May we please have more than 1 Alpha-type power?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-07-11 18:36 in Suggestions and Ideas
Most of my characters are not and will not become Incarnates. They are "merely" super-beings, with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men, but not gods (or entities of equivalent power). Some of them are merely well-trained and very fit people with technological assistance - and that's the closest I will get to the silly "******** Bat-God" issue.
EDIT: as for "germane to the thread" - no, IMO, we should not have the ability to slot multiple Alpha abilities (at once). The Alpha slot's current implementation is part of the Incarnate system and is working properly in the context of that system. The desire of the OP to receive the benefits of more Incarnate abilities without taking part in the Trials is not relevant or sufficient as a reason to change the system.
[10.5 Mp of "get over yourself" deleted by moderator]
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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What do the Germans have to do with it? And since when is dising Batman "pessimistic?"|
Originally Posted by Amerikatt
Sam and Gob: How are your pessimistic posts germane to the discussion of our characters having the opportunity to have multiple Alpha-class powers?
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How my post is germane to your thread is you are asking for a "human potential incarnate" nonsense which does not and cannot exist within this game system. Even if you wanted to make Mr. Mary Sue defeat a living god, you'd write that story as Batman outsmarting said god and using some kind of odd magitech to beat him. You would not depict Batman punching him in the eye until the god ran out of hit points.
Surprise! We have an instance in the game where our characters are asked to fight a literal god. Hequat, to be precise. Do you know how we defeat her? We keep punching her in the mouth until she falls over. Job done!
You're operating under the false premise that superior stats are somehow less "meta-human" than the ability to shoot lighting. Well, they're not. I don't care how tough Batman is, he does not survive a shotgun blast up the nose, he does not survive dropping 50 storeys and landing on his feet, he does not survive getting shot in the chest with an anti-tank rocket, he does not survive being disintegrated. No matter whether you achieve this with stats or glowing auras, this is still very much super-human, if not above and beyond even that.
From the very first time you set foot in Paragon City at level 1, you are capable of surviving a dozen shotgun blast, probably a hundred knife wounds, dozens of pistol bullet wounds, a drop of any height onto pavement, being set on fire, being electrocuted, multiple bursts from an assault rife, and all of that damage combined you can heal from if you just sit down for four minutes. That is not "human potential incarnate" unless you view immunity to bullets and blades to be part of the human potential. Though, I suppose if you view the fighters in Dragon Ball Z as simply having realised their human potential to break planets in half with the flat of their hand, then I could see THAT interpretation of the dreaded "pure natural" character.
I've never sat down and tried to tell someone they shouldn't play pure natural characters. By all means, make all the MA/SR Scrappers you want, travel around with Swift, Hurdle and Combat Jumping and spin your RP as you like. But when you start asking for the game to be changed and power balance trampled so that you can have what is contradicted by a dozen different in-game systems, I step up and make the same old "pessimistic" post I've made on the subject every time "pure natural human" characters come up. If you want one, it's your responsibility to stick to concept.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't think anything like what's in the OPs post is likely to happen.
However this is a game where a missile launcher can do less damage than a bow and arrow, a burst of oxygen can heal a person crushed by a chunk of concrete, and you can hit a street thug with a battle axe without worrying about jail time. Cool factor > accuracy.
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Make that MA/SR and destroy those tanks! Destroy those 1ft think metal doors! |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I've never sat down and tried to tell someone they shouldn't play pure natural characters. By all means, make all the MA/SR Scrappers you want, travel around with Swift, Hurdle and Combat Jumping and spin your RP as you like. But when you start asking for the game to be changed and power balance trampled so that you can have what is contradicted by a dozen different in-game systems, I step up and make the same old "pessimistic" post I've made on the subject every time "pure natural human" characters come up. If you want one, it's your responsibility to stick to concept.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I think omega is just that but instead of boosting multiple stats you boost 1 or 2 and it has a normal level shift so you can be +2 outside of trials now.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
How do you know Omega isn't exactly that?
I suspect that Omega is going to be very similar in function to Alpha. It would round things out nicely. We won't know for a while, but don't count it out yet. |
On another note why does being natural mean you are automatically human? What if you're from another world and you are naturally stronger than the average human on earth. Such as Superman!.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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It doesn't. But people like to say Natural Build for those normal human heroes they make.
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Originally Posted by Noyjitat
I think omega is just that but instead of boosting multiple stats you boost 1 or 2 and it has a normal level shift so you can be +2 outside of trials now.
On another note why does being natural mean you are automatically human? What if you're from another world and you are naturally stronger than the average human on earth. Such as Superman!. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
My mostly-human AR corruptor isn't an Incarnate thematically, but I've still chosen the powers, and just refluffed them. Spiritual Core Paragon is an incredibly potent combat drug, and I turn it on only for Icontent to represent that. Pyronic Judgment is an intense artillery barrage of hyperthermic warheads, designed to do inflict catastrophic harm to even the most potent foe. IDF Lore is her calling on a friend from her former unit to help. Rebirth Destiny is a cloud of surgical nanites capable of instantly healing most wounds at substantial risk. Reactive Interface is just high-intensity incendiary rounds.
This character's not an incarnate, and what little inhuman power she has hasn't increased. Most of her talent still comes from just being an extremely good soldier. It's just that she's able to go up against Incarnate-level threats because she has a vast array of powerful tools, and has these tools because she goes up against Incarnate-level content.
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It doesn't. I'm not sure if it ever did. However, people have been trying to justify "pure natural human" characters since the game came out, usually with requests for vehicles or swinging travel powers because the existing sets aren't "pure natural human" enough. Well, or suggestions like this. I can get the pure natural humans being somewhat justifiable in the first 10, 20 levels when you're fighting mostly thugs, street criminals and lower-key monsters, but by the time you're taking down armies of giant combat robots, hordes of demons, huge monsters and literal gods with your bare hands... That really doesn't work any more. Again - if people can explain it, then more power to them, but I don't want to see the game changed for the worse so as to accommodate it.|
Originally Posted by Noyjitat
On another note why does being natural mean you are automatically human? What if you're from another world and you are naturally stronger than the average human on earth. Such as Superman!.
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I have a problem with the suggestion to take the Alpha slot five times in that it makes power slotting just about pointless. What's to stop me from taking the accuracy Alpha once, the endurance Alpha once and the damage Alpha three times and never put another slot in my attacks, saving upwards of 20 slots to practically 6-slot everything else? It's simply bad balance, on the same level of "bad" as the old suggestion to skip a power pick and take slots, instead. It makes a mockery of the entire power and slot build structure and it turns Incarnates into a mess. And for what? So a "pure natural human" can exist where he or she has no place to exist? It's not worth breaking the game for something that character writing has the responsibility of explaining.
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Now, mind you, that's not to say I don't want less... Elemental-y character concepts for Incarnates. Far from it. For a character with a sword, I'd like to see some kind of large-scale sword attack as a judgement. For characters with Super Strength, I want to see a Mega Ground Punch of some sort. I want to see more custom Incarnate options that accommodate more concepts, possibly even up to and including pure natural humans. Again, I have nothing against them, and if the systems' visuals can be made to accommodate them, all the better. I want more Incarnate customization in general, just speaking overall. But note that such visual customization doesn't turn the entire game system on its head.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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^This x1000. If you insist on RPing your character beyond the game, you will at times be forced to make adjustments to game content when the vision of the devs does not line up with your vision of your own character.
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Originally Posted by uberschveinen
My mostly-human AR corruptor isn't an Incarnate thematically, but I've still chosen the powers, and just refluffed them. Spiritual Core Paragon is an incredibly potent combat drug, and I turn it on only for Icontent to represent that. Pyronic Judgment is an intense artillery barrage of hyperthermic warheads, designed to do inflict catastrophic harm to even the most potent foe. IDF Lore is her calling on a friend from her former unit to help. Rebirth Destiny is a cloud of surgical nanites capable of instantly healing most wounds at substantial risk. Reactive Interface is just high-intensity incendiary rounds.
This character's not an incarnate, and what little inhuman power she has hasn't increased. Most of her talent still comes from just being an extremely good soldier. It's just that she's able to go up against Incarnate-level threats because she has a vast array of powerful tools, and has these tools because she goes up against Incarnate-level content. |
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Jagged approves of this message |
Originally Posted by Amerikatt
GreenFlame and Samuel_Tow: A character like Batman is an Incarnate as well, albeit a different kind of Incarnate than Superman would be. Batman is the Human Potential Incarnate, and he *would* have the four Alpha-level abilities as well as the To-Hit Interface were he in the City of ... universe.
He has fought both street-level thugs and supernatural beings and been present at some very cosmic events. To be Incarnate is to be a certain concept epitomized and does *not* require that someone have demigod-level abilties. |
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
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Based on your other "role playing" posts I am surprised at this.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I've never sat down and tried to tell someone they shouldn't play pure natural characters. By all means, make all the MA/SR Scrappers you want, travel around with Swift, Hurdle and Combat Jumping and spin your RP as you like. But when you start asking for the game to be changed and power balance trampled so that you can have what is contradicted by a dozen different in-game systems, I step up and make the same old "pessimistic" post I've made on the subject every time "pure natural human" characters come up. If you want one, it's your responsibility to stick to concept.
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I am perfectly happy with the concept of Batman throwing Superman around simply because his "technique" is that good. That fits in with my style of role playing and if this game can change some of their "window dressing" so that it fits with a wider range of concepts that is all good as far as I am concerned. Having the option to tweak the Lore Pet auras so they don't appear as ghosts would be a great example of exactly that.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
What my characters do is what I describe them to be doing in my own imagination. I really dont care about the " well of furies " lingo.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Yeah. The idea of Batman throwing him once is good!|
Originally Posted by Jagged
Based on your other "role playing" posts I am surprised at this.
I am perfectly happy with the concept of Batman throwing Superman around simply because his "technique" is that good. That fits in with my style of role playing and if this game can change some of their "window dressing" so that it fits with a wider range of concepts that is all good as far as I am concerned. Having the option to tweak the Lore Pet auras so they don't appear as ghosts would be a great example of exactly that. |
It's after that fact, when Superman can run/fly at him at Mach 5 speed, hit him in the stomach hard enough to break his back, where it becomes a stretch.
Mind you, this only goes to those natural humans who rely on reflexes and Hand to hand, and no tech at all (which Batman isn't).
MA/SR like Sam said. It's a concept, but to say it's a pure human, like in real life, and to say they can tear apart a tank by kicking it? o.O Can survive gun shot wounds. Let's face it, even the most agile is getting hit 5% of the time.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Something like this I can definitely get behind. Adding more Lore pets, disabling the ghostly aura, adding more Judgement powers and so forth, all of that stuff is great and I support it completely. More options within the existing system is always a good thing. It lets us make our characters closer to what we want them to be while still fitting within a working game system. It's when we start trying to rewrite fairly fundamental aspects of power balance that I begin to grumble.
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Originally Posted by Jagged
Having the option to tweak the Lore Pet auras so they don't appear as ghosts would be a great example of exactly that.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Most of the game content with the exception of iTrials (unless you're well iSlotted up already ofc) has become trivial with Incarnate Powers as it is. Yet you want to give people an easier to access method to acquire ultimate power?|
Originally Posted by Amerikatt
Sam and Gob: How are your pessimistic posts germane to the discussion of our characters having the opportunity to have multiple Alpha-class powers?
Your posts belong in a different sort of thread. Please restrict your discussions to the topic at hand. Thanks! |
While I do enjoy feeling god-like in even level content I'd prefer it not be the case across the board as you'd lose any sense of achievement.
I would prefer the alpha slot be changed so that the current four paths had more branches with more effects. As a well planned character shouldn't really need any of the current crop of enhancements. :/
Slightly off-topic on the Supes vs Batman point. The only example I can think of is the fight in The Dark Knight Returns.
Bats nearly wins because of;
1) Hitting Supes with three ground to air missiles
2) Hitting him with high power sonics
3) Effectively plugging him into the City Powergrind to zap him, which goes on to power-
4) A massive suit of power armour to up his strength and give him at least some protection against Supes uberstrength
5) Having Green Arrow hit him with a synthesised Kryptonite arrow, thus bringing all his advantages crashing down.
So. All of those things are rather out of the ordinary for the 'Sprays that fix everything' gadgets Bats usually uses. Which makes me to think; maybe those are 'natural' examples of Incarnate abilities?
Character suddenly doing more damage (Musculature) or having more energy (Cardiac)? Special munitions for AR/DP users, powered gauntlets for MA users, Vanguard style energy swords for blade wielders, etc. And Power-suits, super serums, etc etc.
So, yeah. Anything can go. I tend to ignore the Puddle of Annoyance when it gets too silly anyway.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Part of me wants to say that the Incarnate path is simply not one those characters should go down. At all. Due mainly to the fact that once you begin to acquire progress in the Incarnate path, you cease to be a "Natural" character at all.|
Originally Posted by Amerikatt
Some characters are street-level crimebusters and it makes sense for them to have abilities which reflect their intense drive toward realizing the pinnacle of their personal development.
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But, there is also the idea that those characters should be able to compete (for lack of a better word) with other characters for whom Incarnat-ing does make sense conceptually.
So, I am unsure if I support this idea or not. :~/
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There's frankly no need.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Part of me wants to say that the Incarnate path is simply not one those characters should go down. At all. Due mainly to the fact that once you begin to acquire progress in the Incarnate path, you cease to be a "Natural" character at all.
But, there is also the idea that those characters should be able to compete (for lack of a better word) with other characters for whom Incarnat-ing does make sense conceptually. So, I am unsure if I support this idea or not. :~/ |
My Crab Spider, for one, is not an 'Incarnate'. Alpha slot? Better armour plating and cybernetic add-on's for her armour-interface. Lore? Arachnos minions (ignoring the stupid aura effect). Judgement? Not picked one yet, but likely Void, which will count as an over-charged, short ranged blast from the armour's generator. Interface? Arachnos toxins added to the longfang cannons to make sure all shots and cuts are tough enough to chew through armour and cause more damage (Reactive)
See? All in line with a character who is little more than a peak human, some cybernetic add ons and a big suit of badass armour.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Oooh, I like these things. Let me do Dechs next, he's the closest I have to a normal human (bots/traps). |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
See? All in line with a character who is little more than a peak human, some cybernetic add ons and a big suit of badass armour.
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Judgement: Ion, easy to explain, what with the awesome robots he drags around all the time. Temporarily draws power from each the robots to concentrate an electrical overload on his enemies. Interface: Again, easy. Robot blasts are designed to degrade armor and light stuff on fire. Who doesn't want that? Lore: The biggest stretch, but still not bad. Ignore the aura, and I make new kinds of robots that look oddly similar to Praetorian Clockwork. Destiny: Nanite cloud surge that repairs anything, even organic material, and creates a temporary protective barrier around them (+max HP Rebirth)
None of my characters are "drink from the Well incarnates," but that won't stop them from getting really awesome powers. Everyone else is magic, though, so it makes things like incarnate powers trivial to handwave away as just "more magic."
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Alpha was particularly easy.
SCIENCE! meant that he ended up absorbing and fusing with the Lunar Orbital Railcannon platform he had made, effectively boosting him and his bots (Level Shifts).
Ion Judgment is merely a massive energy blast from his now supercharged core. Barrier destiny is an overclocked shield from the FF-Gen and Protector bots. Reactive is simply high powered plasma and lasers eating through armour and leaving burns. And Lore (ignoring the silly aura) is two stolen/customised/self-built robots patterned after the Praetorians very nice robots.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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As I said before - I'm not really against reinterpreting what the powers mean and where they come from (especially when they come from the Well of the Stupid and the Origin of Stupidity), and that's actually the smart way to go about it. We just need more options so we don't have to go so far afield to look for tenuous explanations.
When it comes to someone who's using gadgets and allies like Batman does, I still believe that this can be explained. In fact, I find that gadgets and allies would be much closer to a Batman concept than the inherent strength to punch through tank armour would be. Techbot mentioned missiles and an arrow from an ally. Well, the Lore's your ally, the Judgement is your tactical missile. Just say you knew where the enemy would be so you had launchers set up ahead of time. We don't really have one that looks a lot like an off-site missile, granted, but I'm thinking as I type so that's the best I have.
Explanations exist for a lot of things, but I still feel we could use more Incarnate powers so as to fit a broader range of concepts. Personally, I like to describe all of a characters' powers - primary, secondary, pool, epic, patron, Incarnate and beyond - as powers the character developed individually. For my energy being alien girl, everything she does stems from the same cosmic energy that powers a whole krappton of complex fiction I've written. She's an Energy/Will/Energy (soon to be, anyway) Brute. Energy Melee is just melee with energy. Willpower - with a colour-matched glowing aura - is the same energy acting to protect and heal her. Energy Mastery is just more energy helping to sustain her longer, heal her even more and giving her even more energy attacks. If I get around to it, I'll probably have to go with the Ionic judgement, even though it's more electricity, less abstract energy, but I'd still like to see a Nova-like Judgement anyway.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Think you mean Judgement not Destiny, Sam
/Typo Nazi
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I did. Fixed.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yellow sunlight isn't even natural to kryptonians or their evolution, Clark is a Science hero he only has powers when being topped off by an external stimulus(yellow sunlight) which is about as natural as getting lung cancer from cigarettes
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Originally Posted by Noyjitat
I think omega is just that but instead of boosting multiple stats you boost 1 or 2 and it has a normal level shift so you can be +2 outside of trials now.
On another note why does being natural mean you are automatically human? What if you're from another world and you are naturally stronger than the average human on earth. Such as Superman!. |
Fair enough, your idea gets my stamp of approval (for what pittance that's worth).
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.