Discussion: Divided We Fall
By
2short2care,
Posted on: 2011-09-07 11:12 in News, Events and Announcement Discussion
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Wow I have not heard that phrase in years and I am sorry but That dog won't hunt. You just referenced back to the government for legitimacy in committing a killing. How exactly does that work? If someone says it is okay for you to kill another human being it is okay?|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
Nice try, but that dog won't hunt. Why not get in touch with Seal Team 6, who took out good ole Bin Laden, and tell them that? I'm sure they'd be interested in knowing that they are evil for killing evil. You make a conscious act to kill a murderer without the consent of the law, and then yes, you commit an act of murder. However, you kill a murderer with the consent of the law, and then your actions are justified by the law. That is the difference in making the right moral choice. Your argument is straw man argument. You do know the difference from right and wrong. There are no levels of "rightness or wrongness." It is either right or wrong you cannot have it partially. |
This is not an example of absolute morality, this is subjective morality where the case for the rigthness of an action or the wrongness is involved with who is doing what.
If the government says blue people are okay to kill is it? If a deity steps down into the mortal world and tells everyone to kill all people who are left handed, does that make it right? If so you do not believe in absolute morality because you do no apply your moral code equally.
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My personal moral standard is fairly subjective so you really prove nothing by asking me. All I can do is ask how these examples you're citing are different from many of the deities that they ascribe to?|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
Really? Then how do you define Qaddafi, Idi Amen, Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Bashar al-Assad, Mahmud Ahmadinejad, Kim Jong-il, Kim il-sung, General Tito, Stalin, and lastly, Adolf Hitler by your moral standard? Are their actions grey and they can be viewed as heroes by those who support them? I am interested in how you will explain away the actions of these barbaric mass murderers.  |
There's plenty that would yak at me all day about the actions of Nazi Germany (without which, Hitler would have had no power) being evil and in the same breath would tell me how wonderful their genocidal messiah is. That's a moral dual-standard and I tend to take people that hold to that with a grain of salt.
There's many that would also run around decrying the Islam hardline but also, in the same breath, claim that their Christianity is flawless; despite the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Hunts, US Slavery, southern church bombings, etc.
People even bring their subjective morality into politics and cause a great divide because they choose to perceive or interpret (possibly the same moral code) [] differently.
Man create[s] [] moral code and [] change[s] it exhaustively to meet his subjective needs. Man doesn't necessarily adhere to moral codes as much as they adhere to him.
There may be axioms that make for good common sense to prevent the extinction of the species but beyond that there's probably a good deal of fluff.
Off the cuff:
'Frailty'
'Supernatural'
'Dogma'
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I think the devs (and particularly Protean) have been extra careful to give Cole an aura of plausible deniability, where all the dirt and ugly things that happen in Praetoria are the sole responsibility of his minions until proven otherwise. Of course we all *know* Cole is evil, just as Superman *knows* Lex Luthor is evil, but I dare you to point your finger at something evil you personally witnessed Cole doing.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
GR was filled with Tyrant's crimes, and there's info all over the place about just what a nightmare his "utopia" is.
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There are alot of rumours, accusations and innuendo, but as of yet all I'm certain is that Cole was willing to invade Primal Earth (while trying to keep civilian casualties to a minimum) and that he's willing to kill in cold blood to prove a point (he killed Duray in front of several witnesses). All else is speculation.
Assuming good triumphs in the end, we'll either be able to pin something relevant on Cole or prove he's just a misunderstood vigilante who had to make hard choices to save mankind. In the meantime, we Primals seem to be adopting typical Longbow behavior - shoot first, and let God sort out the innocent.
Plus, even assuming Cole knew of some of the horrors being committed in his name, it's not yet clear if they were actually necessary to keep Praetorians safe. For example, Mother Mayhem is enslaving all psychic women in Praetoria, often times their families too. DeVore claims she's a psychic vampire, Mother claims that psychics are potential threats to the general populace. Until First Ward came, I bet we all assumed Tilman was lying (I did), but after seeing mutated tentacles grow out of a Seer's head in a base full of dead soldiers, I'm not so sure anymore.
My point being, wait and see. Praetoria's tale is far from told and you can't guess an ending that hasn't been written yet.
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Laws are transient and are only equal to the morality of the region and time. If you're equating morality to the letter of the law; then in South Dakota, it is moral to kill a group of three or more Natives (as they constitute a War Party). It would've also been moral to uphold the Jim Crow laws and items like the 3/5ths Compromise... as it represented the laws and moralities of their respective times.
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Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
Nice try, but that dog won't hunt. Why not get in touch with Seal Team 6, who took out good ole Bin Laden, and tell them that? I'm sure they'd be interested in knowing that they are evil for killing evil. You make a conscious act to kill a murderer without the consent of the law, and then yes, you commit an act of murder. However, you kill a murderer with the consent of the law, and then your actions are justified by the law. That is the difference in making the right moral choice. |
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What I'm saying is that the only definition they can give to morality in general is the one they've taken upon themselves.|
Originally Posted by AllYourBase
What? "They can define their version of" absolute morality?
That doesn't make sense. Absolute morality is absolute. According to Merriam-Webster, Absolute means, among other things: "Independent of arbitrary standards of measurement." No definitions required. No versions allowed. Now, calling one's own morality "absolute" obviously does not make it so. Perhaps that's what you're getting at? |
That being said, if there was such a thing as absolute morality[,] any interpretation of that absolute is akin to defining it... and we should be well aware of the diversity of interpretation.
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when talking about morality. relativism and absolutism are both terms defining a type of moral view. if you want to drag out a definition, don't go look up what relative and absolute mean, go look up what relative morality and absolute morality mean.
when you say something is Evil, if you do not apply that statement back on yourself or in other similar situations, you are being relativistic. If you apply the statement too all of the cases given, you are being absolutist. I suppose you could be an absolutist in governed morality, whatever your chosen authority tells you to do, you do. This is generally not the way the term is applied though to my understanding. Rather then a central agency for actions being the important part in a moral consideration, the base act removed of circumstance is consideed.
Case in point Statesman as portrayed in the comics is an absolute moralist. He believes killing is wrong in any cisumstance, going so far as to censure Manticore for killing Protean, a known assassin and overall scumbag.
Cole may have started with wanting to help himself and others, and may have been altruistic during initial DE attacks because he wanted a stable environment primarily for himself but maybe for others. This may very well been opertunistic and certainly necessary at the time - *primative* but good survial stratagy. Now, as he maintains that position, the "surviaval of humanity" seems like a side-effect. His rule is one that chases his own interests for his own interests. If the people really understood the danager then, the people would fight for there own survival and it shouldnt be nessary for all the oppressive overtones. Cole's current vision is the same for all persons mad with power: they want more power. His means are barbaric, may have been necessary early on with garrilla war with DE, now its rampant (uncontrolled, undiciplined, unnessary) power/selfishness for the sake of power/selfishness by whatever resource he has available. Maybe we'll find out why he just doesnt leave and let Praetoria fall to DE. Praetoria must still be useful somehow, but it's is being strun-along as an abused unequal: Evil.
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From: http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/09/08/ci...ogues-gallery/
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What broken oath?
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The Talons of Vengeance The Talons of Vengeance are the most single-minded of the four factions reviewed here. The Talons serve the Well of Furies, a sentient source of great power in City of Heroes. Their sole purpose is to punish all of those who break their oath to the Well. Who is the target at the top of their list? Emperor Marcus Cole, Tyrant of Praetoria. |
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Don't forget that the Hamidon isn't trying to kill everyone - the Tellurian Palgue is intended to transform people into Devouring Earth creatures, not kill them - like Tyrant, the Hamidon sees the solution to the "problem" of humanity being the transformation of humans into something inhuman.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Maybe this is true, but the people will live and the species will continue, with opportunities to gain influence and power within the organization, under Cole's vision.
Hamidon just wants to end the species. Life or death? Tyranny or nothingness? I guess it's more of a question of "do you believe in a better life after death or the absolute tyranny of nothingness after death?". |
That's the way the twin monsters of Praetoria are set up - the Hamidon is the physical/outer monster, a human that has gained incredible power and became a huge beast that transforms humans into creatures to serve its will and "save" the world from humanity - while Tyrant is the mental/inner monster, a human who has gained incredible power, who transforms humans into mindless slaves to serve his will and "save" the world from humanity - which is why the Praetorian content has such a strong emphasis on mental violence and slavery, as well as obsession and insanity - the physical horror of the PPD and the loyalist stormtroopers with their torture rooms and secret slaughter houses under the streets takes a back seat to the mental horror of Tyrant's enslaved though police, the BAF, and the drugged water supply.
That's why Tyrant and the Hamidon were able to reach an agreement on how to deal with the "problem" of humanity - becuase they're both aiming for the same goal - to transform the people into something that's no longer human - and the people of Praetoria are trapped between the outer monster beyond the sonic fences, and the inner monster who is crushing them in his iron fist inside the fences.
And that's where the players come in - our task is to set the people free by defeating both the monsters, the tyrant and the beast, who between them are transforming the people of Praetorian Earth into things that are no longer human.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That's not correct at all - one of the main things that dictatorships do is to make laws to strengthen their position, and give the illusion of justice, and trick people into thinking that they're not just thugs abusing their power.|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
However, you kill a murderer with the consent of the law, and then your actions are justified by the law. That is the difference in making the right moral choice.
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For example, there are laws in Praetoria, even though there don't need to be - Tyrant is immortal and almost invincible, and his chief supervillain followers are also incredibly powerful - if he and his henchpeople decide to do something, no one can stop them - but by creating laws, the loyalists can give the impression that there's justice in their system - they could torture and muder the opponents of their dictatorship without needing any laws, becuase they hold all the power - but they prefer to work behind a facade of legality, to give the illusion that they follow a set of laws and rules.
For example, Calvin Scott was sent to Mother Mayhem's asylum by imperial decree, even though Tyrant just needed to call someone like Marauder and tell him to get rid of the man who was asking difficult questions about what happened to his wife - but as a legal system is an important part of any civilization, the self-appointed "champion" of civilization needs to work within some kind of legal framework to avoid looking like a power-crazed monster.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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If you play the Loyalist path to the end in Praetoria, you get a chance to meet Cole face to face. In that meeting Cole admits both that he "has blood on his hands" and more specifically he has no intention of ever allowing humanity to make significant choices for themselves as to their destiny, and will destroy (as in "kill") anyone who opposes him. Not just anyone who is a proven threat to him, because as far as Cole is concerned all humanity cannot be trusted: either people follow him and are safe to remain alive, or they oppose him in which case they are too dangerous to live.
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
There are alot of rumours, accusations and innuendo, but as of yet all I'm certain is that Cole was willing to invade Primal Earth (while trying to keep civilian casualties to a minimum) and that he's willing to kill in cold blood to prove a point (he killed Duray in front of several witnesses). All else is speculation.
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And assuming his spies have given him the basic info on Primal Earth, he'll know that over 6 billion people live there, and that his plans to exterminate anyone who resists his invasion will lead to a morally gray body count.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you play the Loyalist path to the end in Praetoria, you get a chance to meet Cole face to face. In that meeting Cole admits both that he "has blood on his hands" and more specifically he has no intention of ever allowing humanity to make significant choices for themselves as to their destiny, and will destroy (as in "kill") anyone who opposes him. Not just anyone who is a proven threat to him, because as far as Cole is concerned all humanity cannot be trusted: either people follow him and are safe to remain alive, or they oppose him in which case they are too dangerous to live.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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So he is Joseph Stalin.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you play the Loyalist path to the end in Praetoria, you get a chance to meet Cole face to face. In that meeting Cole admits both that he "has blood on his hands" and more specifically he has no intention of ever allowing humanity to make significant choices for themselves as to their destiny, and will destroy (as in "kill") anyone who opposes him. Not just anyone who is a proven threat to him, because as far as Cole is concerned all humanity cannot be trusted: either people follow him and are safe to remain alive, or they oppose him in which case they are too dangerous to live.
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Remember when he ordered that only military targets be attacked? Honestly, I imagine the body count will be significantly less than you think, because he won't start killing dissenters until after he's taken control and established Enriche dispensaries and Seers.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
And assuming his spies have given him the basic info on Primal Earth, he'll know that over 6 billion people live there, and that his plans to exterminate anyone who resists his invasion will lead to a morally gray body count.
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Well, he's going to have anyone who stands against him murdered - so that's not just military targets:|
Originally Posted by DAAOOAA
Remember when he ordered that only military targets be attacked? Honestly, I imagine the body count will be significantly less than you think, because he won't start killing dissenters until after he's taken control and established Enriche dispensaries and Seers.
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"Those who are in Praetoria deserve the chance to live. But not the people in Primal Earth. They have gone for far too long believing in their own way of life. I cannot simply go in there and have them change. No, doing so would be far too difficult and would risk the lives of those in Prateoria. The only way this can end is for all those in Primal Earth who can stand against me to be wiped out. The others will be assimilated into the new Praetorian society on Primal Earth." |
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| "We have been ordered by Cole to take any non-super powered being prisoner and to have the Seers scan their minds to see if they are a threat. Any civilian who is not a threat will be allowed to live under Cole's new empire. We have also programmed the machines to avoid attacking civilians, though casualties due to collateral damage can not be avoided." |
Plus, he's also intending to invade every Earth in the multiverse, where he'll repeat the same tactic - kill anyone who fights his stormtroopers, and then kill anyone who thinks about resisting his dictatorship - so he'll be racking up a body count in the millions for each Earth he enslaves - and multiplying that by the number of Earths there are in the multiverse , it's quite clear that he's totally ok with killing trillions of people for the "greater good".
That's why we get that darkly humorous line of him accusing Duray of crimes agaisnt humanity, when he himself is the biggest threat to humanity in the entire game - none of the other supervillains or their organizaitons come anywhere near Tyrant and the loyalists in the scope of their evil.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Someone hold me and give me my blankie because GG makes too much sense lately. o.O
You mention the story involving Durray, GG... in which Cole is angry with Durray for causing the deaths of civilians... which implies that he only plans to target military personell (at least for now).
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I met *someone* at the end of the Responsibility path as I left Praetoria, but I'm pretty sure that was Protean, not Cole. What would Cole be doing on Primal Earth anyway? Stopped by for a chat, to confess his evil plans to a low-level Powers Division about to defect? If Cole even knew Provost Marchand was sending Powers Division across a portal to interfere with the upcoming invasion, I'm pretty sure there'd be another set of teeth flying.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you play the Loyalist path to the end in Praetoria, you get a chance to meet Cole face to face. In that meeting Cole admits both that he "has blood on his hands" and more specifically he has no intention of ever allowing humanity to make significant choices for themselves as to their destiny, and will destroy (as in "kill") anyone who opposes him. Not just anyone who is a proven threat to him, because as far as Cole is concerned all humanity cannot be trusted: either people follow him and are safe to remain alive, or they oppose him in which case they are too dangerous to live.
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You mean the story where Tyrant made sure he had a room full of people to witness just how much he cares about avoiding civilian deaths? Tyrant is always very keen to present the right image to people |
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
You mention the story involving Durray, GG... in which Cole is angry with Durray for causing the deaths of civilians... which implies that he only plans to target military personell (at least for now).
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Morality is, by definition, subjective, therefore it is always "calling ones own morality absolute" when you call a person evil.|
Originally Posted by AllYourBase
What? "They can define their version of" absolute morality?
That doesn't make sense. Absolute morality is absolute. According to Merriam-Webster, Absolute means, among other things: "Independent of arbitrary standards of measurement." No definitions required. No versions allowed. Now, calling one's own morality "absolute" obviously does not make it so. Perhaps that's what you're getting at? |
"Good and evil do not exist except in the minds of men."
(I'm pretty sure somebody said that as a quoted phrase from the past. If not then it should be quoted from me.)
The universe doesn't give one rap about good and evil. It just works as is with all the miracles, like life on Earth, and disasters, like landslides on earth and dying stars and black holes sucking up planets and light.
Life and death are intrinsically linked. Morality is applied to the human control of such and depends on the person applying the moral judgement.
Some believe murdering people is justified, while others believe no murder is justified, and still more believe murder is wrong but justifiable against murderers(as in the death penalty).
It's all subjective.
As far as the universe is concerned, Emperor Cole is neither good nor evil, but if the universe dose favor order and survival then Emperor Cole is more on that side than the side of chaos and death.
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Honestly whether you believe in a soul or not, having your mind changed to that of somebody/something else is "dying", especially without any reversing method/cure.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Don't forget that the Hamidon isn't trying to kill everyone - the Tellurian Palgue is intended to transform people into Devouring Earth creatures, not kill them - like Tyrant, the Hamidon sees the solution to the "problem" of humanity being the transformation of humans into something inhuman.
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Hamidon IS death for them.
Also, do you think Hamidon will keep him soldiers alive once he has cleansed the earth? Or, will he have finally reached his apparently mindlessly obsessive goal then destroy the last remnants of humanity(the transformed ones) and slumber the sleep of a hard worker after a "job well done" until a new threat to the earth/Hamidon possibly arises?
The people want to keep both their minds and bodies intact, and Emperor Cole does that a lot better and more than the human leaders before Cole's empire or the Devouring Earth and Hamidon.
It's all a question of perspective and majority leaning of actions.
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After reading the rest of your post, you are jumping to conclusions LIGHT YEARS ahead of the canon story or any NPC subjective story.
Don't count your conspiracies before they become true.
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And there lay the question:|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you play the Loyalist path to the end in Praetoria, you get a chance to meet Cole face to face. In that meeting Cole admits both that he "has blood on his hands" and more specifically he has no intention of ever allowing humanity to make significant choices for themselves as to their destiny, and will destroy (as in "kill") anyone who opposes him. Not just anyone who is a proven threat to him, because as far as Cole is concerned all humanity cannot be trusted: either people follow him and are safe to remain alive, or they oppose him in which case they are too dangerous to live.
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"Is what Cole is doing necessary or unnecessary?"
"Is it evil and necessary or evil and unnecessary?"
Obviously, controlling people is morally wrong, but it brings up several questions that make it the right or wrong choice.
Examples:
1) How much is he controlling people? Is he just putting them on "happy pills" so they do the same things they always would except the evil ones? Is he making them mindless?
Apparently, Praetoria is still full of independent thinkers and those who still choose questionable acts so either the mind control isn't working for most people or it isn't strong and is more like "hypnotic suggestion" to do good things.
2) Is the drugging and such really necessary? Are the people of Praetoria prone to violence?
Can we judge that based on the "close cousin" Primal earth and all the evil and corruption there? If we do then maybe Cole is right. If Praetoria were to be like Primal Earth then it certainly would be worse off with many more dangers than just the Devouring Earth that ended up "top dog" in Praetoria.
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You meet Cole in the Power storyline as well. He gets around.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
I met *someone* at the end of the Responsibility path as I left Praetoria, but I'm pretty sure that was Protean, not Cole. What would Cole be doing on Primal Earth anyway? Stopped by for a chat, to confess his evil plans to a low-level Powers Division about to defect? If Cole even knew Provost Marchand was sending Powers Division across a portal to interfere with the upcoming invasion, I'm pretty sure there'd be another set of teeth flying.
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I'm inclined to believe it was him, "surveying the battlefield".
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