Poison's PbAoE Effects
By
Amy_Amp,
Posted on: 2011-07-07 13:49 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I think that for Controllers specifically it makes much more sense for this power to be a personal PBAoE.
For other ATs it would depend on the situation. I definitely don't want anything like Sonic's debuff ring. The only exception to this generalization would be if it ever becomes possible to place powers like Arctic Air and Hot Feet optionally on yourself or an ally. If it's locked to one or the other though I think most of the time it comes up better locked to self than to locked to ally.
Personally, I think the Mastermind version SHOULD be changed to be 'Target Ally' rather than being restricted to ONLY pets.
I mean, this is the ultimate power in /Poison and it is really only one step above Poison Trap in usefulness because it depends on AI of pets...which really sucks.
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If Noxious "were" changed to an alley toggle you can bet your first born I'd be screaming for the change to be ported to MMs. d;D
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Originally Posted by Lady_of_Ysgard
Personally, I think the Mastermind version SHOULD be changed to be 'Target Ally' rather than being restricted to ONLY pets.
I mean, this is the ultimate power in /Poison and it is really only one step above Poison Trap in usefulness because it depends on AI of pets...which really sucks. |
I want the controller version to be an aura around me. All the other animations imply that I am the one spewing, extracting, emitting and/or producing the effect. For character reasons, I want to give off a debilitating aura.
I hate the idea of changing this to pet or ally for controllers.
For masterminds, I personally view it as your character poisoning a pet, so it seems like your player allies wouldnt want that. Well some would love to catch an infectious aura from a sexy poison person. 
but still even tho it seems odd to me personally, by all means let the mastermind version toggle pets or allies.
I am mixed for corruptors but favor the point blank solution, because ally toggles suck and because my rad/poison/mace corruptor wants to soft cap, puke on you, stand next to you, sicken you with my aura, then explode on you. Then throw the green basketball of doom at you. Then nuke you.
Basically, I dont want to tie down corruptors or controllors to their top power being useless solo. For masterminds, well, ally is fine for solo or team, pet ai notwithstanding (tho I micromamage fine).
Tho frankly I would prefer the pbaoe on masterminds too, but I dont want to screw over ranged masterminds.
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I'd rather keep it around my character, at least for Corrs/Trollers/and later Defenders, then an ally toggle.
I want powers my own character can use while solo, not restricted to only teaming.
And I team a lot.
With MMs, at least I will have a Henchman available to use it on.
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If it's stays with it's current limitation of where it can be used, it will remain at the same strength. If you move it to being an ally buff, I wouldn't be surprised if it's numbers got altered.
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Whether it's an alley toggle or a boulevard toggle, being able to use it on allies would be nice.
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Originally Posted by Tokyo
If Noxious "were" changed to an alley toggle you can bet your first born I'd be screaming for the change to be ported to MMs. d;D
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Thing is, it's not like it's all that strong, especially when you look at the limitations of the current MM power.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
If it's stays with it's current limitation of where it can be used, it will remain at the same strength. If you move it to being an ally buff, I wouldn't be surprised if it's numbers got altered.
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- Only targets your own pet.
- Cannot target player allies.
- Performance depends on pet tier, so best used on tier 3 pet.
- Only effective in melee, thus on melee pets
- 45 second duration, 300 second recharge.
Effects are:
10% ToHit Debuff
20% Damage Debuff
20% Defense Debuff
30% Resist Debuff
Compare that to say, Darkest Night, which is not dependent on pet AI, doesn't scale for pet level and can be used in any situation, pets or not. It's also available at level four, and can be used on every spawn.
11%ToHit debuff
22.5% Damage debuff
Heck, add Tar Patch (available at level 2) and Dark is sitting pretty dang close to Noxious Gas by level 4 (34 levels earlier than Noxious Gas) with NONE of the limitations that Noxious gas has. Radiation can do similar things by level 10 with Radiation Infection and Enervating Field.
Or look at Painbringer, another tier 9 MM power like NG. It can be targeted to player or pet, not dependent on tier, effective in and out of battle (not just melee, but battle), and a 90 second duration with a 300 second recharge.
+regen
+recovery
37% damage buff
Noxious Gas is a fine idea, and it seems strong, but its limitations make it not hold up under much scrutiny.
Personally I think at MINIMUM the powers guys should remove the dependency on pet tier from the power. That would open up MM Poison to more MM primaries. But additionally, with the current stringent limitations of Noxious Gas (up to and including Pet AI) NG should have its duration lengthened or even be made into a toggle.
The 30% resist debuff is nothing to sneeze at. I would use it if it even just had that alone, but it would need to have a shorter recharge.
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Quote:
Keep in mind that it stacks with Enervate and Weaken, and has a Hold component. And that a Corruptor or Controller is going to have stronger AT modifiers than a Mastermind.
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Originally Posted by Dromio
Thing is, it's not like it's all that strong, especially when you look at the limitations of the current MM power.
<snip> Heck, add Tar Patch (available at level 2) and Dark is sitting pretty dang close to Noxious Gas by level 4 (34 levels earlier than Noxious Gas) with NONE of the limitations that Noxious gas has. Radiation can do similar things by level 10 with Radiation Infection and Enervating Field. |
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On a single target (for now) in melee with a specific pet. How many targets do Darkest Night and Tar Patch stack on at level 4 without needing a pet (or worrying about tiers), with far shorter recharges, casting only two powers, and without requiring melee distance for casting or effectiveness? Ten? And by default we're talking about 45 seconds out of 300 for your Poison combo. The Darkest Night/Tar Patch combo leaves anything Poison can throw out in the dust in any battle with more than two foes.|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Keep in mind that it stacks with Enervate and Weaken, and has a Hold component. And that a Corruptor or Controller is going to have stronger AT modifiers than a Mastermind.
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Even when the Weaken and Envenom powers get their ghetto AoE anything but the main target will only be getting half the effect, and the stacking is still up in the air (no reports from beta). If the stacking remains the same then only one piece of each of those two debuffs will stack (with only the main target getting the full effect), and of course there's not even a possibility of stacking Noxious.
Plus we're still talking about three powers for Poison. Let's add Twilight Grasp into our Dark combo to keep it even. Now we've added a stackable single target regen debuff, damage debuff, ToHit debuff, and AoE heal to the Dark combo. And it's all still available at level 4 with no pet limitations or AI worries. Oh, and that stackable Twilight Grasp power? It's got an 8 second recharge compared to the 12 and 16 second recharges of Envenom and Weaken.
The hold is a chance for hold (20%) I think. You can't depend on it to fire. It's there, but you can't plan on leveraging it.
Noxious is not powerful enough considering all of its limitations (including targeting, recharge and duration, and lack of suitability to a wide range of MM primaries).
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| The 30% resist debuff is nothing to sneeze at. I would use it if it even just had that alone, but it would need to have a shorter recharge. |
Can't they make it both: Target Ally and Target Self? I would imagine it shouldn't be that hard. If you don't click any target, you use it on yourself? Why does it have to be one or the other?
And if you really want me to pick, I rather it be Target Self even on Mastermind because I can maneuver way better than relying on Bruiser/Demon Prince.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Throw in the VEAT coding and give an option, one PBAoE toggle, one ally toggle, taking one greys out the other, increase the end drain of the one on an ally if it's not like that due to a balance issue. Then you can use an alternate build for when you're teaming so you can throw it on the Tank/Scrapper/Overzealous Blaster.
Personally I'd like to be able to toggle it on allies, I know plenty of Brutes who'd adore the chance to be a walking debuff.
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Poison MMs are gross, they spit stuff and poison their pets, so I'm sure they'll prefer dark alleys.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Whether it's an alley toggle or a boulevard toggle, being able to use it on allies would be nice.
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So, I recently read up on the proliferation of Poison across Corr and Controllers and am very excited about the news! except for one minor detail; the effects of Noxious Gas.
Ever since I've played a Poison MM I have always wished I could throw Noxious Gas on Melee teammates.
Personally I would really like to see Noxious Gas as an alley toggle similar to Sonic Secondaries Disruption field and to balance add Telekinesis's endurance cost.
I realize there are many arguments against alley toggles but a power such as Noxious Gas (which is an insanely awesome debuff) I believe the benefits greatly outweigh the harm.
Curious as to others thoughts on whether they like the idea of a PbAoE or have some other ideas how Noxious Gas could be utilized.