You don't see a lot of Bubblers because Cold does the most important part just as well (practically speaking) and has awesome debuffs too. You don't see many Defender primary Bubblers because secondary bubbles are just as effective (practically speaking) and there's no need for the slight edge in +def numbers that being a defender will get you.
Cold has no status protection like dispersion bubble. Insulation shield also has endurance drain protection. Adding freaks to the mix of sappers makes it all the more useful.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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There's one thing a Force Field defender can do that noone else can: grant perma 38% defense to 255 targets with 3 clicks (Powerboost, Deflection, Insulation) at range - no spamming "gather". It's easy, fun, and very powerful. Cold can't do that. Not thermal either. Not Emp. Not anything. And FF Controllers and Masterminds can't quite reach the levels of defense defenders can offer.|
Originally Posted by Mint
I just want to know why I dont see many bubbler "Defenders" anymore
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Put red fortunes/serendipity in your defense powers (PFF, Deflection, Insulation, Dispersion, Maneuvers, Weave), put Gaussians in Tactics, and Zephyr in Hover and Flight and you'll have as much defense as your teammates.
Now pick archery for a secondary and your recharge bonuses from the io sets mentioned above will allow you to wipe out entire groups every 24 seconds from 100 feet away with no endurance crash.
But hey defense is overrated these days and defender damage sucks, so you should probably just make a farming brute.
PRTECTR4EVR
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If you can afford that, you can afford to get the same results, and much more (like a -regen debuff big enough to matter), by perma-AMing and softcapping a rad defender. Copy, paste, and save for future shaming if I'm wrong: By New Years 2012, Time will be buffed, or Time will be as rare as Poison.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Perma Chrono Shift. Perma Power Boosted Far Sight. Nuff said.
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Sorry for the minor derailment.
Re: Emp vs Kin
I'd put Kinetics above Empathy for buffing, as well. Empathy's cooldowns are its undoing; long recharge, single target anything doesn't work in a game the scale of City of Heroes, where a 20 versus 2000 encounter is "a slow day" for many of us.
True, Empathy can keep up with other buffing sets, but to do so, it requires either 1) a lot of practice and concentration from the player, or 2) a specially constructed superteam with +recharge buff stacking, Green Machine this means you. Kinetics buffing, on the other hand, is limited only by damage hardcaps and your endurance bar, which, of course, is no longer an issue after Transference.
Re: Cold vs FF
Yeah, FF's got it rough. The only two things it has on Cold right now are aesthetics and power boostable shields. I'm not sure what would be worse for FF, power boost getting nerfed, or allowing customization for invisible cold shields. They'd both be pretty awful.
But that isn't to say FF is useless. I doubt I'd ever pass up an opportunity to have a bubbler on a PuG. In a land of crazies, the padded wallpaper installer guy is king. Or something like that. Want to see my magic jacket?
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You can't softcap a rad defender to everything(either ranged, or S/L/E with no resistance shield), and you can't softcap everyone around you with a rad defender either. Also, Rad isn't really a "buffer", as awesome as AM is.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
If you can afford that, you can afford to get the same results, and much more (like a -regen debuff big enough to matter), by perma-AMing and softcapping a rad defender. Copy, paste, and save for future shaming if I'm wrong: By New Years 2012, Time will be buffed, or Time will be as rare as Poison.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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It does have Heat Loss though.|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
Insulation shield also has endurance drain protection.
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Originally Posted by Knowmad
There's one thing a Force Field defender can do that noone else can: grant perma 38% defense to 255 targets with 3 clicks (Powerboost, Deflection, Insulation) at range - no spamming "gather".
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I was thinking about making a bubbles/electric. The tactic I was thinking about was yeah, shield the whole team, but slot all electric powers for endurance drain, and try to sapp the baddies as much as possible. Again this probably looks good on paper, but not sure if it will work out like I think it will, but still wanna try it out.
I see what your saying on Cold vs FF and how Cold offers so much more to the table for helping a team than bubbles, but you would think that since bubblers can only offer bubbles to the team primarily, that their bubbles would be so good that they would be the strongest defensive buff in the game. Bubbles is all they have really, I would like to see the bubbles be something stronger.
My question to all is, why would you pick a bubbler defender over any other defender build out there?
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You answered this yourself when you said you| My question to all is, why would you pick a bubbler defender over any other defender build out there? |
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| wanna try it out |
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Heat loss is nice, but it isn't available for each and every sapper.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
It does have Heat Loss though.
... |
Additionally, Forcefield has some situational tricks - not used every spawn - like force bubble and detention field.
Taking down Lord Recluse is fairly standard now that most teams do the flying tank next to a pole motif, but if your team is attack the blue pylon, throw detention field on the red and vice-versa. For the initial fight with four pylons active, it can help quite a bit.
Force bubble has shown itself to be invaluable in the Tin Mage strike force in the Director warehouse room. First, with positioning, you can deny the Malta line of sight AND to my inexperienced eye it DOES repel the invisible bomb layers so the team can huddle in safety inside the force bubble which is HUGE. Note: the Director is immune to Force Bubble's repel.
Force Bubble on a blaster/defender/controller/corruptor/dominator team is an amazing thing.
None of this is an every-spawn deal, but its another tool in an ala Batman's utility belt.
--------
Secondaries - I support Sonic, archery AND dual pistols, which has another crashless mini-nuke of doom.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Sappers aren't a big enough big deal that it would make the end drain resist better than the +recov from HL. If you add in that Insulation shield has the added perk of end drain res, i think it only fair to add in Ice Shield and Glacial shield have some damage resistance too.
Shenanigans
LotD - JaL - POWT/SMD - SoCo - AJs
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It depends on how much time you are playing malta, freaks with super stunners, or carnies. And no, I don't think that FF is BETTER than COLD, but it offers more than 38% and/or soft cap defense.
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Originally Posted by Mirage_Mage
Sappers aren't a big enough big deal that it would make the end drain resist better than the +recov from HL. If you add in that Insulation shield has the added perk of end drain res, i think it only fair to add in Ice Shield and Glacial shield have some damage resistance too.
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Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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Another example of sapping I can think of is Lord Recluse in the STF. I've seen many Invuln, WP, SD, and Ice tanks get into trouble with their lack of end drain resistance. Sure the Ice shields get a bit of Fire/Cold resistance, but FF gets a lot of toxic resistance which is very handy in the Apex TF.|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
It depends on how much time you are playing malta, freaks with super stunners, or carnies. And no, I don't think that FF is BETTER than COLD, but it offers more than 38% and/or soft cap defense.
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To me, the highlight of FF is how passive it is and the fact that you get an extra AoE power. The damage of Repulsion Bomb might not seem much, but with Reactive any AoE attack is welcome.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Kinetic !!
When I am not playing my kinetic, this is the buff I prefer to have in my team.
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Might as well fire off the HoT under PB too. 8-p|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Perma Chrono Shift. Perma Power Boosted Far Sight. Nuff said.
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I'm thinking PB is a must have power for Time Manipulation, but that's gonna mess with my APP shields a bit, I suppose I'll figure something useful out regardless.
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Just to play devil's advocate ...|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
Force Bubble on a blaster/defender/controller/corruptor/dominator team is an amazing thing.
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When you're playing on a team when it's likely your teammates are /more/ than softcapped, why even bother with Force Bubble?
Why would you throw out an AoE that disrupts other people's AoEs?
FF was designed for a game with a ST, tactical component, but we ended up with an AoE zergfest, a design the devs have embraced, whole-heartedly, with only one detour during the I5 nerfs.
Quick ... how many powers have had their KB mag increased since release? How many powers have had their KB decreased? How many repel powers have been added? In fact, one of the only times the devs have broken their coveted cottage rule was by removing a Repulsion Field clone from stalker EA.
The game has changed, significantly, since release. The playstyle the devs anticipated FF would slip into doesn't exist. FF should've been re-tooled years ago. But the devs took the easy way out and simply turned three powers into an "I Win!" combination for a bubbler's teammates.
I like the game. I like the devs. But I think the devs have horribly mismanaged FF.
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Because in general, 5% of ranged attacks do less damage than 5% or melee ones. The other aspect is that the repel action frustrated foes when they are dead-set to melee your team.|
Originally Posted by BurningChick
Just to play devil's advocate ...
When you're playing on a team when it's likely your teammates are /more/ than softcapped, why even bother with Force Bubble? Why would you throw out an AoE that disrupts other people's AoEs? ...snip |
I don't know what AoE you are talking about but in a range-heavy team situation, targetted AoEs are as good at 10 feet away as 100.
If Force Bubble isn't bunching things at the end of a dead end or a nice corner, it isn't practical to use. Turn it on, turn it off, just like hurricane.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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Well ...|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
Because in general, 5% of ranged attacks do less damage than 5% or melee ones. The other aspect is that the repel action frustrated foes when they are dead-set to melee your team.
I don't know what AoE you are talking about but in a range-heavy team situation, targetted AoEs are as good at 10 feet away as 100. If Force Bubble isn't bunching things at the end of a dead end or a nice corner, it isn't practical to use. Turn it on, turn it off, just like hurricane. |
A long time ago, I ran some tests with Force Bubble on my FF / rad -- nothing all that rigorous, but what I found is that Force Bubble reduced incoming damage by about 20% compared to not using it (piece of trivia: lieuts / snipers have the same 1x modifier for their ranged and melee attacks), but reduced MY damage output by nearly a third. So ... it would take longer to finish a mish, resulting in my bubbler taking more damage over the course of the mish than if she hadn't bothered with FB.
Granted, Cosmic Burst had a shorter range back then, but FB negated my best ST attack (Cosmic Burst) and my most versatile AoE (Irradiate).
Those sweet spots for FB in tight corners just don't happen all that often. And, over the course of a mission, will result in ... well, not much overall protection.
The devs have added in a few high level missions tailor-made for Force Bubble, but that's simply throwin' a dog a bone, as it were.
The primary fault of FF is that Maneuvers adds more protection to a bubbler's teammates than the final three powers combined.
Edit: Also worth noting: to the best of my knowledge, the devs haven't add a new cage since Sonic, even in sets where it would be thematically appropriate. FF is filled with dogs, and the dearth of new caging, repel, and (high mag) KB powers since CoV's release speaks volumes about how useful the devs feel these powers are.
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People who don't use extraneous apostrophes?
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Originally Posted by Mint
Far as buff's go, who is the best at it?
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Your lack of imagination, creativity, foresight, and inventiveness does not persuade me to abandon tools in a powerset that I enjoy. Not all battles scenes have to feature a tank in the middle of a room trying to pile the whole mission on him in a burn patch, mud pots, or other wonderful pile of aggro poo. Some tanks can actually use imagination, creativity, foresight, and inventiveness to include the capabilities of teammates in the battle plan. Does it matter if the foes are bunched in a dead end, a small office, or against a wall rather than in the middle of the room? Or, should we eliminate all powersets with repel and knock back to appease the whims of the unimaginative, uncreative, blind, and luddite?
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Originally Posted by BurningChick
Well ...
A long time ago, I ran some tests with Force Bubble on my FF / rad -- nothing all that rigorous, but what I found is that Force Bubble reduced incoming damage by about 20% compared to not using it (piece of trivia: lieuts / snipers have the same 1x modifier for their ranged and melee attacks), but reduced MY damage output by nearly a third. So ... it would take longer to finish a mish, resulting in my bubbler taking more damage over the course of the mish than if she hadn't bothered with FB. Granted, Cosmic Burst had a shorter range back then, but FB negated my best ST attack (Cosmic Burst) and my most versatile AoE (Irradiate). Those sweet spots for FB in tight corners just don't happen all that often. And, over the course of a mission, will result in ... well, not much overall protection. The devs have added in a few high level missions tailor-made for Force Bubble, but that's simply throwin' a dog a bone, as it were. The primary fault of FF is that Maneuvers adds more protection to a bubbler's teammates than the final three powers combined. Edit: Also worth noting: to the best of my knowledge, the devs haven't add a new cage since Sonic, even in sets where it would be thematically appropriate. FF is filled with dogs, and the dearth of new caging, repel, and (high mag) KB powers since CoV's release speaks volumes about how useful the devs feel these powers are. |
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
Charisma, uniqueness, nerve, and talent!
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I always found it to be a situational power on my bubbler. As teams race and fast-forward through missions, I'd often end up stuck with a boss or lt. that all the melee people ignored at the back of the team. So I'd use Force Bubble to push those guys back up into the herd with the rest of the mobs. Or if you're getting beat on, it can be a good defensive power to get someone off you. Every once in awhile, you'll have a good situation to pin some guys in a corner. But it's definitely not something I would just run with on all the time. Can't see running through an entire mission with it on unless it was an all squishy or ranged team or something. Like you said, it would be more counter-productive to the team to do that. Detention Field is pretty much useless on a team too. You've got a guy standing around out there that no one can kill...generally not a crowd-pleaser when it comes to teams either, lol.
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Originally Posted by BurningChick
Just to play devil's advocate ...
When you're playing on a team when it's likely your teammates are /more/ than softcapped, why even bother with Force Bubble? Why would you throw out an AoE that disrupts other people's AoEs? |
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My first 50 was a bubbler; I do know what the set offers and I stand by my statement. On a practical level through the vast majority of the game Cold will do just as well as FF for shielding and offer massive debuffs at the same time.
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Originally Posted by Psylenz
Cold has no status protection like dispersion bubble. Insulation shield also has endurance drain protection. Adding freaks to the mix of sappers makes it all the more useful.
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Ahhhhh ...|
Originally Posted by Psylenz
Your lack of imagination, creativity, foresight, and inventiveness does not persuade me to abandon tools in a powerset that I enjoy. Not all battles scenes have to feature a tank in the middle of a room trying to pile the whole mission on him in a burn patch, mud pots, or other wonderful pile of aggro poo. Some tanks can actually use imagination, creativity, foresight, and inventiveness to include the capabilities of teammates in the battle plan. Does it matter if the foes are bunched in a dead end, a small office, or against a wall rather than in the middle of the room? Or, should we eliminate all powersets with repel and knock back to appease the whims of the unimaginative, uncreative, blind, and luddite?
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You can't attack my argument, so you attack me instead.
Nice
Force Bubble / Hurricane spammers are very much the same people as the Must Herd tankers they mock ; they want to feel like they're the star of the show, they want to dictate the pace, efficiency be damned, and indeed efficiency is damned as their suboptimal and universal approach to each and every fight slows down any team but the weakest ones.
The rest of the team? They're just here to watch. Don't move while I herd, my minions. Don't drop PBAoEs while I repel stuff, my peons. Oh, and perhaps they're also here to actually do the important part, killing mobs, despite the best efforts of the "star" to slow them down. Such teamplay.
Don't get me started on labelling doing the same thing over and over creativity. Be it steamrolling or herding/pushing mobs to a corner, it's still doing the same thing.
Yes, putting your pants on your head is different. That does not mean it's intelligent to do so. Being different for the sake of being different doesn't make you a creative and inventive individual. It makes you a hipster (and I guess herd tankers are the rednecks ; yes, I like that analogy).
What is being creative and a team player is using repel at just the right time to push back mobs right into that tar patch they left ; or, heaven forbid, play with a melee character rather than against him, for example by luring a second group right into his taunt aura while he's holding the aggro of a first group, speeding up defeats ; or, yes, back things into a corner when it is actually convenient and will result in something more efficient than not doing that. One time out of ten fights, when it's called for, not every single encounter.
Using one strategy all the time is by definition brainless, regardless of what strategy we're talking about. Adapting and using powers in situational ways require much more awareness and advanced decision making.
A lot of Time powers are lookalikes to famous great buffs and debuffs existing in other sets. It also features a combo system that makes its buffs and debuffs more effective on certain targets. This makes Time look awesome on paper: 1/2 empathy plus 1/2 rad plus 1/2 storm plus critical heals and debuffs on demand equals godly.
In practice, the Time version of these powers often have double the recharges of their lookalikes in other sets, and/or greatly reduced effectiveness. Also, the extra numbers added by its combo system are small. 1/10 empathy plus 1/10 rad plus 1/10 storm plus better heals on 1 teammate at a time and marginally better debuffs on 1 enemy at a time equals meh. Conventional wisdom on the test server is that Time is okay for soloing, though it needs changes if it's going to be on the same level, soloing or teaming, as the other debuff sets.
Also, anyone who gets Grav/Time to level 50 without powerleveling, I will buy you a beer if you're ever in town. And then have you committed. Have a nice day.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster