What primaries are better on a Controller vs a Dominator?

Just as the title says.

Discuss.

I definitely think Mind Control is a whole lot better on Dominator by a very large margin.

Fire Control is better on Controller because of Hot Feet and the fact that controller has powers to babysit fire imps and make fire do a lot more damage.

I don't think they are directly comparable. The question is kind of like "Which secondaries are better on a Controller versus a Mastermind?" The answer is it depends, because they use their powers to different ends.

That's not to say one or the other isn't better if you specify specific requirements (e.g. ability to farm, ability to solo archvillains, etc). Generally speaking though, any discussion about which "primary" is better is misleading, because characters are only 50% defined by it.

In any case all of the control sets in this game, barring perhaps Gravity, are so strong that even the "weakest" is probably still enough to survive on.

If you solo a lot, Ice, Earth and Electric Control are better on a Dom because Doms bring their own damage.

No question -- Gravity is better on a controller. The slow single target attacks work better with Containment and debuffs. Propel with containment hits pretty hard, while it is pretty skippable on a Dom. Gravity pretty much stinks on a Dom.

I would say Fire is generally better on a controller -- Fire/Kin and Fire/Rad especially. The Buff and debuffs help Fire do more damage and makes the character more survivable.

Illusion, of course.

Other than that, I think it depends on what you want out of your character. If you are looking for damage, then Dominators will generally do better, obviously, since their secondary is entirely devoted to damage. Containment will only help on powers that do a lot of damage (or fast damage), and will rarely provide more damage than a Dom's secondary. However, if you are looking for a great, all purpose team controller, then Earth/Rad can't be beat with its AoE controls, debuffs and buffs. Ice/Rad is pretty darn nice, too. But neither one will do much damage.

The buffs and debuffs from a controller's secondary can be a force multiplier for a team. If you want to kill AVs faster, the anything/Cold will add those debuffs to make it work great. The Control+Buff/Debuff combo helps a team kill faster AND in greater safety.

In terms of CONTROL, permadom Dominators will probably always take the cake over controllers.

That takes the biggest load off of your mind. You can't out-control them, and most controllers can't out-damage them.

What's left?

SECONDARIES (and Illusion)! Treat your controller like a support character and save the lives of all your team mates. Easy, and EVERYBODY else is running a damage build these days, right?

Also, Elec control does VERY well when paired with /Cold or /Rad.

Fire/Kin controllers are monsters.

Illusion control is one of the most game altering sets out there, and what you can do with Perma PA...

I have to second that Gravity is really, really lackluster on a Dominator. The only real draw to the set for a Controller is that its immobilize doesn't block Knockbacks, if you want to be able to KB immobilized targets (with, say, Tornado), however that also prevents Grav/Storm from being able to use the immob/tornado combo for a damage dealing tool.

I will however, throw a dissenting voice into the mix on Fire being a poor Dominator choice - it can work out beautifully in my opinion, especially Fire/Earth, for a little bit of extra soft and hard CC, as well as the delight of Hot Feet + Mud Pots.

I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30))
Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.

I've recently levelled both a Plant/Storm controller (50) and a Plant/Psi dominator (40). Given the primaries are the same I feel able to offer some insight.

By the early to mid 30's my controller was a beast able to control and destroy x8 spawns and just got better as I added more AoE damage (tornado, lightning storm etc), IO's and APP's. He is still ridiculously fun and capable at 50.

By contrast I have to force myself to keep going with my dominator sometimes even at level 40. He can solo x8 but regularly dies from mobs who break out of the shorter duration controls and just makes harder work of getting the same job done. I think the main reasons for this are that the dom controls are shorter and doms really struggle for slots until much later (leaving some damage powers under-slotted until later in the game).

Don't get me wrong, I keep going because once IO'd and perma-dom'd I think the dominator playstyle will be really enjoyable so no complaints here.

In summary, controllers control much better early game (and with the right power set combos can even compete damage-wise). Late game their buffs/debuffs can add real value but they fall behind in other areas. Both AT's are hybrids, it's the control/support (controllers) or control/damage (dominators) COMBO that keeps both AT's competitive throughout the game.

Gravity is pretty much universally better on a Troller... it's hardships (primarily animation time in this case) are magnified when compared to a Dom's secondary.

I find Fire and Plant to be better on controllers, mainly because they need the added damage much more. Additionally, fast activating AoE immobs are much more useful on an AT that doesn't need to go in melee ever. Even with something like Hot Feet, you can sit right outside of melee range while still being close enough to hit. Damage from ranged attacks is generally lower, and an AoE immob + the ranged softcap almost always means "softcapped to everything" for a controller.

I consider Mind, Earth, Ice to be better on dominators. Lacking a buff/debuff secondary, the extra control helps that much more. Earth and Ice can just throw down a KD patch and go to town with attacks. For Mind it's more about boss level holds/confuses and that the controller doesn't have many means of setting up AoE containment.

Gravity is better on a Controller but thats like saying this dress looks better on a pig than it does a boar.

I dont see how Fire is better on a controller than a dominator. I have fire controllers and fire dominators and I simply dont see the difference.

The problem with Dominators is once you can achieve permadom you are firing off very very strong controls AND they are recharging a lot faster as well.

I think we need to clarify whether we're talking about "primaries" being better, or actual "characters."

In a purely literal sense, with IOs, the "primaries" are universally better on Dominators. They do more damage, last longer, have higher magnitude, and the PBAoEs are harder to detoggle.

If we're talking about "characters" then it's a very different situation. Which is better: Mind/Icy Assault or Mind/Cold Domination? I took both to 50 and can't answer that question. Mind Control by itself is technically better on the Dominator and the Dominator solos better, but the Controller's controls are "good enough," especially on a character who can stack mezz without alerting enemies. For Task Forces and Raids it's not even sort of in question: everyone wants the Mind/Cold because support is rare and damage is dime a dozen. Generally speaking no one gives a damn what your primary is, you're getting invited for your secondary. They'd often be just as happy if you were a Corruptor (an AT that is approximately as analogous to Controllers as Dominators are).

IMO if you look at either AT and think a primary isn't worth playing on one because it's good on the other, you've sort of missed the point.

I'd say it depends on what you build for.

My grav/elec dom is just painful to play, but i think the bulk of it is that i can't decide how to play her.

My fire/fire/fire dom on the other hand, is a damaging beast, and while she can't out control a controller right now, its hard to say a controller would out damage her. (something about incinerate to the face being a lot better then most anything a fire/kin can dish out)

Elec control, while great at 'control' is very lack luster damage, and very limited mitigation (the sleep is awesome, but the confuse and KB rely on chains, which can be broke way too early) so while an elec/cold controller would be amazing on a team, they don't solo very well, but an elec/* dominator with the added damage from their secondary would be welcomed on teams (again, due to static field) and be able to solo pretty well with the added damaging helping out.

Since this is Containment/overpower vs. Domination:

Mind control wins for dominators. 8 out of 9 powers can be boosted, while mind/ has several powers that do not set up containment at all, and the sleeps give it only once.

Fire control is odd: The containment makes this a better damage primary for controllers, but domination makes flashfire more dependable. Because fire control has so very few controls, and very limited layering, Fire/ dominators can be a lot safer than controllers.

Plant control: See above. Like fire, plant/ puts much of its stock in one unstackable AoE mez. This makes the power safer for a canny dom who can get better mileage out of it when they wish than for a controller who rolls the dice. The higher damage immobilize does far less for the dominator, though, and the pet-centric approach can lean toward the buff/debuff controllers.

Earth/Ice/Electric: The lower damage gives less containment for controllers, but the sets have numerous powers that don't benefit from domination either. Dominators can supplement the lower damage with their secondary, but that has nothing to do with the inherents.

Gravity relies on pets and 'damage' control powers in ways that are less advantageous to dominators, and play to containment.

Nitpick on some statements in previous posts: Sleep powers provide two chances for Containment. You have to chain two attacks closely together. It does not work with every type of attack. It has been confirmed to work with Energy Torrent + Terrify and Psynado + Terrify, but only if they are cast in that order.

We should also clarify that while Mind Control can Dominate on 8 of 9 powers, Hypnosis hits bosses in one shot anyway, Mass Hypnosis has a base 50% chance to Overpower instead of the normal 20%, Levitate more or less ignores boss protections and is on a different protection scheme, and Mass Confusion is an AoE non-aggro power that stacks with another non-aggro single target power. Also, despite the number of powers a Mind Dominator can dominate with, they still end up with about half as many hard AoEs compared to Dominators with hard mezz casts on much more forgiving recharge schemes. Yes, you can Dominate with Terrify, but so what, a Plant Dominator can Confuse things on the same Recharge table.

I know some people love their Mind Dominators, but IMO in terms of measured benefits, Plant, Earth, and Fire benefit much more from Domination than Mind Control does, because a Mag 6 AoE Stun or Confusion on sets that are so confrontational mean more when they pit you into an immediate fight. I can stand around invisibly on Keyes and Lambda and disable huge groups with my Mind troller, while still supporting a team, because stacking magnitude only has meaning up to the point where you overcome protection. It is much more dangerous for my other Controllers to engage enemies directly in that way because they can't wait until everything is confused to engage the enemy. In other words, the Dominator is faster but in terms of control gets more or less the same ultimate result. I kind of feel like a lot of people are sucked in by how often the word "Domination" shows up on screen more than what the effects of that ability actually are.

My Mind Dominator is still a fine enough character, and very powerful, but so completely different from the Controller I don't know how to compare them directly. The Mind Controller certainly can't be directly replaced by another Controller (or Corruptor) so to me it kind of makes the discussion moot; even if Mind Control was "better" on Dominators in the sense that it can solo or act like a Blaster, it can't support, and Mind Controllers can't be directly replaced by another Controller primary, so there isn't anything you can really do with the knowledge. Arguing otherwise brings you to a statement like "Fire Controllers are better than Mind Controllers," which IMO is ridiculous and in need of an encyclopedia's worth of qualifying statements.



EDIT: I should also add that Earth and Fire Dominators tend to be able to punch through powers like Dispersion Bubble and Plant Dominators are able to tag Nemesis despite their Confusion protection. Which sets are "better" or "worse" is extremely difficult to nail down and depends on what factors you consider. Chances are that every single Dom/Controller pair is able to do something on one AT the other AT would struggle with and vice versa. This is a really complicated topic.

EDIT2: Some edits to clarity.

End game, dominators really come into their own now. There is enough incarnate content where you fight a field of bosses, where the AOE hold of a controller is just useless. The AOE hold of a dominator is very useful: you can sling it out on that field of purple bosses and hold them for a bit, where if you were a controller you might as well be looking at your navel if you cast it.

This is why I am not sure about everyone saying gravity control is so much better blah-blah-blah for controllers. Sure, propel is better for controllers and not that hot for dominators BUT gravity distortion field is great for doms (and lets be honest--you took it anyway because you only need to 4-slot it to get 7.5% recharge) and not that hot for controllers. Sure the "up every spawn in a fast team" wormhole is still the go-to power, but it is nice to have a reliable backup as well.

And lift is still good for a dom. 69.7 base on a 1.09 cast timer? This is better than pretty much all of the dominator tier 1 blasts, and should be used to fill out your complete attack chain of lift--medium blast--heavy blast.

I am more with others who say that in early game controller primaries win out but late game dominator primaries universally win out. Late game it is the secondaries as much as anything for why you want a controller and why a typical team would probably prefer a controller.