Inferring Intent from Reward


Eva Destruction

 

Posted

Suppose we were to assume that the developers communicate what they wish players to be doing through the reward system. This is not a completely insane idea: after all, empirical evidence shows that aggregate player activity is often strongly influenced by rewards, and surely the developers are in an excellent position to be aware of this. What, then, do the developers want us to do, based on relative reward?

1. Farm AE.
AE farming is the single best way to earn XP, Influence, and many commonly sought rewards. It is wildly better reward/risk and reward/time than doing just about anything else. AE farms ran over 2XP weekend. It's that good. Clearly it's the thing the developers most want us to do.

2. Be a hero or villain and run Tip missions.
Most Tip missions can be stealthed in a few minutes. Running five a day, every day, gets your pick of most of the more highly sought items three or four times a week, per alt. The rewards are equivalent to up to 200 reward merits - that's several long task forces, or dozens of short task forces, or scores of standard arcs representing hundreds of individual missions.

3. De-PVP.
There are no rewards that are optimally gained from fighting other players in PVP. There are, however, a number of good rewards that are optimally gained from cooperating with your assumed opponents while in a PvP setting. Many PvP zones set up a prisoner's dilemma, where the best option - collaborating - maps to not PvPing in the PvP zone. All PvP zones encourage PVPIO farming, which goes a lot faster when one person does the killing and several others volunteer to be sacrifices, and is completely ruined if someone decides not to play along and instead goes and actually fights people.

My point, to phrase it delicately, is that what the developers have stated as their intent for the players, and what the reward system communicates, are somewhat different on occasion. I don't have a proposed remedy - I am merely noting the message that I receive.


@SPTrashcan
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Posted

I'd throw "take money from other players" in there, as playing the market yields much better rewards than either tips or tickets.

It's pretty significant in my own decision making. Making more influence in one hour of playing the market than in ten hours of efficient play, part of the incentive to actually play the game dissapears.

I guess it is good that they added an untradeable currency for incarnates - which I would also throw in that list, by the way, because XP or loot is trivial to get whereas incarnates take hours, if not dozens of hours to grind no matter how good you are yourself, due to the high number of players required.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
My point, to phrase it delicately, is that what the developers have stated as their intent for the players, and what the reward system communicates, are somewhat different on occasion. I don't have a proposed remedy - I am merely noting the message that I receive.
In the cases of AE and Tips, the imbalanced risk/time-reward may well stem from the devs' desire to attract player participation in new features. Tweaking that after launch not only requires further development time, but also risks drawing criticism, so apparently any losses are being cut while the devs go on to create entirely new systems (e.g. Incarnate, Freedom).

Gaming post-Issue 13 PVP and playing the volatile Wentworth/Black Market are different cases...


 

Posted

I think they would do well to reduce the Reward and Alignment Merit costs of recipes. Or at the very least reconsider the rarity of certain items.

The other day I gathered up a full set of purples from the market. They weren't the most popular purples, but they weren't exactly cheap either. I raised money to buy them by selling recipes earned with Alignment Merits (where oranges never go for more than 2). Enhancements: 6. Total Alignment Merits spent: 6. Normal price per Enhancement (in this set): 20.

This means I spent 1 Alignment Merit per Enhancement, spending a mere twentieth of the price the devs pretend they're worth. Working with three characters for tips, I had all six in 4 days instead of the month and a half the devs want you to spend to get just one of them.

It should be noted, however, that I ultimately got six purples by trading three oranges. This indicates that the rarities of some items are terribly disproportionate to their perceived worth by players.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
I'd throw "take money from other players" in there, as playing the market yields much better rewards than either tips or tickets.
This only works if a relatively small percentage of players are doing it. In order to take money from other players you need a bunch of other players to give you money.

Quote:
I guess it is good that they added an untradeable currency for incarnates - which I would also throw in that list, by the way, because XP or loot is trivial to get whereas incarnates take hours, if not dozens of hours to grind no matter how good you are yourself, due to the high number of players required.
Yep, farm AE for XP, farm more AE or farm tips for loot (which some ebil marketeer will "steal" from you to get more loot than you in less time with less farming), farm trials for Incarnate powers.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyPerfect View Post
It should be noted, however, that I ultimately got six purples by trading three oranges. This indicates that the rarities of some items are terribly disproportionate to their perceived worth by players.
I think the main reason that oranges are "worth more" to players than Purples is that Purples are mentally on the "don't even think about it" shelf for most players. I know I have the influence (through doing exactly what you do - rolling oranges, selling them and keeping the stuff I want for my alts) to buy sets of purples for my 50s. I don't bother because meh. Purples aren't THAT big a boost in my mind that I should throw THAT much influence at them. It's much easier for me to stack a lot of LOTG recharges and the heal Uniques than to even consider whether I want to go after a purple set.


 

Posted

You missed:

4) Run trials to get Empyrean merits, which will allow you to obtain very rare recipes faster than alignment merits (limited to 1 Empyrean merit/day/trial, soon to be 2/day for Keyes, and soon to have four separate trials for the potential to get 5 Empyrean merits/day).

5) Run trials to get Astral merits, which will allow you to obtain rare recipes in less calendar time than alignment merits, at the expense of more real time. These can be obtained at the rate of 5 or 6 per trial with no limit on the number earned per day, and since rare recipes cost 16-32, you can, if you want, run them to get LotG: +recharge recipes until your fingers bleed.

6) Run trials for incarnate XP to obtain access to incarnate powers that are effectively impossible to get in any other way.


 

Posted

I want to be clear as to my personal opinion here.

I have no problem with choices having consequences. I have no problem with different activities offering different rewards, or with the idea that there exist faster and slower ways to obtain a given reward. I certainly have no problem with the market being a PvP environment with winners and losers, and I say that as a person who frequently and willingly loses at market PvP.

I am, however, troubled by the specific examples I gave, because to me they represent the strongest examples of incongruity between what the development team has stated they want the players to do and what the system created by the development team grants tangible rewards to players for doing.


@SPTrashcan
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Posted

you could also play the game for fun and the enjoyment of actually playing, rather than aiming solely for a "reward"



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodion View Post
5) Run trials to get Astral merits, which will allow you to obtain rare recipes in less calendar time than alignment merits, at the expense of more real time. These can be obtained at the rate of 5 or 6 per trial with no limit on the number earned per day, and since rare recipes cost 16-32, you can, if you want, run them to get LotG: +recharge recipes until your fingers bleed.
Related to this, running lots of iTrials for their actual completion salvage table rewards looking for rare and very rare drops, while not spending Astrals to create the many commons you get (since common and uncommon drops are abundant) leaves you able to create a lot of recipes in addition to making Incarnate progress. I am simultaneously making Incarnate progress and creating a huge bank of stuff for my next few characters. My last few characters put through the iTrials have earned about 900 Astrals which were not spent on incarnate salvage. (I stopped spending Astrals on salvage after we got the ability to downgrade uncommons, and around the same time we were told what else we would be able to spend them on.)


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Red
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
I am, however, troubled by the specific examples I gave, because to me they represent the strongest examples of incongruity between what the development team has stated they want the players to do and what the system created by the development team grants tangible rewards to players for doing.
In that case, I see why you left the trials out of your post, since the development team wants us to farm them until our eyeballs bleed.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
In that case, I see why you left the trials out of your post, since the development team wants us to farm them until our eyeballs bleed.
The term "grind" may also be applicable.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
you could also play the game for fun and the enjoyment of actually playing, rather than aiming solely for a "reward"
I could, and do. So do many others. But as I stated, in aggregate, player behavior is strongly influenced by tangible rewards, and the developers should know this, but they seem to be repeatedly surprised when highly rewarding activities become highly popular, even though they spent significantly more time and effort on improving the quality of other activities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
In that case, I see why you left the trials out of your post, since the development team wants us to farm them until our eyeballs bleed.
I am indeed not commenting on Incarnate Trials, because, regardless of how I feel about them, the degree of reward associated with the trials is consistent with the degree of effort the developers have expended on the trials and the apparent value they assign to the trial experience. Assigning high reward to content that some people do not enjoy is a different kind of decision from assigning high reward to some content while expending effort and resources on improving the quality of other, less rewarding content.


@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
I am indeed not commenting on Incarnate Trials, because, regardless of how I feel about them, the degree of reward associated with the trials is consistent with the degree of effort the developers have expended on the trials and the apparent value they assign to the trial experience. Assigning high reward to content that some people do not enjoy is a different kind of decision from assigning high reward to some content while expending effort and resources on improving the quality of other, less rewarding content.
True, but the two things the trials do have in common with those things you mentioned is that they are highly rewarding, and that they are highly repetitive.

Which just begs the question: did the devs base the Incarnate system on the philosophy of "well, if everybody loves farming so much, we'll just make them farm what we want them to farm! And we'll require such big teams so that the uber elite farmers can't exclude everyone else! Farming for everyone!"


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

The basic problem I see is that the Devs have given us a WEALTH of content, but the players choose to grind that which is most easily repeated.

I think the devs want us to do a variety of content to avoid burnout, but how to do that? They would have to give a 'first time you did this mission today' bonus or something that would be brokenly huge.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Which just begs the question: did the devs base the Incarnate system on the philosophy of "well, if everybody loves farming so much, we'll just make them farm what we want them to farm! And we'll require such big teams so that the uber elite farmers can't exclude everyone else! Farming for everyone!"
I maintain that it's far simpler than this. I believe the devs set up trials in the way that they did because at least some of them (probably the ones involved in developing the endgame system) really, really enjoy repetitive mega-raids and random rewards. This is the sense I get from explicit developer statements. For example, Mr. Miller recently posted that a solo incarnate path cannot be as rewarding as the rewards from trials, because that might mean trials would be run less often, which would limit the enjoyment of players who like the trials. To me, that simply indicates that at least some developers like the type of content we have as trials. Given that mega-raids and random rewards are key components of many online games and that many devs have been socialized to expect such gameplay from those games, this shouldn't be too surprising. (Make no mistake, I think those developers' ideas are completely wrongheaded, but I know that not everyone agrees with me.)

With the other items mentioned in the OP, I suspect it's more a state of deadlock among different parts of the dev team. There are a number of times, for instance, that we've been given the impression that there are strong divisions of opinion within the whole team about the scope and rewards of AE. Indeed, I suspect that the entire system would have been removed from the game by now if certain developers had their way, and that the only reason it survives and continues to grant rewards is that it would be a customer relations disaster to remove it. Similar arguments can be made for PvP or the alignment merit system. All of these could be characterized as situations where cures for the problems might end up being worse than the diseases.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
you could also play the game for fun and the enjoyment of actually playing, rather than aiming solely for a "reward"
I honestly don't see why doing a mission arc is any more "fun" than doing a set of tips.

It's the same set of maps. Same groups of enemies. Same superhero-themed set of mission objectives. But with arcs, I get the fun of bouncing from zone to zone for no good reason instead of staying in one zone and getting my tips there. The stories in 90% of the arcs are not good enough to make me eager to do them over and over instead of doing tips over and over for a much better reward.

I enjoy tips just as much as any other mission - because I enjoy my character, and the people I game with. We also share an enjoyment of the rewards inherent in tips.

The reason I do not enjoy doing trials over and over is that there's rarely a situation in which I can use my full suite of powers or that my powers specifically matter at all (3-4 groups, everyone is at least a little redundant and combat is pretty fast) and I have to run with a bunch of strangers because I have a small gaming group and no wish to join a large SG.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
you could also play the game for fun and the enjoyment of actually playing, rather than aiming solely for a "reward"
Excluded middle much? Do both. What is 'fun' should be rewarding, what is rewarding should be 'fun'.

If something is 'fun', but not rewarding, then those who enjoy rewards won't do it; those who don't care about rewards will do it if they find it 'fun'. If something is rewarding, but not 'fun', then those who enjoy rewards will do it because rewards are 'fun'.

Care to take a guess as to how much of the playerbase enjoys rewards in comparison to those who will do 'fun' things without also earning a reward for doing it?

Hint: What you consider 'fun' isn't necessarily what others consider 'fun'; what others consider 'fun' isn't necessarily what you consider 'fun'. This is as it should be.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
you could also play the game for fun and the enjoyment of actually playing, rather than aiming solely for a "reward"
Part of the fun requires power escalation, which necessitates playing for reward.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails View Post
The basic problem I see is that the Devs have given us a WEALTH of content, but the players choose to grind that which is most easily repeated.

I think the devs want us to do a variety of content to avoid burnout, but how to do that? They would have to give a 'first time you did this mission today' bonus or something that would be brokenly huge.
It's not just most easily repeated, it's clearly better benefits.

One of the issues the devs have is they've introduced too many forms of in-game currency. I'm trying to take the dev-sanctioned way of obtaining a single PvP IO. No one runs Keyes, so I run a BAF and LAM every night for 30 days... for one IO. It'd probably be smarter to buy oranges and make money to buy the IO, but I am still taking a dev-sactioned path because it is quicker than any other dev-sanctioned path (half the time of alignment merits). Even still, I think the cost is a bit extreme and I find myself viscerally disliking the grind and the game. One obvious solution is to eliminate the different forms of currency and normalize the costs. Let me run any content for as much reward as the trials. Let me play an hour or two every night and still find myself with enough reward to buy a PvP IO. Instead, they've greatly diminished my enjoyment of the game by altering my playstyle such that I'm playing sub-optimally if I do anything else. I was only able to log in tonight for long enough to look around and I couldn't force myself to accept any trial invites. I don't think this is a good path.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodion View Post
4) Run trials to get Empyrean merits, which will allow you to obtain very rare recipes faster than alignment merits (limited to 1 Empyrean merit/day/trial, soon to be 2/day for Keyes, and soon to have four separate trials for the potential to get 5 Empyrean merits/day).
6

Underground will reward 2 Emp merits upon completion. 2+2+1+1 = 6


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
I could, and do. So do many others. But as I stated, in aggregate, player behavior is strongly influenced by tangible rewards, and the developers should know this, but they seem to be repeatedly surprised when highly rewarding activities become highly popular, even though they spent significantly more time and effort on improving the quality of other activities.

I am indeed not commenting on Incarnate Trials, because, regardless of how I feel about them, the degree of reward associated with the trials is consistent with the degree of effort the developers have expended on the trials and the apparent value they assign to the trial experience. Assigning high reward to content that some people do not enjoy is a different kind of decision from assigning high reward to some content while expending effort and resources on improving the quality of other, less rewarding content.
I've seen some of this before, and I think in some cases, they're trying to handle the "small" (relatively) number of players who might prefer that content otherwise. For instance, in an MMO with the traditional five-fixed-roles team system, introducing 1-2 player instances with slightly lower rewards may seem paradoxical -- but it serves a large number of otherwise un-served players. So it can be a good choice.

The thing about an MMO is, you don't necessarily want to spend all your time on stuff that "most" players enjoy. A really good effort at something that only 30% of players (who are currently unhappy) enjoy may have more subscriber-base benefit for you than a comparable effort on something that 70% of players enjoy -- but those 70% of players are already happy.