You really do not need the leadership pool. Maneuvers and tactics are both end hogs. Both CJ and weave are both better for def and lighter on end. Why did u take kick over boxing? Kick is a KB attack you will be better if you took boxing to keep the enemy's closer to you. And why 2 stead fast the only one u need is the one that gives u +3 on def.
Not at home so I can't play with mids; a few minor points, though:
Looks like you've typed DM as primary, since a Tank wouldn't get Midnight Grasp at 32, but rather at 38.
Is there a specific reason you want to dip into the Leadership pool?
You have the fighting pool open already, and are considering Energy mastery, so why not just take Weave and Focused Accuracy?
Also, I think Stealth would be more beneficial than Maneuvers. I know Stealth offers higher defense values than Maneuvers for tanks, but I'm not sure about the end use.
Lastly, but that's just my bias, I would skip Elude.
Oh...with, or shortly after, i21 go-live, the APP's will open up so that will give you more flexiblty in building...and you may want to look at Soul Mastery (if you don't mind running a patron arc to get more powers)
In order to play with a build in Mids until they release the I21 update, you can use a DM/SR Brute. The power order and defense values won't be right, but you can at least plan slots and IOs.
The defense is actually easy to calculate. Just divide the defense (before IO defense bonuses) by 0.75 and you'll have your tanks defense numbers.
I agree with the others above that Leadership is probably not the best way to go, but that's a personal preference and it can work just fine for you.
The vast majority of my characters end up with Tactics, so choosing the Leadership pool in this build was more or less done out of momentum. As I think about it though, you guys are right. Foregoing Leadership in this build is a net gain. Instead of:
20) Leadership:Maneuvers
22) Leadership:Tactics
24) Fighting:Kick
26) Fighting:Tough
...
32) Midnight Grasp
...
38) Lucky
...
49) Taunt
use:
20) Fighting:Kick (I believe it 2ndy effect is knockdown not knockback.)
22) Fighting:Tough
24) Fighting:Weave
26) Taunt
...
32) Lucky
...
38) Midnight Grasp
...
49) ? Focused Accuracy ?
This saves both the endurance load of a pool toggle and the four slots I add to Tactics in order to 5-slot the Adjusted Targeting set. Weave offers more defense than Maneuvers. The loss of Maneuvers to team defense could well be offset by the much earlier Taunt, which might stop teammates being hit just as much. And if he really needs the extra toHit provided by Tactics, getting Focused Accuracy would be a reasonable substitute.
-- Rich
* Thresholds CoH: What to do When
* My Comics Collection
You don't even really need Weave, which is itself a bit of an End hog for too little gain.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
That depends on whether you are going for 45% (normal PvE) or 59% (iTrials, certain Tip mission mobs) defense.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
You don't even really need Weave, which is itself a bit of an End hog for too little gain.
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Focused accuracy is a big end hog also, and stealth is not that good u only get the def when you are stealthing and is a as bad on end use.
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Originally Posted by TeutonicRogue
Is there a specific reason you want to dip into the Leadership pool? You have the fighting pool open already, and are considering Energy mastery, so why not just take Weave and Focused Accuracy? Also, I think Stealth would be more beneficial than Maneuvers. I know Stealth offers higher defense values than Maneuvers for tanks, but I'm not sure about the end use. |
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actually your wrong on that account weave gives you a better def then maneuvers and is less on end.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
You don't even really need Weave, which is itself a bit of an End hog for too little gain.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
You don't even really need Weave, which is itself a bit of an End hog for too little gain.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LSK
actually your wrong on that account weave gives you a better def then maneuvers and is less on end.
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You can get 45% with slotted toggles, 1-slot passives, steadfast +3def, and 1-slot combat jumping.
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Well, with just Combat Jumping and a Steadfast +Def you can already be up to just over 48%. A couple of set bonuses and Nerve Radial later you can be slightly over the 59% cap.|
Originally Posted by Caulderone
That depends on whether you are going for 45% (normal PvE) or 59% (iTrials, certain Tip mission mobs) defense.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LSK
actually your wrong on that account weave gives you a better def then maneuvers and is less on end.
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EDIT: And, yes, unnecessary for capping SR, which was my chief point.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
I'd rather get there (59%) with Weave and go for another Alpha. But, that is just personal preference.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Well, with just Combat Jumping and a Steadfast +Def you can already be up to just over 48%. A couple of set bonuses and Nerve Radial later you can be slightly over the 59% cap.
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45% is ridiculously easy. I have an exemplar build planned that can keep 45% defense to M/R down to L10, possibly lower. Below level 13, AoE defense drops due to losing Lucky(18).
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Indeed. Wonderfully easy. So easy that I feel I can achieve it in more than just theory (or Beta).
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Originally Posted by Caulderone
45% is ridiculously easy.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
SR for tanks, if it follows the same values as Shield on defense numbers, and Invuln on the passive numbers (as compared to scrappers and brutes) will soft-cap with no IOs or extra powers at all. |
Originally Posted by Caulderone
I think the point was you could get to 45% without either.
You can get 45% with slotted toggles, 1-slot passives, steadfast +3def, and 1-slot combat jumping. |
JUST slotting the toggles and passives should put you at 47% or so.
If that's true, and I believe it will be, focus your slotting and power choices on things that will increase damage output, recharge, and Max HP.
If Tanker SR will softcap without any extra powers or IOs, maybe adding Assault would be viable.
I would DEFINITELY go Soul Mastery for this build. I have a DM/SR brute and Gloom is really nice for the ST DPS it adds, and Dark Obliteration is a not-too-shabby AoE as well.
The best part of SR for tanks is you don't have to worry about soft-capping at all, so you can focus 100% of your build goals on other things.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I've been leaning on an DM/SR scrapper for awhile, and while its a different animal then a SR tanker, is the 59% incarnate softcap that useful? I know only DE enemys in tip missions require it, and they throw down the quartz pets that make defense pretty much not exist anyways.
Quote:
On Beta:|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
JUST slotting the toggles and passives should put you at 47% or so.
If that's true, and I believe it will be, *snip* |
Toggles = 18.50%
Passives = 7.50%
Both of these are the exact increase expected from the scrapper/brute numbers based on the tank mod numbers (scrapper number divided by 0.75).
Enhancing we get:
Toggles (18.5 * 1.6) = 29.6%
Passives (7.5 * 1.6) = 12.0%
Total = 41.6%
So, that doesn't quite get you there. Adding 1-slotted CJ (3.14%) still leaves you slightly short, too.
Or, as I suggested above, you could save yourself 6-slots (2 each from 3 slotting the passives) and get there with 1 more slot (Stdfst in Tough) saving 5 slots to work on those other things you mentioned.
edit to add: My current plan has roughly 2730 HP with all accolades.
edit2: Fully enhancing the 3 toggles plus the 1 slotted passives will also more than max out DDR, too, which is sweet.
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I got there with hover on Beta, though my mind was on the now absent Street Justice at the time and the Super Strength substitute conflicted with flying. |
Originally Posted by Caulderone
On Beta:
Toggles = 18.50% Passives = 7.50% Both of these are the exact increase expected from the scrapper/brute numbers based on the tank mod numbers (scrapper number divided by 0.75). Enhancing we get: Toggles (18.5 * 1.6) = 29.6% Passives (7.5 * 1.6) = 12.0% Total = 41.6% So, that doesn't quite get you there. Adding 1-slotted CJ (3.14%) still leaves you slightly short, too. Or, as I suggested above, you could save yourself 6-slots (2 each from 3 slotting the passives) and get there with 1 more slot (Stdfst in Tough) saving 5 slots to work on those other things you mentioned. edit to add: My current plan has roughly 2730 HP with all accolades. edit2: Fully enhancing the 3 toggles plus the 1 slotted passives will also more than max out DDR, too, which is sweet. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Nope. It's knockback. Phooey.
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Originally Posted by cohRock
20) Fighting:Kick (I believe it 2ndy effect is knockdown not knockback.)
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-- Rich
* Thresholds CoH: What to do When
* My Comics Collection
Quote:
Personally I don't think it is. There's so many buffs flying around on the trials that I've hit the defense hardcap without running any of my defense toggles. The 59%, at this point, applies to so little of the content in the game that I think it's much more effective to concentrate on things that do apply over a wider area, like regen, damage, HP, etc.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
I've been leaning on an DM/SR scrapper for awhile, and while its a different animal then a SR tanker, is the 59% incarnate softcap that useful? I know only DE enemys in tip missions require it, and they throw down the quartz pets that make defense pretty much not exist anyways.
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My guy is 30 now, and I am finding him to be an extremely robust guy. While he is not a stone tank, he could very well be the next best thing.
I haven't followed either of the above progressions. Here is the build as he has actually chosen it:
1) Shadow Punch, Focused Fighting
2) Smite
4) Focused Senses
6) Practiced Brawler
8) Leaping:Combat Jumping
10) Shadow Maul
12) Agile
14) Dodge
16) Evasion (includes taunt aura)
18) Siphon Life
20) Fighting:Kick (as someone suggested above, should have been Boxing.)
22) Fighting:Tough
24) Taunt
26) Quickness
28) Lucky
30) Soul Drain
He'll probably take Fighting:Weave at 32. As of level 30 all defensive toggles are 4-slotted with an end reduction and 3 defense SOs. The passives are single slotted. This gives him positional defenses very near 44%. At 31, he will have Tough 4-slotted with end reduction, SteadfastProtection:Res/Def, and two resist SOs (currently just one of the SOs). His rep is set to +1 foes and *2 foe count. He can surround himself with 2 or 3 groups of foes and watch them beat away at him. When his scaling resist (finally -- it takes a while) kicks in he sure feels like a stoner.
My question is, do defense debuffs subtract from the top or bottom? By this I mean if Weave brings him above 45, but defense is capped at 45, what is the effect of a defense debuff? Is defense subtracted from the capped 45%, or is it subtracted from the bottom, meaning the extra defense from Weave is actually helping significantly?
Assuming I do take Weave at 32, the remaining build is likely to be:
32) Fighting:Weave
35) Dark Consumption (the earliest I can take it 
)
38) Midnight Grasp
41) Energy Mastery:Conserve Power
44) Energy Mastery:Physical Perfection
47) Recall Friend (?)
49) Hasten (?)
Any more comments?
-- Rich
* Thresholds CoH: What to do When
* My Comics Collection
I disagree with the power advice given so far. Maneuvers and tactics will work out better than weave and elude (you really,really dont need elude). Weave is nice if you are shooting for 59% defense but on almost every trial team you get on, you will have some kind of team buffs that will get you there anyway.
Cardiac or Spiritual will be solid choices for your alpha slot. Nerve is generally useless unless you build for it (1 slot powers with def/end IOs). As for lore - phantoms will give you AB, which is solid regen and +rech. With interface, due to having a lack of aoe powers, I'd go with the -tohit and -regen effects.
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
Lohenien,
While I do miss Tactics, I cannot say the original advice given has proven itself wrong. My tank is very robust, and is well equipped to battle lead any team. I agree with you that Elude is overkill for this build, though. Thanks for the incarnate advice, btw.
-- Rich
* Thresholds CoH: What to do When
* My Comics Collection
Quote:
I'm not totally sure I understand the question but hey, this is the internet, I can still try to answer!|
Originally Posted by cohRock
My question is, do defense debuffs subtract from the top or bottom? By this I mean if Weave brings him above 45, but defense is capped at 45, what is the effect of a defense debuff? Is defense subtracted from the capped 45%, or is it subtracted from the bottom, meaning the extra defense from Weave is actually helping significantly?
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A defense debuff will subtract from your total defense. So if you get hit with a 5% defense debuff and your total melee defense is 48% then your resulting defense will be 43%. The extra defense above 45% is counted.
Note that SR has awesome defense debuff resistance. Right up to around 95% at level 50. That means that for SR defense debuffs have to be significant and stacking to really have a large effect.
Hope that helps!
Thanks, Dromio. You answered my question, even if it were awkwardly asked.
Metal Mettle is live on Infinity now. He's reached level 20. Since he is in active SG and almost always teams, he went with a build front-loaded with protection. All of my guys take Recall Friend at a relatively low level, so he sacrificed Smite to fit it in.
1) Shadow Punch
1) Focused Fighting
2) Focused Senses
4) Shadow Maul
6) Practiced Brawler
8) Leaping:Combat Jumping
10) Fighting:Boxing
12) Agile
14) Dodge
16) Evasion (includes taunt aura)
18) Siphon Life
20) Taunt
The Stamina and Health inherent powers have been 3-slotted. He also has 3 veteran attacks.
The remaining build is likely to be:
22) Fighting:Tough (delayed for SOs in Stamina)
24) Recall Friend
26) Quickness
28) Lucky
30) Soul Drain
32) Fighting:Weave
35) Dark Consumption
38) Midnight Grasp
41) Energy Mastery:Conserve Power
44) Energy Mastery:Physical Perfection
47) Hasten
49) Super Jump, Super Speed, or ?
What would you take at 49? Any other suggestions?
-- Rich
* Thresholds CoH: What to do When
* My Comics Collection
I'm experimenting with a Super-Reflexes/Dark_Melee tank on the Beta Server. He just made level 12 and upgraded to DOs. I like the combo so far. DM was specifically chosen because it seems to augment SR well. It offers both a self-heal attack and an endurance-gain AoE attack. Additionally, all of its attacks have a -toHit secondary effect, which effectively adds to his defense.
Unfortunately MIDs does not yet support SR for tanks, so I'll just type out the planned build:
1) Shadow Punch, Focused Fighting
2) Smite
4) Focused Senses
6) Practiced Brawler
8) Leaping:Combat Jumping
10) Shadow Maul
12) Agile
14) Dodge
16) Evasion (includes taunt aura)
18) Siphon Life
20) Leadership:Maneuvers
22) Leadership:Tactics
24) Fighting:Kick
26) Fighting:Tough
28) Dark Consumption
30) Soul Drain
32) Midnight Grasp
35) Quickness
38) Lucky
41) Energy Mastery:Conserve Power
44) Energy Mastery:Physical Perfection
47) Elude
49) Taunt
All my other tanks get Taunt soon after gaining mez protection, but squeezing in both the Leadership and Fighting pools makes the build quite tight. I wish I could skip Shadow Punch -- having both it and Kick seems a waste.
So far as invention sets, he'll be getting 2 Steadfast Protection enhancments in Tough (End/Resist and Resist/Defense). He'll also "4x4" Gift of Ancients; that is, the 4 defensive toggles will have 4 slots each, all containing:
* Defense/Endurance
* Defense/Endurance/Recharge (bonus: 2% recovery, 8% total)
* Defense (bonus: 2.5% fire resistance, 10% total)
* Defense/Run_Speed (bonus: 1.8% gain to max endurance, 7.2% total)
With the extra recovery and endurance from GoA, plus extra endurance of Atlas Medallion, he may not need to use Energy Mastery Ancillary pool. Earth Mastery with Salt Crystals and Quick Sand might be interesting alternative.
I'd appreciate any feedback. Thanks.
-- Rich
* Thresholds CoH: What to do When
* My Comics Collection