Quote:
The only ones I consider are the ones who either grew up with, or were directly trained by Batman himself. Alfred, Nightwing, Robin (Tim Drake) and Barbara Gordon. (Yes I know I am forgetting the other two Robins.)|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Curious, do you guys think it's a good thing or a bad thing that the "core" Bat-family grows...or do you think they need to remove some...
For those of you who don't know or have a different list.. I consider the following to be the bat-family... Batman (Bruce Wayne) Alfred Pennyworth Catwoman (Selina Kyle) Nightwing (Dick Grayson) Kathy Kane (Batwoman I) Flamebird (Mary Kane) Oracle (Barbara Gordon) Red Hood (Jason Todd) Red Robin (Tim Drake) Batgirl (Stephanie Brown) Black Bat (Cassandra Cain) Batwoman II (Kate Kane) Robin (Damian Wayne) Proxy (Wendy Harris) Lonnie Machin (Anarky/Moneyspider) Scarlet (Sasha ?) Catgirl (Kitrina Falcone) Holly Robinson (Catwoman II) Misfit (Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe) Black Alice (Lori Zechlin) Zatanna (Zatanna Zatara) Black Canary (Dinah Lance) Lady BlackHawk (Zinda Blake) Lady Shiva James Gordon Huntress (Helena Bertinelli) And that's just the core bat family without taking into account Batman, Inc. or people like Tam Fox, Sasha Bordeaux, Knight, Squire, or a number of others... and ignoring the criminal "bad apple" "black sheep" "weird uncle" side which would include James Jr., Thomas Wayne (Doctor Hurt), Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, and perhaps even Joker. Do you think they should continue to increase the Bat family size (which is hinted at with the girl stealing the Batmobile in Batman: The Dark Kinnght) or do you think they should drop some, which they seem to be doing with the reboot (removing Misfit, Black Alice, Wendy Harris, Stephanie Brown, and a few others)? Also do you think my list of Bat family members a bit too broad? Or just about right? Or too narrow? |
To me, everyone else is just someone they know.
http://www.seventhsanctum.com/index-anim.php
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!
Can't come up with a name? Click the link!
I am in agreement with Nightphall on this, I don't think that most of the people on your extended bat family list need to be there.
Confirmed altaholic with 70+ alts in coh and cov...yes i know thats alot! Playing coh since beta test phase.
This isn't something I've followed that closely since the '90's, and not all that closely then, but I agree with the previous two posters. When I hear a term like "bat-family" (taken from the name of the series' main character) tossed around, I think of it as a core group of protagonists, not "every supporting character in the milieu."
As for the argument over whether this is good or bad, all I can say is that the upshot of every Batman story I ran into during the Dennis O'Neil days, as well as versions of the character featured in the recent Nolan movies, is an outraged, "How DARE anyone but me, the ****ing Batman, do anything about crime?" This may well be at odds with the way the character is portrayed in the comics these days, but it remains the reason I despise the Batman character so intensely.
"Bombarding the CoH/V fora with verbosity since January, 2006"
Djinniman, level 50 inv/fire tanker, on Victory
-and 40 others on various servers
A CoH Comic: Kid Eros in "One Light"
Well...
If we take it as multi generational you have...
It depends on how you look at it...
If we take this from a mythological stand point, Thomas Wayne (Dr Hurt), Thomas Wayne, and Martha Wayne would all be considered "gods" along with several other people I could name but noone would know. These characters would be Family Gods to the Bat Family
Alfred, Leslie, Gordon are the mentor roles like Merlin. Depending on how one reads they are considered mentors that are close that they should be considered family...
Bruce Wayne is the Patriarch
Selina Kyle could be considered the Matriarch
Talia al Ghul, Kathy Kane, Sasha Bordeaux, Zatanna, and Lady Shiva could be considered not part of the direct family but part of close rival houses, perhaps a family divide that happened ages ago type group.
Then we have the First Generation...
Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Helena Berteneli, and Mary Kane.
I draw the line there largely because the next generation is would then start with Side kicks to side kicks...
2nd Generation
Stephanie Brown, Cassandra Cain, Lonnie Machin, Holly Robbinson, and Kate Kane.
Of course along with this second generation you have Oracle's group who could be considered "sisters" or some such thing so that makes Zinda Blake and Black Canary as part of the Bat family overall.
You also have Catwoman and Holly Robinson (who's Catwoman II) hooking up with Harley Quin and by proxy Poison Ivy and treating them as really close friends, again. you could consider this a family thing and thus adds those two.
From there you have Generation 3 which is really only separated by the newness feeling overall and this gives...
Damian Wayne, Misfit, Black Alice, Proxy, Catgirl, ad Scarlet.
Misfit, Black Alice, and Proxy being like daughters to Oracle, Catgirl being daughter to Selina, and Scarlet as daughter or girlfriend to Jason Todd.
Of course if you track back up there is also the Ra's al ghul connection ^.^ which you could say makes him part of the "gods" of the Bat Family.
And I remind you Bruce is big on the import of his parents and family as well as eastern religion which emphasizes ancestor worship. This would make this view somewhat inline with Bruce's view to some degree. Further the eastern view is that the "master" or "sensei" is part of the family and thus Shiva becomes a matriarch figure to Tim and Bruce making them Brothers and well as father and son ^.^
I think if Dc wants to portray him as the brooding loner they need to cut back a little. Of course starting up Batmen of the World is little odd , Lone Wolves Unite.
Quote:
forgot to comment on that...|
Originally Posted by Optimus_Dex
I think if Dc wants to portray him as the brooding loner they need to cut back a little. Of course starting up Batmen of the World is little odd , Lone Wolves Unite.
|
Bruce has never been "Noone but me can be here" but rather "Only people I approve of can be here" He also lessened his "loner" policy after Return of Bruce Wayne and after other points in his story (which is why canon is important) because he realized he needed others
But basically originally it was "with his approval" and then as he got other agents he trusted it was "with approval from me or my agents" This is why Black Canary was not welcome in Gotham for a while but then after Oracle made her an agent she was. He also only disapproved of Helena and Stephanie because they reminded him of Barbara and what ended up happening to her... and as shown, with very good reason. Helena was nearly shot to death and Stephanie was nearly (actually she was but retcons ^.^) beat to death. Further Maggie Kyle was driven insane for her connection to Selina, Wendy was crippled due to her connection with the titans, Cassandra was hypnotized and used as a weapon, Canary was *****, and I'm pretty sure there are a few other crappy things that have happened to the teen female vigilantes that I would consider part of the bat family. So generally speaking the "approval" policy when enforced has been shown more so as an emotional trauma thing than a loner thing.
The only time in my memory that I can recall Bruce using the approval policy on non-female vigilantes is with Superman which is because he knows that Superman can't help with the problems in Gotham because they aren't a matter of Super Powerful opponents but rather socio-cultural problem and a morale problem. I mean, you can't really beat sense into an insane clown.
I'll agree that the "Bat-Family" has grown exponentially. In the current pre-DCnU continuty we have:
First there was Alfred.
Dick Grayson as the first Robin. Then Dick quit/got fired and went to work with the Titans and eventually became Nightwing, but they have reconciled since then with Dick filling in as Batman on occasion.
Barbarda Gordon as the first Batgirl until she was shot and paralyzed by the Joker, but still remained close in her role as Oracle.
Jason Todd was the second Robin until the Joker killed him, but was resurrected by a retcon punch and is currently the new Red Hood. (I don't consider him a part of the Bat-Family unless they have recently come to terms, but I don't see how that could be since Jason has killed truckloads of people since he came back).
Tim Drake became the third Robin but has since become Red Robin. (I'll admit, it's been several years since I've collected comics monthly so I'm a bit behind)
Cassandra Cain became the second (?) Batgirl. I know that Huntress was wearing a "Bat" costume when No Man's Land began, but was quickly stripped of that by Batman. Cassandra has since become a villain for some reason and I guess she may be part of the family again in the DCnU.
Selina Kyle as Catwoman was a villain for years, but turned hero/vigilante and eventually became romantically involved with Batman, and thus became part of the family.
Stephanie Brown was connected to the family by her relationship, both romantic and as The Spoiler, but really became a part of the family in a brief stint as the fourth Robin when Tim Drake quit. Stephanie apparently died, but has since come back and is/was a new Batgirl.
Damian Wayne is Bruce's son with Talia al Ghul, and is the current Robin.
Those are the ones that I consider to be close enough to be part of the "Bat-Family". As I said before, I haven't been collecting monthly in years, so I don't know how close Kathy Kane/Batwoman is to Batman and his Family.
@Joshua.
Quote:
Isn't Cass now known as BlackBat, working in Hong Kong, and she was adopted by Bruce Wayne. Wouldn't being adopted by Bruce make her part of the family?
|
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
I'll agree that the "Bat-Family" has grown exponentially. In the current pre-DCnU continuty we have:
First there was Alfred. Dick Grayson as the first Robin. Then Dick quit/got fired and went to work with the Titans and eventually became Nightwing, but they have reconciled since then with Dick filling in as Batman on occasion. Barbarda Gordon as the first Batgirl until she was shot and paralyzed by the Joker, but still remained close in her role as Oracle. Jason Todd was the second Robin until the Joker killed him, but was resurrected by a retcon punch and is currently the new Red Hood. (I don't consider him a part of the Bat-Family unless they have recently come to terms, but I don't see how that could be since Jason has killed truckloads of people since he came back). Tim Drake became the third Robin but has since become Red Robin. (I'll admit, it's been several years since I've collected comics monthly so I'm a bit behind) Cassandra Cain became the second (?) Batgirl. I know that Huntress was wearing a "Bat" costume when No Man's Land began, but was quickly stripped of that by Batman. Cassandra has since become a villain for some reason and I guess she may be part of the family again in the DCnU. Selina Kyle as Catwoman was a villain for years, but turned hero/vigilante and eventually became romantically involved with Batman, and thus became part of the family. Stephanie Brown was connected to the family by her relationship, both romantic and as The Spoiler, but really became a part of the family in a brief stint as the fourth Robin when Tim Drake quit. Stephanie apparently died, but has since come back and is/was a new Batgirl. Damian Wayne is Bruce's son with Talia al Ghul, and is the current Robin. Those are the ones that I consider to be close enough to be part of the "Bat-Family". As I said before, I haven't been collecting monthly in years, so I don't know how close Kathy Kane/Batwoman is to Batman and his Family. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Yes...|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Isn't Cass now known as BlackBat, working in Hong Kong, and she was adopted by Bruce Wayne.
|
People related to Bruce Wayne either through adoption, marriage, or blood...
Thomas Wayne (Doctor Hurt) - Great Great Great Grandfather or Uncle
Kathy Kane (Batwoman I) - Aunt via Marriage through Mother's Brother
Alfred Pennyworth - Guardian = semi-adopted
Leslie - Guardian = semi-adopted
Bruce Wayne - Bruce is Bruce ^.^
Dick Grayson - Ward = semi-adopted
Jason Todd - Adopted
Tim Drake - Adopted
Cassandra Cain - Adopted
Damian Wayne - Blood
Talia al Ghul - Damian's Mother
Ra's al Ghul - Grandfather of Damian
Dusan al Ghul - Uncle of Damian
Nyssa Ratko - Aunt of Damian
Sensei - Great Grandfather? of Damian
Sandra Woosan (Lady Shiva) - Mother of Cassandra Cain
David Cain - Father of Cassandra Cain
Selina Kyle + Helena Kyle/Wayne/Bertinelli depends on what canon you are talking about are Married and Child.
You also have Kate Kane (Batwoman II) who isn't stated as being related to anyone we can link with Bruce, but it is likely she is a second or third cousin. And Mary Kane (Bat-Girl/Flamebird) who is stated as being Kate's cousin and she is said to have an aunt named Catherine. Kate also has a twin sister ^.^
Given the common C(K)atherine name, Kane name, and connection through Mary Kane of her knowing Batwoman I it is likely they are related and thus related to Bruce.
If Barbara and Dick ever get married that creates another familial link
Basically any time you see a Wayne, Kane, al Ghul, or Gordon name they are part of a huge extended family...
also we have recently learned that the Waynes, Kanes, Elliots, and Cobblepots are all first families of Gotham which indicates a social and familial link meaning Penguin and Hush are potentially related via blood in some way.
We also were recently introduced to a new character in Red Robin who is thousands of years old and that implies a relation to al Ghul that seems to have a thing for Tim Drake along with one of al Ghul's daughters which is another possible future link together...
Also possible future links are...
The Fox Family (Tamera might end up marrying Tim ^.^)
The Brown Family (Clue Master + Stephanie)
The McGuiness Family (Terry is a clone, but to what degree no clue)
The House of El (Assuming another clone comes about and the wanting silver/golden age things to return Batman Jr might return and marry a kid of Superman's)
You can also look at Bruce and Clark as brothers as Jor El's sending Kal El to earth was predicated on accepting Thomas as an adoptive father to his son, but that's a whole nother issue ^.^
Personally, I'd consider the Batfamily to be much smaller and therefore much more acceptable.
To me, it just looks like you're playing 7 degrees of Batman instead of considering an actual Batfamily.
Head of TRICK, the all Trick Arrow and Traps SG
Part of the Repeat Offenders
Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
Quote:
I did include her in my list of "Bat-Family" didn't I?|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Isn't Cass now known as BlackBat, working in Hong Kong, and she was adopted by Bruce Wayne. Wouldn't being adopted by Bruce make her part of the family?
|
I also stated that I haven't read any monthly comics in several years, so I was unaware that she had been adopted by Bruce.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Rush_Bolt
Personally, I'd consider the Batfamily to be much smaller and therefore much more acceptable.
To me, it just looks like you're playing 7 degrees of Batman instead of considering an actual Batfamily. |
@Joshua.
Quote:
Why wouldn't students and partners of Bruce's students be considered part of the family? |
Originally Posted by Forefinger_
I'd define the "family" as anyone who works/worked with Bruce regularly and actually knew that Bruce Wayne was Batman. In a very literal sense, I guess Bruce's family is Dick, Tim, Damian, and Cass, since he's adopted or fathered them all.
|
Quote:
| To me, it just looks like you're playing 7 degrees of Batman instead of considering an actual Batfamily. |
http://www.firstcomicsnews.com/wp-co...erbyKaluta.jpg
Anyone else recall this comic? I remember buying, reading and enjoying it as a lad.
Confirmed altaholic with 70+ alts in coh and cov...yes i know thats alot! Playing coh since beta test phase.
Quote:
Technically, Terry isn't a clone. He's a son by proxy due to some genetic tinkery done on his father's sperm. But I digress.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
The McGuiness Family (Terry is a clone, but to what degree no clue)
|
Is Batman the only hero in the DCU allowed to have an extended "family" like this anymore? Seems DC is planning to seriously trim back the Flash family tree with them writing out Iris and Barry's marriage and just ignoring Wally & his brood post-Flashpoint.
There is an art, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. --The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Quote:
I guess....they could be....it would be a stretch....but are they aware that Bruce is Batman and do they work with him frequently?
|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Why wouldn't students and partners of Bruce's students be considered part of the family?
|
@Joshua.
Don't forget Batwing and the rest of the Batman Inc. stuff.
Honestly I think there is way to many people going around with a Bat on their chest
Curious, do you guys think it's a good thing or a bad thing that the "core" Bat-family grows...or do you think they need to remove some...
For those of you who don't know or have a different list.. I consider the following to be the bat-family...
Batman (Bruce Wayne)
Alfred Pennyworth
Catwoman (Selina Kyle)
Nightwing (Dick Grayson)
Kathy Kane (Batwoman I)
Flamebird (Mary Kane)
Oracle (Barbara Gordon)
Red Hood (Jason Todd)
Red Robin (Tim Drake)
Batgirl (Stephanie Brown)
Black Bat (Cassandra Cain)
Batwoman II (Kate Kane)
Robin (Damian Wayne)
Proxy (Wendy Harris)
Lonnie Machin (Anarky/Moneyspider)
Scarlet (Sasha ?)
Catgirl (Kitrina Falcone)
Holly Robinson (Catwoman II)
Misfit (Charlotte Gage-Radcliffe)
Black Alice (Lori Zechlin)
Zatanna (Zatanna Zatara)
Black Canary (Dinah Lance)
Lady BlackHawk (Zinda Blake)
Lady Shiva
James Gordon
Huntress (Helena Bertinelli)
And that's just the core bat family without taking into account Batman, Inc. or people like Tam Fox, Sasha Bordeaux, Knight, Squire, or a number of others... and ignoring the criminal "bad apple" "black sheep" "weird uncle" side which would include James Jr., Thomas Wayne (Doctor Hurt), Harley Quinn, Poison Ivy, and perhaps even Joker.
Do you think they should continue to increase the Bat family size (which is hinted at with the girl stealing the Batmobile in Batman: The Dark Kinnght) or do you think they should drop some, which they seem to be doing with the reboot (removing Misfit, Black Alice, Wendy Harris, Stephanie Brown, and a few others)?
Also do you think my list of Bat family members a bit too broad? Or just about right? Or too narrow?