I could say the same about /MM, and guess what's the most popular blaster secondary at the moment?
Close range blasters simply do more damage than long range blasters, and the squishiness can be made manageable with teammates, inspirations, IO's, and more.
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Fire Manipulation has a total of 6 PBAoE powers.
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It sure does...And; If we could pair Dark Manipulation with Fire Manipulation... wow. But we can't. You have to pair the Soul Drain PBAOE attack which is going to agro every stinking mob in a group with your mostly ranged primary attacks--depending on your primary that could be mostly single target. If you're going Dark/Dark blaster then the only other PBAOE attack you have is your nuke. Same for Fire/Dark. What about your snipes? Never going to get in a snipe after soul drain unless you have a tank. Cone shaped attacks? Going to miss half your targets in a big group because you'll be too close.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Fire Manipulation has a total of 6 PBAoE powers.
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Look, I don't have a problem with blapping. Pair Radiation Primary with Fire secondary and again... wow. Aim + Build-up + Irradiate + Combustion + Fire Sword Circle + Burn Patch + Hot Feet = lots of dead mobs in a hurry especially if you have a controller to lock them down or a Tank to get their attention.
But Soul Drain does not play nice with ranged primaries where as build-up does. It also does not play nice with any of the melee attacks in its own set since they are single target or narrow cone.
I would rather see Soul Drain dropped for Build-up or made into a Targeted AOE.
i personally am gonna reroll me rad/fire blaster as rad/dark, the -tohit coupled with the awesome powers in dark melee will be excellent dmg
I'm glad they did something different a lot of the powers ATs are getting are just rehashings of things already in the game, Blasters get something new and unique and from what I have seen is that it can give a better benefit than Build up can and lasts longer. You can almost make it perma and for 30 seconds you get a large damage boost.
If you take the power and replace it with buildup I don't see any reason to take it. Mental is better, Energy is more proactive, Fire has more damage, Ice has utility.
yes, it's a PBAoE, but my plan is to use it on one pack after I've unload a bit from ranged, so that the buffs are going when I hit the next group. Lasting 30 seconds is a huge boost, and if you have enough recharge to make it almost perma.... *drool*
Hate to say it... But look at the set. They're not going to replace soul drain with bu because it's intended to be a melee/pbaoe set. I want to see the set kept the way it is because I like soul drain. If you don't like to be in melee then I'm sorry to say this set isn't for you.
I can see Soul Drain being handy even without PBAoEs, you just have to have good mobility. Jump in, fire off a Soul Drain, then jump back out and fire off cones and targeted AoEs for huge damage... Fire/Dark, Rad/Dark, or even Ice/Dark will be interesting (since Sould Drain lasts 30 seconds it will be more useful with rain powers than Build Up is). I can also see Archery, AR, or DP using it to boost their crashless nukes and following attacks though Build Up does that pretty well too (probably better in Archery's case)...
I'd say Rad/Dark will probably be the best pairing since Rad has a PBAoE, but Fire/Dark will also be nasty and I'm actually thinking Ice/Dark will be quite good.
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I am so far at least completely underwhelmed by the -ToHit of the Blaster Darks sets. Maybe I need to use them more and learn them better, but so far: meh.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i personally am gonna reroll me rad/fire blaster as rad/dark, the -tohit coupled with the awesome powers in dark melee will be excellent dmg
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Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
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I think after triggering Soul Drain followed by Rain of Arrows you're likely to be dead before your Rain of Arrows hits... unless you have a tank holding their attention or a controller locking them down. DP might have a better chance.|
Originally Posted by StrykerX
I can see Soul Drain being handy even without PBAoEs, you just have to have good mobility. Jump in, fire off a Soul Drain, then jump back out and fire off cones and targeted AoEs for huge damage... Fire/Dark, Rad/Dark, or even Ice/Dark will be interesting (since Sould Drain lasts 30 seconds it will be more useful with rain powers than Build Up is). I can also see Archery, AR, or DP using it to boost their crashless nukes and following attacks though Build Up does that pretty well too (probably better in Archery's case)...
I'd say Rad/Dark will probably be the best pairing since Rad has a PBAoE, but Fire/Dark will also be nasty and I'm actually thinking Ice/Dark will be quite good. |
The problem is the agro generated by the Soul Drain which makes you the target of every mob in a group... even if you're bouncing about. Build-up generates no Agro.
I disagree with your assessment of Rad/Dark. There's not enough AOE support for it. You're stuck with single target and cone attacks. Rad doesn't have enough AOE attacks... and it's ranged AOE Neutron Bomb is way way way too slow triggering off. It's got at least a 3 or 4 second delivery time. You could do Soul Drain--> Irradiate but Irradiate doesn't do that much damage and you need a follower to Irradiate which will do big damage. Soul Drain and Irradiate are both slow starters... which means you're going to get pounded before any damage actually hits your targets.
I don't know about you, but my blasters aren't nearly squishy enough to die to a full group of mobs as quick as you seem to be thinking.
Soul drain will be amazing on melee blasters, which you can very easily pull off with capping lethal/smash defense, and chewing inspirations.
Oh, and Neutron bomb, takes 1.848 seconds to animate... Yea the giant ball takes awhile to travel, but its still boosted by the damage of Soul drain, allowing you plenty of time to move around. Irradiate takes 1.32 seconds to animate, which is about half the time Fire sword Circle and combustion take to animate. Yeah, the DoT takes 4.6 seconds to run its course, but again, its still being fueled by Soul drain.
You could also Soul drain -> PBAoE nuke -> blue -> Dark consumption (i think /dark gets that) then and use the buff from Soul drain to keep throwing out high damage attacks...
While BU doesn't build any aggro, it only lasts 10 seconds. Soul Drain, lasts 30 seconds, and can reach the numbers you could get from BU.. and you can even perma it (assuming you keep it at the target cap)
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Not if the tank's doing his job. |
Originally Posted by Cptn_Courageous
I disagree with your assessment of Rad/Dark. There's not enough AOE support for it. You're stuck with single target and cone attacks. Rad doesn't have enough AOE attacks... and it's ranged AOE Neutron Bomb is way way way too slow triggering off. It's got at least a 3 or 4 second delivery time. You could do Soul Drain--> Irradiate but Irradiate doesn't do that much damage and you need a follower to Irradiate which will do big damage. Soul Drain and Irradiate are both slow starters... which means you're going to get pounded before any damage actually hits your targets.
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Aggro doesn't really matter solo... you're going to get all of it regardless unless you pull, and if you're pulling you probably aren't going to be playing a secondary designed for being surrounded by enemies. With a team that has decent aggro control it shouldn't be any harder to use Soul Drain -> Irradiate -> Neutron Bomb than it is to jump in on a Fire/Fire and or Rad/Fire and fire off multiple AoEs while standing right in the middle of the spawn. You'll need lots of IOs or a good team to make it work well, but that's true for getting the most out of a Blaster in general. I suspect a S/L/E softcapped Fire/Dark or Rad/Dark will be a monster... though I'm not sure whether the +damage will make up for losing the extra PBAoEs in /Fire.
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That's why you jump in, fire Soul Drain, and jump back out before you fire your cones. Where does it say you're not allowed to move after you use your Build Up power? If it's like every other version of Soul Drain, the buff will be active for 30 seconds instead of the more usual 10 seconds for Build Up powers, that leaves you PLENTY of time to line up a couple cones. |
Originally Posted by Cptn_Courageous
Cone shaped attacks? Going to miss half your targets in a big group because you'll be too close.
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| I would rather see Soul Drain dropped for Build-up or made into a Targeted AOE. |
I don't think all Blaster secondaries should be exactly the same. Soul Drain being available in a blaster secondary is part of what is going to make Dark Manipulation unique among them.
What is going to end up happening is that Dark Blast will end up not being the best synergistic pairing with Dark Manipulation, even though it matches the theme.
You could either do what I suggested above and jump back out of the spawn to line up your cones, or you could pair it with something like Rad Blast that has a PBAoE and a Targeted AoE in it (you can use those in melee as well, you know. I frequently forget that Fireball is a ranged power)
Soul Drain in a blaster secondary is a neat addition, and it gives people more playstyle options. Changing powers to what YOU would prefer them to be in order to suit ONE playstyle better would just remove the option to play your blaster differently.
Different people play their characters in different ways. Did it occur to you that a Soul Drain-equipped blaster on a team with a decent tank will be an absolute monster? You won't get agro from the piddly amount of damage Soul Drain does, and the tank will keep them clumped together for ease of lining up cones.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I think it will quickly be relegated to rarely played. Non IO'd blasters will find Soul Drain a death trap. I think it will only really be reliable end game on fully IO'd out blasters, or on teams with strong aggro control. Even then, outside a few sets, it wont mesh very well most blasters attacks. Everyone seems to like to talk about melee blasters, but aside from a challenge or oddity approach, they simply cannot compete with scraps or brutes, for either survivability or damage close in. I love blasters, but they have painted them into a corner on what they allow in the secondaries, and I dont think any of the choices will be appealing.
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Claws has it nailed magnificently.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
That's why you jump in, fire Soul Drain, and jump back out before you fire your cones. Where does it say you're not allowed to move after you use your Build Up power? If it's like every other version of Soul Drain, the buff will be active for 30 seconds instead of the more usual 10 seconds for Build Up powers, that leaves you PLENTY of time to line up a couple cones.
I strongly disagree. I don't think all Blaster secondaries should be exactly the same. Soul Drain being available in a blaster secondary is part of what is going to make Dark Manipulation unique among them. What is going to end up happening is that Dark Blast will end up not being the best synergistic pairing with Dark Manipulation, even though it matches the theme. You could either do what I suggested above and jump back out of the spawn to line up your cones, or you could pair it with something like Rad Blast that has a PBAoE and a Targeted AoE in it (you can use those in melee as well, you know. I frequently forget that Fireball is a ranged power) Soul Drain in a blaster secondary is a neat addition, and it gives people more playstyle options. Changing powers to what YOU would prefer them to be in order to suit ONE playstyle better would just remove the option to play your blaster differently. Different people play their characters in different ways. Did it occur to you that a Soul Drain-equipped blaster on a team with a decent tank will be an absolute monster? You won't get agro from the piddly amount of damage Soul Drain does, and the tank will keep them clumped together for ease of lining up cones. |
It isn't much differant than taking the same power in APP for defenders now. And with all the -to hit in the set, the OP is fear is probably overstated.
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First and foremost: I also dislike the fact that Soul Drain is remaining a PBAoE, like its counterparts throughout the game. As someone who plays ranged almost exclusively, Dark Manipulation's power lineup was a severe disappointment.
That being said, I completely understand why Soul Drain is remaining as a PBAoE: Dark Manipulation is a very close-range set. I appreciate the Devs' efforts toward making further Blaster secondary sets more unique when compared with one another, despite disagreeing with or disliking this particular instance. While I wish the two impending Dark sets had more synergy with each other, given their themed similarities and matching secondary effects, they are not the first to suffer from that "problem." The two Fire sets contrast with each other as well.
When Issue 21 goes live, I will still attempt a Dark/Dark Blaster. I will probably end up abusing Penumbral Grasp, skipping most of the melee attacks (as well as Dark Pit because I have always thought it sucked), and saving Soul Drain and Dark Consumption for teaming. If it works, hooray! If not, well, I have other alts...
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Well said. |
Originally Posted by Winterminal
First and foremost: I also dislike the fact that Soul Drain is remaining a PBAoE, like its counterparts throughout the game. As someone who plays ranged almost exclusively, Dark Manipulation's power lineup was a severe disappointment.
That being said, I completely understand why Soul Drain is remaining as a PBAoE: Dark Manipulation is a very close-range set. I appreciate the Devs' efforts toward making further Blaster secondary sets more unique when compared with one another, despite disagreeing with or disliking this particular instance. While I wish the two impending Dark sets had more synergy with each other, given their themed similarities and matching secondary effects, they are not the first to suffer from that "problem." The two Fire sets contrast with each other as well. When Issue 21 goes live, I will still attempt a Dark/Dark Blaster. I will probably end up abusing Penumbral Grasp, skipping most of the melee attacks (as well as Dark Pit because I have always thought it sucked), and saving Soul Drain and Dark Consumption for teaming. If it works, hooray! If not, well, I have other alts... |
Personally disliking something is not a good reason to demand it be changed.
I don't think Soul Drain remaining a PBAoE is going to be a major problem. Itwill be particularly useful on teams where there is some means of making sure you hit themax number of targets with it, as well as some way to keep everything from turning you into a grease spot when you use it.
I will be adapting the same kind of playstyle I developed with my Fire/Fire blapper. Frenetically jumping in and out of melee using PBAoEs on the fly.
Also, I think everyone has forgotten here that the thematically paired set will be coming with an AoE immobilize, which will serve the crucial role of stopping things from chasing you when you jump out of melee after using Soul Drain. There are also enough to-hit debuffs in both sets that you only need a moderate amount of defense to gain decent survivability.
I still think the drawbacks of Soul Drain are being blown out of proportion, especially when the means of avoiding those drawbacks are being given to us in the same sets Soul Drain is coming with.
That said, you can agree with the inclusion of the power, or disagree, as long as you accept that the devs do not design powersets that can only be played one way or they will not function.
Also: Dark/Dark/Soul blaster: Tenebrous Tentacles for immobilizy goodness, Dark Pit for the first bit of stun, and if you took Soul Mastery you have Oppressive Gloom available, which will stack with Dark Pit to ensure that even bosses are helpless and easy Soul Drain fodder. Add to that the fact that you can have a second AoE immobilize and you can immobilize the bosses as well. Plenty of tools to let you Soul Drain stuff with impunity.
And with the changes to APPs....you can do all this by level 38.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Dark Manipulation has the potential to let Blasters do a lot of damage. The risk is to go melee and use pbaoe.
I think it's good that they made DM different than other secondaries.
I just don't think Dark/Dark fits well. Dark Blast not only has two cones but one of them is a serious aoe knock back.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I am going to try something crazy, I am going to take the new super leap power and use it as an alpha strike then soul drain. 
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Personally I still think they should've put Cloak of Darkness (The stealth power from dark armor) in the secondary. It'd help with taking less damage on the way into a spawn to use soul drain.
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I'll be making a Fire/Dark/Soul. I'm very excited for the combination of great AoE, ST and utility along with the Dark Pit/Opp Gloom combo. It will still have the advantage of using Soul Tentacles to immob groups + Nightfall to add another cone on top of Fire Breath.
Soul drain is one of the best "build up" powers available. Obviously that comes at a price. If you can't deal with the drawback, then the set is not for you.
I think /dark is a great blapper type of set. It might be the best actually. The animation time on Soul Drain is long for a blaster, but I think it can be dealt with.
As we know, blasters are at their best (usually) when attacking from a distance.
I'll get back to that point a bit later, but just keep that thought.
I recently made up a blaster on the Beta Server and decided to try out the Dark Manipulation secondary (one of the latest power proliferations). I was pretty excited because... well, Smite and Shadow Maul are really great melee powers and there are some other pretty cool powers in it too. The initial immobilze Penenumbral Grasp is very nice... so as I was going along I had a good feeling about the set... until...
As I was tooling along looking at the power set and planning ahead I suddenly noticed that Soul Drain--which functions as the set's 'Build-up'-- is PBAOE.
PBAOE!
Now that wouldn't be a problem except that unless you have a primary power set that focuses on PBAOE attacks you're not going to be able to use this power to boost your Alpha Strike let alone any ranged damage like snipes. Bottom line is this power is nearly useless to a ranged blaster and of limited use to a blapper.
So why is this not a Targeted AOE for blasters? Does anyone else think the PBAOE is essentialy a death sentence in a lot of situations for squishy blasters --especially soloing?
This should certainly be looked at.