura which the Inv has more of. To me as far as survivability i prefer my WP over my Inv. But that is just me.
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Too many other factors to list.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I only can say from AE missions (SL based) that Inv wont die against +2*8 spawns that dont have -def debuffs, his base regen (health, 1 slot) is enough alone to counter the few odd hits that will hit a capped SL resist. +3 is doable once you bring in CJ/Manu (due increased hitchance).|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Obviously, if you lack any form of healing or regen beyond the base 100%, refuse to use inspirations, and stand still, you will fall down eventually, but it's fairly easy to build an invul to have enough healing power or regen - building about 300% regen through Health slotting and IOs, and/or stacking either Aid Self or Rebirth on top of Dull Pain.
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Equal granite with rooted can do the same, though due lower base defense only the regen from rooted will keep him full health.
WP is the looser of the 3, with base SO's and poolset (CJ, Manu, tough/weave), there is not enough regen out counter the ~18% lesser restistance of SL.
But thats indeed AE, where you pick the mobs very carefully. Though purely based on the main damage of the game, SL, where Inv only taking a 1/3rd damage of what WP has to suffer, i give the odds to inv, though through all the missions i have done.. they die and they survive, they do what tankers do and thats pretty much equaly.
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The materially weaker taunt aura cited by LSK is the most noticeable difference. As New Dawn implies, this can actually help WP survive on teams, if other drag aggro off the Tanker and give WP's regen time to work...but that's hardly the beau ideal of tanking.
One thing to get straight -- when people (like myself) rank Invulnerability slightly above Willpower, it's important to caveat that the difference is slight. It's much narrower than the difference between, say, Granite and other sets. It's also subjective -- we can all create a scenario in which the WP has a clear edge. It may come down to what kind of content one prefers to experience, but (if you do more than farm the enemies weakest against your own build) the game has so many variables it's pretty hard to be more than vague about exactly how much Psi a character will face over a career, for example. By ranking WP third, I' calling it a strong set, and I've seen it do amazing things.
If you were starting a new character, there's perhaps some practicality to dissecting the difference, but on an established level 50 you enjoy, I'd say whatever differences do exist hardly merit starting over from scratch. If it really bothers you that another set is slightly tougher, you might be better off making a Granite Tanker anyway. :P
That said, Nihilii is on-point about hit point regeneration being a reactive form of mitigation. Only those who live through the big hits in the first place get to regenerate, and that takes time, even at the incredible rate WP regenerates. If you're under extreme threat, getting heavy damage fast, a smart WP Tanker isn't going to sit on his regen and think "in ten seconds I'll be fine," he's going to hit some inspirations, use some control-type powers, or adjust tactics. But note that an Inv Tanker could also do any or all of those three things if faced with some sort of crisis (the infamous "psi hole," for example).
As Nihilii pointed out, "Deaths happen by cascading failure, by debuff stacking, by burst damage ; anything else and you have time to react."
Time to react allows a player to...well, react. In the most dangerous content, it's things going very wrong very fast that does in Tankers. "Very fast" works against WP's greatest strength (regen over time).
Let's imagine two Tankers facing, say, the infamous (I think it's Praetorian Bobcat?) AV with the 5,000-damage Lethal attack. Both Tankers have Tough and are soft-capped. What happens? Both the Inv and the WP will likely triumph.
However, if Bobcat gets lucky and lands that 5,000 damage attack three times in quick succession despite the soft cap:
- Inv, with 90% lethal resistance, will take 500+500+500=1500 against his 2400-3500 life. Hits Dull Pain or an inspiration and carries on.
- WP, with 70% lethal resistance, will take 1500+1500+1500=4500, against his somewhat-harder-to-cap hit points, minus a few hundred points of regenerated damage between the attacks, and fall down.
Of course, WP can hit a self-rez power. :P
Is this scenario more likely than the Psychic Clockwork King wasting an Inv with psi? I don't know what you like to do and can't say. I'm merely using that example to illustrate how resistance can be an edge over regen in some situations when things are happening very fast.
But WP is VERY tough and tougher in some situations. To some extent, this discussion is all angels dancing on the head of a pin.
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Basically the devil is in the details.
BOTH are absolutely PHENOMENAL (and complete friggin' overkill) for 99% of the game when IO'ed out properly.
As to survivability, it's really easy to conjure up a corner case where either will come out on top. Let's not and say we did.
In terms of burst damage and taunt aura, Invuln has the edge.
In terms of psi and unresistable damage Willpower has the edge.
Which is better?
And the answer is: BURRITO!
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This.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
One can assume that the Invulns took aggro off of you
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Also, it's slightly unfair, don't you think? Theoretically, two melee ATs walk into a spawn, one is taking more damage, drawing more aggro and therefore contributing more to the combined effort and is experiencing higher risk for doing so, yet both receive equal rewards.
Taunting ability should have been standard for every power set, because as demonstrated this case, having less in that area is an advantage for WP.
And no, I don't think the minor -ToHit from the WP's RttC reciprocates for the Invul. The WP is taking ZERO damage from the enemies that are attacking the Invul, and the debuff is only like 3.5%, provided the WP is right next to the Invul.
Which is why I think Invul should get a power that dumps aggro on a selected teammate: Target the team member and the power forces them to emit a 1000 foot radius PBAoE Mag 99 Taunt. It would be great tool for handing off aggro on BAF runs and disciplining unruly Scrappers.
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I do have to say villain side (if you move your tank) has a considerable larger ammount of psi damage then hero side. Arachnos is full of those psi spamming and end-draining mobs, while the avarage hero might face about the same mobs (CoT, freaks, council, malta) that villains face outside arachnos.
Specialy radio/paper missions in the 'end zone' heroes only face CoT, Carney and Council, while villains got arachnos, council and i believe freaks (with a odd of longbow). If you put those 2 against eachother, heroes are on the advantage. (apart from some -hit and -recharge council mostly is SL based). But if you include tip-missions, it becomes quite equal again.
And lets face it, nobody fights alone. A defense tank can get thermal or sonic goodies, while a resist based can get lovely bubble and ice buffs. If then, by buffs, they all get on equal resist and defense, its their secondairy effect that can make difference (drain resist, slow resist, tohit buffs, regen, healing, lockdown and panic buttons). But eventualy, its the player itself that can make that difference.
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Thats my current issue on trials, with AV's that give warnings and only a few tanks around, its very hard to give back agro to another tank/brute/scrapper. As a granite, i rather would take the beating from nightstar, then a fiery brute that has 10 players around him (due AoE).
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Which is why I think Invul should get a power that dumps aggro on a selected teammate: Target the team member and the power forces them to emit a 1000 foot radius PBAoE Mag 99 Taunt. It would be great tool for handing off aggro on BAF runs and disciplining unruly Scrappers.
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The "You hear what HE said about your momma?" power?
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Which is why I think Invul should get a power that dumps aggro on a selected teammate: Target the team member and the power forces them to emit a 1000 foot radius PBAoE Mag 99 Taunt. It would be great tool for handing off aggro on BAF runs and disciplining unruly Scrappers.
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Exactly. As for it being griefable, that's kind of the point.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The "You hear what HE said about your momma?" power?
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Besides, you can do as much already with Taunt and Ethereal Shift.
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Unless you are just going to hit taunt, brawl, and possibly boxing, I have to ask: what are you paring with each? I've tried to match strengths and prefences. I like stone melee and Dark melee. I have Inv/DM and WP/stone. Stone mitigates a lot of dam due to KD and stuns so I have more time to regen, but is end heavy. DM's tools complement INV, esp Siphon Life. I sure they could have been reversed and performed quite well, but I am satisfied by both and moreso by the diversity.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
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Actually i was getting more aggro then the inv tank. I have been on trials that had other tanks on that r not WP and i some how steal the aggro on my WP tank. I go in suddenly i get 2 warnings i move way. I get held. Move back in after bam 2 warnings again. All the while all the other tanks that are near by gets maybe 1 warning.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
One can assume that the Invulns took aggro off of you therefore you outsurviving them is just plain logical.
Too many other factors to list. |
Thank you for the responses to this. I was mainly considering post-IO play when comparing WP to Invuln and I suppose it can all depend on the build. I've just tried Invuln once before and simply couldn't get into playing it. I suppose my biggest complaint being that Invuln lacks any solid heal (assuming dull pain is more of a +HP/resistance boost as opposed to a healing flames/energize type click heal). While aid self could fix this, Invuln can also suffer from cascading defense failures making aid self rather useless (most notably against arachnoids, arachnos, and rularuu). It is during the time that dull pain is recharging that mobs will have a 2 minute window or so to kill an Invuln tank.
As far as tanking and aggro, playing a WP tank as an active "fighting" tank can fix the issue of a weak taunt aura. By using foot stomp, taunt, jab/haymaker, and darkest night I have no problem in keeping aggro on a mob/AV as long as no other tank is competing for aggro with me. For mobs that are spread out it's also quite easy to herd behind an object/corner or use foot stomp near one group while using taunt on the group not hit by foot stomp for successful aggro control.
I'm currently trying an Invuln/SS tank and will give it the benefit of the doubt at the moment until I hit lvl 50 as my previous Invuln/Elec tank was built before inherent fitness pool and changes to Invuln powers.
One of my 'things' when I do play a tank, however, is that I don't like to use inspirations. It just takes away from the feeling of playing an AT which supposedly shouldn't require inspirations to survive. That is more so my personal playstyle than anything else, but I don't think I could play a char that would have to heavily rely on inspirations. The only time my WP tank ever needs to use them is against +4/8x mobs that have -def, and even then it's rare as long as I'm not playing solo as casting darkest night usually prevents cascading defense failure to occur too early in the battle.
I will agree that regen is a poor form of mitigation, but other than slightly higher resists, Invuln has no better mitigation going for it other than better defense debuff resistance. My WP tanks best form of mitigation is the combination of regen and foot stomp, as enemies on the ground can't really attack and do any damage which is when the regen from WP really shines through, at least from personal experience.
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My intent was to find out if Invuln was indeed superior or better to a WP tank, but I certainly am not considering to start over or delete my WP tank |
Originally Posted by Sailboat If you were starting a new character, there's perhaps some practicality to dissecting the difference, but on an established level 50 you enjoy, I'd say whatever differences do exist hardly merit starting over from scratch. If it really bothers you that another set is slightly tougher, you might be better off making a Granite Tanker anyway. :P |
My thoughts were that due to the fact that Invuln had 20% or so more resistance to everything (and better defense and defense debuff resistance) but psi when compared to WP that it made WP under-perform in comparison as regen wasn't a huge factor for the survival of an Invuln tank (not that it isn't important) while it is for a WP tank. As far as Granite tanks go, if I didn't already have a Granite brute, I would have likely made a Granite tank. I'd just hardly ever consider playing one without a kin buddy that would play with me and give out SB :PBut thanks again for all the clarification on the issue, I was under the impression that there was a larger difference between WP and Invuln than there actually was.
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hahahahahahahahaha clearly you havent seen some of these tanks rolling around have you.
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Originally Posted by SinergyX_EU
Build =! IO's. Unlikely a fire armor can outlast WP or Inv once they get -recharge on their behind,
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While getting a defense fail-cascade on an Invuln is possible, it's not very likely. Invuln gets significant DDR, and more defense with foes in range. |
Originally Posted by GravityBlaze
Thank you for the responses to this. I was mainly considering post-IO play when comparing WP to Invuln and I suppose it can all depend on the build. I've just tried Invuln once before and simply couldn't get into playing it. I suppose my biggest complaint being that Invuln lacks any solid heal (assuming dull pain is more of a +HP/resistance boost as opposed to a healing flames/energize type click heal). While aid self could fix this, Invuln can also suffer from cascading defense failures making aid self rather useless (most notably against arachnoids, arachnos, and rularuu). It is during the time that dull pain is recharging that mobs will have a 2 minute window or so to kill an Invuln tank.
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As for self healing, Radial Rebirth with Spiritual makes it almost a non-issue, and you can IO for regen as well.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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I pretty much agree with this 100%, especially the highlighted section. Of course, this also means I have a very hard time getting into sets without significant resistance... especially since extra defense keeps getting easier to obtain.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Simply put, regeneration is the least efficient form of mitigation when facing content hard enough to threaten a well built character. This is especially true of tankers, who have the highest resistance cap.
People will argue about this, quoting spreadsheet numbers showing a linear survivability improvement from regen, on paper. The thing is, have you ever died from something that took ten seconds to kill you? Deaths happen by cascading failure, by debuff stacking, by burst damage ; anything else and you have time to react. Obviously, if you lack any form of healing or regen beyond the base 100%, refuse to use inspirations, and stand still, you will fall down eventually, but it's fairly easy to build an invul to have enough healing power or regen - building about 300% regen through Health slotting and IOs, and/or stacking either Aid Self or Rebirth on top of Dull Pain. Invul is better against S/L/F/C/E/N, defense debuffs and tohit buffs. WP is better against Psi, fears, confuses. On the other hand, it can be argued Invul's extra mitigation is overkill for most of the game and that it might be better to go for WP's more rounded performance, but in general, given equivalent focus on either powerset (no matter how much inf you throw at it), Invul will perform better against the majority of the mobs in the game. |
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Also, it's slightly unfair, don't you think? Theoretically, two melee ATs walk into a spawn, one is taking more damage, drawing more aggro and therefore contributing more to the combined effort and is experiencing higher risk for doing so, yet both receive equal rewards.
Taunting ability should have been standard for every power set, because as demonstrated this case, having less in that area is an advantage for WP. |
Really, the biggest rough spot is early leveling because:
a) taunt durations scale with level, so they're fairly short compared to lvl50
b) lack of slots, so Taunt's duration/recharge won't be as long/fast as it is at lvl50 (esp when factoring in IOs)
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Originally Posted by Severe
hahahahahahahahaha clearly you havent seen some of these tanks rolling around have you.
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Thank you for your very constructive reply.
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Originally Posted by Severe
hahahahahahahahaha clearly you havent seen some of these tanks rolling around have you.
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Yeah. With both Willpower and Invulnerability characters IO-ed out, my WP worries about, and has been defeated by, cascading defense failure; my Inv never has (runs about 50% def with one foe in range, for some buffer).
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
While getting a defense fail-cascade on an Invuln is possible, it's not very likely. Invuln gets significant DDR, and more defense with foes in range.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I always view Invulnerability as a very "solid" set, with a good combination of defense and resistance along with wide coverage of debuff resistances. It's perfect against the most common forms of damage, good in general, and has more difficulty with the most exotic types of damage and control.
Willpower by contrast is a very "comprehensive" set, with a thorough mix of defense, resistance and regeneration. Because it has strong regen, it has no major holes at all - it's even got limited effectiveness against untyped damage. It covers you on the exotic status protections like confuse and fear, but only affords you minor debuff resistance in a couple of areas. It has slightly stranger slotting options and a quirky taunt aura, but a much more user friendly T9 power.
That's how I always see those alternatives, anyway.
The sets are pretty well-balanced overall and both are great. If pushed to make a recommendation, I would say...
1. If you want to tank large/multiple spawns, then I would recommend Invuln, but...
2. If you don't care so much about that, but still want to tank AVs/GMs, then I would recommend WP, but...
3. If you don't care about tanking at all and still want survivability, roll a WP Brute, but...
4. If you don't care about tanking at all and want the best possible offense, regardless of survivability, roll an FA Brute
I have a WP/SS and a INV/NRG tank that are both well IO'd.. In all honesty they can both pretty much survive anything thrown at them in the PvE game...
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
I'm sure this has been asked and discussed more than once but I would like to get some clarification on these 2 tanker sets. The consensus appears to be that an Invuln tank is powerful straight out with the right power choices and slots while Willpower can match an Invulns survival with enough investment in influence.
What I'd like to know is if Willpower can surpass Invuln against the majority of mobs in regular game-play (outside of AE). I have a level 50 WP/SS tank and love the way it performs and yet I see a lot of people recommending Invuln over WP and putting it in the 2nd place behind Stone Armor or almost always above WP. Is this simply because an Invuln is cheaper to build than an identical/superior WP tank or is there something that I've missed when looking at an Invuln tank?
I know that Invuln gets a higher defense debuff resistance at 50% vs. 25% or so for WP, a better defense buff layer with invincibility, and higher resistance for s/l/e/n/f/c/t damage types. It is also easier to cap HP with perma dull pain.
Willpower on the other hand can easily hit 120hp/sec regen with just a single foe in range of RttC, get soft cap def to s/l/e/n/f/c, and has better psionic resistance/def than Invuln along with inherent +HP from HPT.
Invuln lacks in regeneration, at least in comparison with WP, but has about 20% more resistance to s/l/e/n/f/c/t damage than WP does. It would appear that the regeneration from WP should be more than enough to outperform an Invuln tank in most cases unless there is some other reason as to why Invuln is better or WP is weaker. I currently have a level 30 Invuln/SS tank and used to have an Invuln/Elec tank before it got hit with the "delete" button. As before I'm having difficulties in playing an Invuln tank and feel as though WP and Invuln were from opposite poles when it comes to game-play.
So to sum up my question, is it possible for a Willpower tank to outperform an Invuln tank given a good inf investment or does Invuln remain superior? There are of course cases that can be argued for either side, but in general, which one works best against the majority of the mobs within the game?