Too many tankmages.

I think it's inane to argue about the homogenization of CoH when the 800 pound gorilla is showing us how that is done in spades. At this point, while the power creep in CoH has gotten pretty high (and as Arcana mentions, we're still not at "Dumpster Puppy" levels), the uniqueness in builds, sets, and ATs is really approaching an all time high. There are quite a few outliers, but each AT brings something interesting and unique to the field with a few exceptions. Even the "Terrible" ATs (Stalkers/PBs) play differently to most other ATs in the game, with a few exceptions to the rule.

Likewise, I think the claim of "It's too easy" is definitely in the eye of the beholder. My main, the brute in my signature, is purpled and slotted out so hard she shines from space. This is a brute that has several thousand hours of gameplay in, has existed pretty much as long as CoV has, and I've tried to do as much as I could with her build wise and challenge wise. She's DM/Invuln and is so kitted out, she's soloed a Sutter TF, can solo +4/x8 Rikti (and did so in a god awful Dr. Q), cleaves through Carnies, has T4 incarnate stuff, and I'm more then willing to bet that my VEAT friend and I can just flat out duo Lambda. She was built to be as ungodly durable as possible and I achieved that goal in giant flaming letters...through the use of years worth of build refining, inspiration use, timer use, and skill. The game is "easy" by most people's definition with her, but I'm also willing to bet that if I passed the controls off to a friend, they wouldn't be able to pull the feats off that I have done.

By the same token, the three other 50s I've even bothered to start incarnating on are wildly different roles and are nowhere near that pimped out, but perfectly acceptable regardless. My MA/Fire scrapper always jumped into trial groups at +0 with NO enhancements slotted and walked away just fine because of insp usage (or RotP). She's soft capped and has dropped 3k crits during a BAF, but is still fully capable of pulling AVs and tanking Keyes (and regularly does both). Her build is bargain basement at best, with the KCs being the biggest cost, and she gets roflstomped in any x8 content that I can't kill with my alpha or deals fire damage (I don't even bother fighting carnies). My Sonic/Sonic corr runs a soft capped build that, to my memory, was cheap as heck and still pulls AVs and tanks them (again, momentarily with insps) because I'm sick and tired of all the scared tanks/brutes. She gets utterly stomped in anything x8, period. Finally, my freshly minted Elec/Fire dom runs x4 with bosses on, using basic enhancements, and does so with quite a bit of fun times, regardless of the challenge. She can't hit the broad side of a wall in trials (yet).

The problem isn't overpowered builds, easy content, or the like, it's complacency and the handful of people in the high end simply dragging or flexing their power to help people on the low end move up. I saw a BAF fail yesterday because of too many prisoners escaping and the league that was chock full of melee was blaming the doms/controllers, despite both north and south chokepoints patched to hell and back; it was the LTs that got through. I've seen more "Wait until 18 minute" Lambda runs fail then succeed, mostly because people work and operate under the assumption that either EVERYONE is at the same level as them, or they're being carried by one of the "Shining Stars" of the uber class. It's gotten so bad that both my sonic/sonic corr AND my MA/Fire scrapper tanked and dragged Keyes around through ridiculous insp juggling and buffs while a GRANITE TANK sat within eye range hitting some Warworks. Because that tank didn't care, someone else always did it.

Someone else's problem is a huge factor in this game, and was mentioned, it's the PEOPLE that bring difficulty (or lack thereof) to the game more then anything else. The game IS hard and CAN be challenging, but people are more than likely to shift the blame and pitch a fit if they're not immediately winning. Worse yet, because the good players are genuinely willing and able to pick up the slack (this is what makes them good players), self improvement is a trait that is near impossible to find in this game due to an absolute and complete lack of a metric to judge it on.

I for one would love to see things like damage meters introduced into the game not for an elitist desire, but so people can look at the numbers and go "Wow, I did something wrong," nevermind the volumes of information we can get as far as set performance goes. It infuriates me to see fire blasters that literally just spam flares and fire blast, then complain about how hard the game is.

Create your own difficulty and challenge, it's possible to do so regardless of your build and AT as long as you flex your creativity. It goes a long way.

[QUOTE=Biospark;3821283
But.... You spent alot of time mentioning some of your choices and I would bet any amount of money that a DM/Inv with hundreds of hours and billions of Influence spent will outperform my Emp/Electric with hundreds of hours and billions of Influence spent as far as what they can do solo. Even being played by the same player with the same level of build and solo-competance. Money, Time and Skill matter, but there ARE things that fall into the realm of the game's inherent constraints.

I am not trying to start a fight, just that my observations have shown me that folks who mainly play "self-sufficient" ATs like Scrappers, Tankers and Brutes fail to realize that what they can do is not the same as other ATs. And its not ONLY about skill.[/QUOTE]

In the hope of a fun conversation, I will agree about the discrepancy of self sufficient ATs vs non. The thing is, the EMP/Electric with an equal amount of tweaking or build may likely end up being a much better force multiplier to the team: Forting the entire group, potentially keeping two ABs up (or one AB permanent) on top of both auras and whatever other build/options they want. It's extremely hard to qualify the contribution that a fully forted group gives, on top of AB, but odds are in a team setting that it's as much/more as my brute.

The real problem comes with the second half of that mix: Electric Blast. Let's be honest, it's pretty terrible all around. Melee groups have equally bad stinkers: Broad Sword, Pre fix Energy Aura, and a few other arguable ones depending on your goal or intent. The game as a whole is balanced around "Ability to solo" but doesn't generally care about balance beyond that. It's only when massive, world splitting differences show up (Willpower completely invalidated Invuln, Invuln was buffed. VEATs completely invalidated Stalker, Stalker was buffed, etc) that devs tend to bother to even bring stuff down from on high. Even then, it's more likely that they buff the terrible stuff then ever consider nerfing the overpowered stuff, which in turn creates power creep.

This is why blasters feel like they're falling behind the curve, why some sets seem to be comically outperforming everything else, and why some people just feel like there's an oversaturation of tank magi: A power arms race. Why bother playing SR or EA when SD is likely gonna be better in every way? Why bother with Sonic Resonance or Force Field when Cold blows both out of the water? Concept and whatnot notwithstanding, it gets really, really aggravating when you play powerset X and someone else plays powerset X+Y.

You want to fix tank magi and power creep, strive to fix the power sets. This has to include nerfs as well as buffs to bring things down to a good middle ground where everyone can contribute equally. It also requires tools such as DPS meters and whatnot to get true tests by people who enjoy doing so to create benchmarks for everyone, BEYOND pylon tests. Stuff like cold has no business dropping more -res then sonic, a set that specializes -res and nothing else, on top of the massive debuffs and buffs it provides. Scrappers fought tooth and nail to get brute damage and fury tweaked down slightly because at the high end, brutes were more survivable and did as much or more damage then scrappers. I find it hard to believe that blasters or stalkers (Being less survivable then scrappers) are going to cause scrappers to get the same treatment, or even buffed upwards.

Most sets and ATs can and do excel beyond belief at their job with an equally tuned and insanely expensive build as a DM/Inv Brute. Those that can't (PBs, I'm looking at you as the poster child) need to get brought into line with the other sets and those at the top of the totem pole need to get brought down. My sonic/sonic runs something like 8 toggles at 2.25 end consumption (with a cardiac) or something insane along those lines while maintaining a seamless attack chain and keeping everyone buffed, entirely due to sets.

Balance needs to be achieved. Until then, incarnate slots are only going to show the ridiculous discrepancy between powerful sets and the PBs and equivalent sets get left in the dust.

Add a new Incarnate level of difficulty above +4. Add un-mezzable runners that pull in other spawns ect.

Gee, it's sooooo bad you guys should just give me yer stuff and cancel your accounts.

The problem, IMHO, is as much as some hate things becoming homogenous, most people (yes I know you aren't one of them), like things to be the same. Ask any advertising person, and see how quickly the powers that be are quick to emulate (hell out and out copy) a success. Do I want a Defender that can support a team, blast, oh and now has mez protection and a blaster level nuke? Hell, yes I do. And to be honest so would almost everyone else. A lot of people like coke-cola, a lot of people like pepsi-cola. I dislike the way the path CoH has chosen, but I will still be playing it until they turn the lights out.

Why? The game does promote, being the same. FOTM builds and how many SS/FA brute farmer threads are out there, bear this out. However and this is the why I will always be a paying and playing customer is, I don't have to be this way. I don't play the incarnate system and politely tell people that ask, no thank you. If I want to try and solo a force fielding/electric blaster, I can. I have a SS/FA brutes, and lots of other FOTM builds, because I wanted one. I may someday try the incarnate system, hell I might tomorrow, (I drink an awful lot of coke and pepsi). I don't have to, and until they force a path down my throat for the majority of the content in this outstanding addiction I call a game, then I will always be bleating member of the flock, that just happens to stray a lot. And to be honest deep down wouldn't it be fun to have a tankmage?

I liked it better when I was the only one who was overpowered.

Great discussion everyone!

I think my dissatisfaction with homogenization stems not from everyone becoming powerful, but instead the lessening of weaknesses that ATs initially were designed to have. A blaster could be super powerful at damage and I wouldn't mind because I know that the blaster's outrageous damage is balanced with less survivability in the face of incoming damage. It's the elimination of these inherent weaknesses using methods such as boosting defense to SR levels (looking at blasters with S/L/R capped). I can appreciate players who use skill (jousting, etc) to survive on blasters because such means are within the scope and boundaries inherent in the AT design. But allowing blasters to shore up and indeed circumvent their weaknesses simply by buying magical items that give them the same defensive prowess as other traditionally sturdier ATs is ridiculous in my opinion.

At that point, homogenization rears its ugly head because it's not that the game is too easy, its that no one has any interesting and unique weaknesses to contrast with their unique strengths. Dealing with an AT's weaknesses is just as fun as maximizing the AT's strength. Consider only the differences in strength and you're only enjoying half the AT. That's what inspirations were designed to do. Enhance strengths or eliminate weaknesses. But those are designed to be temporary. IOs are like permanent inspirations.

Another point unrelated to homogenization is that all of these critical points do not mean that I think this game is completely homogenized and terrible. It's just the trend that I'm speaking of.

So this is just a nerf that guy cause he is better than me thread. ok, carry on.