Scrappers tend to have a little better damage output. Brutes have a little better survivability. The critical hit and fury mechanics also mean they can play differently, even with the same power sets. Not all power sets are available on both archetypes.
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"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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A scrapper will start a fight dealing more damage than a brute, because a brute has to build fury while a scrapper's first strike will be at full power. A scrapper can also stop fighting for a few minutes and jump right back in dealing full damage with it's first strike again. Brutes are a lot more yo-yo like with their damage output. If they slow down for more than a few seconds their fury drops and they have to build it back up again. |
Originally Posted by Mint
I was doing some reading and read that Brutes have High damage and High defense, while Scrappers not so much as a brute. With that being said why would you make a scrapper over a brute, what advantage do you gain?
What can a scrapper do or do better than a brute? |
Scrappers also get more benefit from most damage bonuses, due to their higher damage modifier. Lightning Rod and Shield Charge will deal more damage when a scrapper uses them because they have a set damage cap and use the ATs damage modifer. That means a brute's higher damage cap is useless and the scrapper gets the advantage because they have a 1.125 modifier to the brute's .75 modifier.
Brute has a higher damage cap, and will deal somewhat more damage than a capped scrapper while at that cap. BUT....that damage cap is so high it is virtually impossible to reach without outside assistance. You can eat 20 large red inspirations and be at the cap for a minute, but you can't do that consistently.
In actual gameplay a scrapper will usually deal more damage than a brute. There are exceptions, but most of the time the scrapper will put out more damage, and more consistently.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
If all you care about are the numbers, then brutes are better.
They have a much larger performance envelope than scrappers, tanks, or stalkers. This is simple fact.
Scrapper builds that rely on pseudopets outdamage brutes. Brute builds that rely on dots outdamage scrappers.
Brutes are always more durable than scrappers. In the presence of buffs, on teams or farms, brutes are much, much more durable. With buffs, brutes are as tough as tanks, practically speaking, and lose no damage output.
Brutes are better, it is simply a fact.
However, I find scrappers and tanks to both be much more fun. For howling-mad combat, nothing beats a scrapper. For complete battlefield command, nothing beats the calm supremacy of a tank.
Play what you LIKE. Always. Screw the numbers.
The Brute's extra health is very noticeable. In most cases I'd go Brute. They level better, they are much more survivable, and in secondaries where their specialty resistance can max they are much better at farming.
Here's my F2P Scrapper or Brute decision tree: (I skipped the sword sets part since Brutes will get those now.)
~ Do you want to play Super-strength?
If yes, go Brute. If no:
~ Does you secondary have a taunt aura in it?
If no, go Brute. If yes:
~ Does you secondary have damage effects that would be boosted by Fury?
If yes, go Brute. If no:
Does your secondary have a specific resistance that caps out and can be abused in special AE farms, where as a Brute you can hit 90% resist?
If yes go Brute. If no:
~ Does your secondary have a lot of mitigation from healing or regen where the effect of your higher health is exaggerated?
If yes, go Brute. If no:
Will the Fury mechanic annoy me on this character?
If yes, go Scrapper. If no:
Will I be using the character in groups (possibly with tanks or multiple Brutes) that will steal my agro or move too slow to keep up fury?
If yes, go Scrapper. If no:
Do I mind having Gloom in my rotation?
If yes, go Scrapper. If no:
Will I be trying stupid scrapper tricks where the extra damage in my superior single target chain might make the difference in success?
If yes, go Scrapper. If no:
Go Brute because the high hit points is better than the small damage boost of the scrapper.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
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Bear in mind that while the differences are there, and the differences are real, the performance differences can take a spreadsheet to notice sometimes.
The further you are willing to push the concept, the larger you can make the differences become. But, iirc, we're often talking about differences that are within 10% of one another.
The biggest difference, the most noticeable difference is in the contrast between crits and fury.
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You should include some stipulations about sets with pseudopets or built-in damage buffs providing more benefit to Scrappers than Brutes, such as Elec Melee (Lightning Rod), Kin Melee (Power Siphon), Dark Melee (Soul Drain), Dual Blades (Blinding Feint), and Shield (Against All Odds and Shield Charge).|
Originally Posted by Moonlighter
The Brute's extra health is very noticeable. In most cases I'd go Brute. They level better, they are much more survivable, and in secondaries where their specialty resistance can max they are much better at farming.
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Damage buff powers are largely desaturated on Brutes because so much of their total damage comes from Fury, their base values are fairly low.
Pseudopets are strictly better on Scrappers because they have damage caps of 400%. I believe this even applies to Burn, but Fiery Aura being resist based doesn't do Scrappers any favors with that set.
At the very least you should include an "if you want to play Shield Defense, go Scrapper" line, because that one stacks both mechanics against the Brute.
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
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Not to mention, Fiery Embrace benefits from Brute Fury, as does Blazing Aura, more HP for bigger Heal from the heal.|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
You should include some stipulations about sets with pseudopets or built-in damage buffs providing more benefit to Scrappers than Brutes, such as Elec Melee (Lightning Rod), Kin Melee (Power Siphon), Dark Melee (Soul Drain), Dual Blades (Blinding Feint), and Shield (Against All Odds and Shield Charge).
Damage buff powers are largely desaturated on Brutes because so much of their total damage comes from Fury, their base values are fairly low. Pseudopets are strictly better on Scrappers because they have damage caps of 400%. I believe this even applies to Burn, but Fiery Aura being resist based doesn't do Scrappers any favors with that set. At the very least you should include an "if you want to play Shield Defense, go Scrapper" line, because that one stacks both mechanics against the Brute. |
But yeah, from a purely numbers point of view, depends on the choosen set combos.
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The BrandX Collection
Primaries that heavily buff their own damage, such as dark melee, dual blades and claws are also universally better on scrappers. Kinetic melee isn't even close. If scrappers got super strength with unchanged numbers adjusted for AT mods, nobody would roll brutes anymore. Street justice looks pretty cool for brutes however.
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The two top SD Builds, Fire and Dark, are both stronger on Scrappers by an amount that the Brute can not even pretend is close by any stretch of the imagination.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Scrapper builds that rely on pseudopets outdamage brutes. Brute builds that rely on dots outdamage scrappers.
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DB, KM? Scrapper wins.
So what builds in particular that use a shared primary are Brutes out-damaging Scrappers?
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Originally Posted by mauk2
Brutes are better, it is simply a fact.
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There is one single Brute build that is currently out doing Scrappers - and as soon as Scrappers get Super Strength, the Scrapper version of SS/FA will most likely outclass the Brute version in damage output even without Gloom.
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Since when does 'performance envelope' mean only DPS?|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
The two top SD Builds, Fire and Dark, are both stronger on Scrappers by an amount that the Brute can not even pretend is close by any stretch of the imagination.
DB, KM? Scrapper wins. So what builds in particular that use a shared primary are Brutes out-damaging Scrappers? You mean except for all of the top DPS builds where they are totally outclassed by Scrappers? There is one single Brute build that is currently out doing Scrappers - and as soon as Scrappers get Super Strength, the Scrapper version of SS/FA will most likely outclass the Brute version in damage output even without Gloom. |
Reading comprehension much?
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I'm honestly not sure Fire melee on a scrapper would out damage Fire melee on a brute, due to the DoT not critting, but being affected by fury. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
The two top SD Builds, Fire and Dark, are both stronger on Scrappers by an amount that the Brute can not even pretend is close by any stretch of the imagination.
DB, KM? Scrapper wins. So what builds in particular that use a shared primary are Brutes out-damaging Scrappers? You mean except for all of the top DPS builds where they are totally outclassed by Scrappers? There is one single Brute build that is currently out doing Scrappers - and as soon as Scrappers get Super Strength, the Scrapper version of SS/FA will most likely outclass the Brute version in damage output even without Gloom. |
I'm not counting high end, damage capped builds, but even if i was, does the extra DoT being fueled by fury out shine the crit damage of Scrappers fire melee?
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As I mentioned above with SD, the answer is yes.|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
I'm honestly not sure Fire melee on a scrapper would out damage Fire melee on a brute, due to the DoT not critting, but being affected by fury.
I'm not counting high end, damage capped builds, but even if i was, does the extra DoT being fueled by fury out shine the crit damage of Scrappers fire melee? |
AAO pumps the Scrapper's DPS up to a point that not even the addition of Gloom or the Fury enhanced DoTs can keep up with.
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Since when does performance envelope only mean buffed for mitigation?|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Since when does 'performance envelope' mean only DPS?
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And it's not like you're going to see equivalent build Scrappers dropping dead faster than their Brute counterparts.
I'll let you post some actual numbers to back up your claims about "DoT" based Brutes. Or better yet a pylon run that actually proves it.
Otherwise, this is more of the same baseless claims that you always make in these kinds of threads.
Coming into the scrapper forum with this question is tantamount to stepping into a steakhouse and asking whether people prefer steak to seafood. The answer is most likely going to be extremely biased.
At the end of the day, though, it's a matter of taste.
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Seriously?|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Since when does 'performance envelope' mean only DPS?
Reading comprehension much? |
OK... so you recognize that a whole lot of Scrappers can do more damage than their Brute equivalents. We're also aware that Brutes have higher hit points and that in at least some cases, their higher resistance cap can play a factor (but certainly not in all cases, or perhaps even in most). DOTs, pseudopets, punchvoke, blah blah blah.
This, in my mind at least, means the comparison is not simple and obvious like you make it out to be. You have to weigh damage vs. hit points, fury vs. immediate gratification, better aggro control vs. lesser aggro control (some people like less, even if I'm not one of them) and so on.
It is not a case where:
- "If all you care about are the numbers, then brutes are better." False. They're better in some ways, worse in others.
- "They have a much larger performance envelope than scrappers, tanks or stalkers. This is a simple fact." Uh, no, it's not so simple, unless your definition of "performance envelope" is extremely simple. Oh, but that's what you were accusing Deus of thinking, so surely it's not that. If your definition of performance envelope is more general, more complicated, then there's no simple fact here. There are a whole lot of trade offs between the various archetypes. None are unambiguously better in all ways than others.
- "Brutes are better, it is simply a fact." No, it's not. You seem to have a misunderstanding of what a "fact" is compared to, say, an "opinion". "Brutes have higher resistance caps" is a fact. "Brutes are better" is not. They may be better in certain ways, in certain combinations, and so on, but they are not clearly, unambiguously better.
You remind me of the people that think scientists are stupid because they haven't thought of obvious things like "If the oceans rise due to global warming, then everyone can just take a bucket of water out of the ocean and dump it into their sink. Fixed! I can't believe the stupid scientists haven't thought of that."
You're not always wrong. You're not always right. Often, it's not even a question of right and wrong. But whatever it is, you seem always convinced that the truth is simple, you're in posession of it, and that anyone that disagrees with you is stupid for not seeing the simple truth. It's been wearing on me. It's tiring. The world, even this virtual world, is more complicated than that.
Why I waste my breath, I don't know. Obviously you're not going to change, and arguing on the internet just makes me stupid.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
At the very least, people like me are entertained by it. So thanks for that.
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Originally Posted by Werner
Why I waste my breath, I don't know. Obviously you're not going to change, and arguing on the internet just makes me stupid.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
Ah, i guess i missed that part about SD.. yep, that explains it. SD gives so much more to scrappers, that it would push higher then brute counter parts.. Now fire/fire brutes vs fire/fire scrappers, and brute would pull ahead.. (at least in theory, due to better taunt, higher resistance, higher HP, which means higher heals, and more damage)
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
As I mentioned above with SD, the answer is yes.
AAO pumps the Scrapper's DPS up to a point that not even the addition of Gloom or the Fury enhanced DoTs can keep up with. |
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I'm not totally sure if the Brute would be doing better ST DPS, but I don't actually have it worked out on paper to say one way or the other. |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Ah, i guess i missed that part about SD.. yep, that explains it. SD gives so much more to scrappers, that it would push higher then brute counter parts.. Now fire/fire brutes vs fire/fire scrappers, and brute would pull ahead.. (at least in theory, due to better taunt, higher resistance, higher HP, which means higher heals, and more damage)
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The other advantages I agree with.
In many ways FA does work out better for the Brute as you noted, I personally think SD is the much better set overall however and the Scrapper's offense advantages there heavily outweigh the comparitively tiny mitigation advantage Brute SD gets in return (chiefly 12% more HP, & better potential out of OWTS).
That's my subjective opinion on the sets, I'm sure there are people who will prefer FA for whatever reason. I just find the overall combination of mitigation and offense that SD brings to the table more enjoyable.
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arguing on the internet might make you stupid but it is always fun to read when it is other people doing the arguing. |
Originally Posted by Werner
Why I waste my breath, I don't know. Obviously you're not going to change, and arguing on the internet just makes me stupid.
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To the OP
I love Scrapper. Brutes are my second favorite AT. When I want to make a new Scrapper/Brute It is mostly a toss up to want I make. I will only make /SD Scrapper because /SD is better for Scrappers and I already have an SS/SD at 50. I will also only make a /Fire Brute. I can't make an /Fire Scrapper anymore. /Fire is way better IMO for a Brute and I don't find /fire Scrappers as fun.
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Scrappah all the way!!!!
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QFT. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
At the very least, people like me are entertained by it. So thanks for that.
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The breath might be wasted on the intended person, but the rest of us certainly appreciate the hell out of it.
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Lol i like the way you post (:
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
QFT.
The breath might be wasted on the intended person, but the rest of us certainly appreciate the hell out of it. |
SShhhhh dont tell no one but i heard dech's has a small e-peen lol (:
Yeah well rather than dogpiling the interloper, consider that perhaps he just really likes brutes and is trying, against his bruter judgment, to reach out to the scrapper forum. One can be mistaken without being intentionally intransigent. Or at least I hope so, for my own sake.
I was doing some reading and read that Brutes have High damage and High defense, while Scrappers not so much as a brute. With that being said why would you make a scrapper over a brute, what advantage do you gain?
What can a scrapper do or do better than a brute?