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They've already explained that. They couldn't do anything involving new artwork/animations this time around. Apparently even re-using an existing animation but giving it an icy/frosty effect would involve something like this. So for Stalkers the obvious problem was Assassin Strike. I would very much expect to see Ice Melee some time after i21.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Ugh!!!!!!!!!!!
If they are modifying Ice Armor, they should port Ice Melee as well to complete the theme. I don't want to level an Ice Armor and then months later (or a year later), they decide to port Ice Melee. |
Villains: Annie Alias, Dr. Amperical, Shade Golem, Knight Marksman
Heroes: The Clockwork Mime, Soccerpunch, The Fissioneer, Samurai Houston, Oversteer
Join The X-Patriots on Virtue!
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Apparently even Brute wants Ice Melee/Armor. So by the time they are ready to give Villains Ice Melee, it will be a "cash item". Oh well... I am sure I'll buy it if Ice Melee is modified well for Stalker.
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Originally Posted by Zem
They've already explained that. They couldn't do anything involving new artwork/animations this time around. Apparently even re-using an existing animation but giving it an icy/frosty effect would involve something like this. So for Stalkers the obvious problem was Assassin Strike. I would very much expect to see Ice Melee some time after i21.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Only Brutes would get the Hibernate tier 9!|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Apparently even Brute wants Ice Melee/Armor. So by the time they are ready to give Villains Ice Melee, it will be a "cash item". Oh well... I am sure I'll buy it if Ice Melee is modified well for Stalker.
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Personally, I like Hibernate, but I can see some complaining.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I agree with your list as well...I just...it feels weird to see Ice Melee Without Ice Slick but it's possible. *Looks at Icy Assault* Ice slash is a bit strong for a Tier 3, so I agree with the Change.|
Originally Posted by Zem
AoE isn't the problem there. You've got fewer AoE attacks there than Elec Melee has. The problem is the lack of the minor tier 1 / moderate tier 2 combo that ALL scrapper and stalker primaries have. Not sure they are willing to break that mold however interesting it might be to do so. So your 1 and 2 powers will likely remain Frozen Fists and Ice Sword. Ice Slash is also a bit strong for the tier 3 slot. And Ice Patch is most definitely not like anything any other Stalker has in its primary though I'd have to say if they keep it then an Ice/Ninja would be one heck of a Stalk-troller.
 Anyway, I'd expect something more like this: 1.Frozen Fists 2.Ice Sword 3.Frost 4.Assassin's Spike 5.Build Up 6.Placate 7.Ice Sword Circle 8.Ice Slash (or Freezing Touch) 9.Frozen Aura Again, not saying I like this one better than your version... just that it seems more in-line with what we've been seeing from recent proliferations. They've been plenty willing to add more AoEs, but not to lose the basic tier 1/2. Not yet anyway. |
A lot of people hate Frost but it has a SUPER wide cone...almost so wide that it feels like an aoe and does great dmg...it's just VERY slow DOT. The dot is about as slow as the Dot you get when you are hit by a Poison Dart Blast from the Freakshow:Meat Doctor.
Whats the difference between Ice Slash from dominators, and Greater Ice Sword? Don't they do about the same things?
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Ice Slash animates faster.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Whats the difference between Ice Slash from dominators, and Greater Ice Sword? Don't they do about the same things?
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Zem...Negate...I see a problem with your lists...they have 2 PBAOE attacks.
Ice Sword Circle AND Frozen Aura. I just don't see that happening.
1) Ice Barrage
2) Ice Sword
3) Freezing Touch
4) Assassin Strike
5) Build Up
6) Placate
7) Ice Patch
8) Ice Slash
9) Frozen Aura
Would be my guess.
Ice Melee needs Ice Patch if it won't be in the Epics, and right now there are no Ice Epics. It's to linked to the concept not to be available to an AT with Ice capabilities.
There's a loss of Frost, but I just don't imagine them taking out Ice Sword or Ice Barrage. Now they could take out FT or IS for it, however the loss of FT and better version of GIS would be suckie.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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From what I've read, Greater Ice Sword has the worst damage per activation ratio in the whole Ice Melee set. When you have enough recharge, Greater Ice Sword deals the least amount of damage (however it does debuff slow better than other ice attacks). |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Whats the difference between Ice Slash from dominators, and Greater Ice Sword? Don't they do about the same things?
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Greater Ice Sword activates in 2.33s
Ice Slash activates in 1.83s. Ice Slash also has different animation. Greater Ice Sword is like headsplitter.
They both have higher innate accuracy. I thought Greater Ice Sword doesn't.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Good list!!! I read the tanker forum and apparently Frost is a very good ice attack but it's a cone. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Zem...Negate...I see a problem with your lists...they have 2 PBAOE attacks.
Ice Sword Circle AND Frozen Aura. I just don't see that happening. 1) Ice Barrage 2) Ice Sword 3) Freezing Touch 4) Assassin Strike 5) Build Up 6) Placate 7) Ice Patch 8) Ice Slash 9) Frozen Aura Would be my guess. Ice Melee needs Ice Patch if it won't be in the Epics, and right now there are no Ice Epics. It's to linked to the concept not to be available to an AT with Ice capabilities. There's a loss of Frost, but I just don't imagine them taking out Ice Sword or Ice Barrage. Now they could take out FT or IS for it, however the loss of FT and better version of GIS would be suckie. |
Well, Stalker is used to losing one aoe for Assassin Strike. If it's one we have to lose, I'll choose Frost.
Now, here is the interesting thing... who says they can't add some initial Ice Damage in Ice Patch? That shall make up the loss of aoe in Frost.
It really depends on how much they want to modify for Stalker. If they want to make it a "Cash Item", then they have more incentive to make it a good Stalker set rather than a straight boring port.
Maybe they can add a small melee Cone attack to make up the loss of Frost? I'll go with this:
1) Ice Sword : 4s
2) Ice Barrage : 8s cone attack
3) Ice Slash : 10s (with no innate accuracy bonus)
4) Assassin Strike
5) Build Up
6) Placate
7) Ice Patch
8) Freezing Touch: 16s
9) Frozen Aura / Greater Ice Sword : 20s
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I'm assuming Ice Barrage is much like Shadow Maul? I've never heard of that power. I think it would be wise of them to Add Two pbaoe's to bring Ice up to snuff with sets like DB, Elec Melee, Spines.
Just frozen Aura and The cone counting as you're only "aoe" that sounds a bit anemic...*Looks at the Claws and Spine sets and is horrified at how gutted out it is.* Why didn't Brutes get Ice again? No wonder most stalkers play Elec Melee! I think I need to lay down.
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Ice Barrage is basically Barrage *from energy) just with ice, that 1-2 punch animation.|
Originally Posted by Negate
I'm assuming Ice Barrage is much like Shadow Maul? I've never heard of that power. I think it would be wise of them to Add Two pbaoe's to bring Ice up to snuff with sets like DB, Elec Melee, Spines.
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Ice currently has pretty high damage, due to frost and frozen aura, mainly due to the frozen aura buff awhile ago. Now its basically foot stomp with cold damage. Super strength deals pretty high damage, both single target, and AoE, and ice is on par with SS.
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I think Ice Barrage is just made up for tier 1 attack. I am thinking more of X-Cuts. Slash left and right like an X with ice sword which does small cone aoe. Or they can simply keep Frost. I don't care. Frost is a good attack even on its own.|
Originally Posted by Negate
I'm assuming Ice Barrage is much like Shadow Maul? I've never heard of that power. I think it would be wise of them to Add Two pbaoe's to bring Ice up to snuff with sets like DB, Elec Melee, Spines.
Just frozen Aura and The cone counting as you're only "aoe" that sounds a bit anemic...*Looks at the Claws and Spine sets and is horrified at how gutted out it is.* Why didn't Brutes get Ice again? No wonder most stalkers play Elec Melee! I think I need to lay down. |
Well, just "frozen aura"... some sets like Energy Melee and Martial Arts don't even have one aoe so frozen aura along is what most stalker sets get. Kinetic Melee only has one pbaoe too (but with 100% critical).
Swap out Ice Barrage and keep Frost. We'll have:
1) Ice Sword
2) Frost
3) Ice Slash
4) Assassin Strike
5) Build Up
6) Placate
7) Ice Patch
8) Frozen Touch
9) Frozen Aura/Greater Ice Sword.
I want to keep all the Ice Sword attacks because of Sub Zero in Mortal Kombat. If they need idea for ice melee, look at him!
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Frozen Aura has only a 10' radius, little more than Spin and etc. Footstomp has 15 and it is way better due to kd and Rage. GIS is a very lackluster attack and I think that's what Stalkers are getting instead of FA, we don't see ST attacks getting pulled out of Stalker primaries.
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Originally Posted by Arbegla
Ice Barrage is basically Barrage *from energy) just with ice, that 1-2 punch animation.
Ice currently has pretty high damage, due to frost and frozen aura, mainly due to the frozen aura buff awhile ago. Now its basically foot stomp with cold damage. Super strength deals pretty high damage, both single target, and AoE, and ice is on par with SS. |
GIS is pretty sad. Even w/o being a math wiz one can easily test out the damage GIS deals. Ice Sword outshines GIS in dmg over time. The set is very Tanky so I hope they modify it a bit for Stalkers.
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Naaaa...I don't see them getting rid of Frozen Aura. It's to awesome looking of an animation to let it go to waste.|
Originally Posted by Kioshi
Frozen Aura has only a 10' radius, little more than Spin and etc. Footstomp has 15 and it is way better due to kd and Rage. GIS is a very lackluster attack and I think that's what Stalkers are getting instead of FA, we don't see ST attacks getting pulled out of Stalker primaries.
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I made my Ice/Ice Tanker specifically to use Frozen Aura, and did, BEFORE it got the damage added to it.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Was it? I don't recall.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
What interests me is, wasn't Leo_G's proposed Ice Armor for Stalkers suggestion similar to what we're getting? Regardless, looking forward to this.
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Coming back and getting a chance to read up on the info...yeah I had a feeling we'd be keeping Chilling Embrace but usually, my proposed versions of the set had CE dropped and replaced with Ice Slick from the melee set.
Icy Bastion sounds effective, to say the least. Not that strategical but still very useful. I could have suggested a MoG-esque short-duration crashless buff but it'd probably wouldn't have been my favorite replacements.
Of some of the suggestions I made:
-A Hibernate-shadow clone. Basically freezing yourself in a block of ice that draws the foes' attention while you 'slip out the back' hidden. It probably wouldn't phase or even heal that much, but it'd be a quick distraction tool and maybe provide some unsuppressed stealth.
-A moderate recharge non-inhibiting Rest toggle. Kind of like rest (buff your regen/recovery but not by as much as Rest or even Hibernate) but you can move. Combat turns it off (or suppresses it until the max duration is reached). It'd have been a duck-and-(re)cover type of maneuver.
I also remember some suggestions for a debuff toggle or even debuff clicks but felt they probably wouldn't fit properly in an armor set.
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It's a given that they'll remove Ice Patch...and that makes me want to cry |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Naaaa...I don't see them getting rid of Frozen Aura. It's to awesome looking of an animation to let it go to waste.
I made my Ice/Ice Tanker specifically to use Frozen Aura, and did, BEFORE it got the damage added to it. |
If they decide to spice up Ice Melee (because it probably needs it for the other melees), I'd imagine them either buffing Greater Ice Sword or replacing it with Ice Slash or Ice Sword Circle.
My personal wish is removing both GIS and Frozen Fists, shifting up Frost 1 slot, moving up Freezing Touch sooner and stick in Ice Sword Circle (in place of GIS) and creating a new single target attack with either moderate damage + some control or just good damage. Throw an ice javelin, icy version of stone spears, snowflake saw blade...a lot of cool things one can do with ice that they just didn't do >_>
So that above + Ice patch for Brutes/Scraps and Ice Patch>Assassin's Chill for Stalkers.
Maybe for the Ice Epic Pool, they can stick Ice Patch in there for Stalkers. I don't think there's a rule that says Scrap and Stalk pools have to be identical...in fact, they're not
Since I love KM/X I'd be most interested in trying the two out. My only concern is the money costs but I suppose a few hero/vill runs and I should be fine as long as I stick to a decent schedule.
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If they make an Ice Epic with Hibernate and Ice Patch, I'm fine it.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
It's a given that they'll remove Ice Patch...and that makes me want to cry
If they decide to spice up Ice Melee (because it probably needs it for the other melees), I'd imagine them either buffing Greater Ice Sword or replacing it with Ice Slash or Ice Sword Circle. My personal wish is removing both GIS and Frozen Fists, shifting up Frost 1 slot, moving up Freezing Touch sooner and stick in Ice Sword Circle (in place of GIS) and creating a new single target attack with either moderate damage + some control or just good damage. Throw an ice javelin, icy version of stone spears, snowflake saw blade...a lot of cool things one can do with ice that they just didn't do >_> So that above + Ice patch for Brutes/Scraps and Ice Patch>Assassin's Chill for Stalkers. Maybe for the Ice Epic Pool, they can stick Ice Patch in there for Stalkers. I don't think there's a rule that says Scrap and Stalk pools have to be identical...in fact, they're not |
Ice Patch
Ice Blast
Hibernate
Ice Rain
Greater Ice Blast
There...nice and simple
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I doubt it would have Hibernate in it too. Only the Patron Pools seem to have high-order defensive powers like that. Probably something like:|
Originally Posted by BrandX
If they make an Ice Epic with Hibernate and Ice Patch, I'm fine it.
Ice Patch Ice Blast Hibernate Ice Rain Greater Ice Blast There...nice and simple |
Chilblain
Ice Blast
Ice Patch
Benumb (I wish)
Ice Storm
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Block of Ice|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I doubt it would have Hibernate in it too. Only the Patron Pools seem to have high-order defensive powers like that. Probably something like:
Chilblain Ice Blast Ice Patch Benumb (I wish) Ice Storm |
Ice Blast
Ice Patch
Hibernate
Ice Storm
There we go!
5 powers that would leave me going "I only get to pick 4?!"Though, I'd love to see Chilb
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Ice Melee without Ice Patch will be boring IMO. They can, however, create a new short target aoe (like Fault) or pbaoe that knocks down initially so it's a good battle opener. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
It's a given that they'll remove Ice Patch...and that makes me want to cry
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I don't think Ice Patch is going to mess with stalker's performance. In fact, I think it's great because Stalker can stealth in and drop Ice Patch before the fight even starts! You can't set up Assassin Strike due to aggro? Good. It gives you a reason to use something else. Assassin Strike slows you down anything. And if those that truly love AS, you can still open the battle with BU + AS.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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It didn't mention that because I thought it interfered with Stalker tactics. I just mentioned it because the devs have a tendency (now) to drop damage-less utility powers vs actual attacks. I guess Repulsing Torrent was kind of like an attack and it had good range but it doesn't quite mesh with the other attacks considering it knocks foes away (after you have to hop backward to line them up). Of the powers to drop from Ice melee:| I don't think Ice Patch is going to mess with stalker's performance. In fact, I think it's great because Stalker can stealth in and drop Ice Patch before the fight even starts! You can't set up Assassin Strike due to aggro? Good. It gives you a reason to use something else. Assassin Strike slows you down anything. And if those that truly love AS, you can still open the battle with BU + AS. |
Greater Ice Sword: doubt they'd drop an 'actual' attack.
Freezing Touch: again, this is more a mix of damage and utility, like Siphon Life or Cobra Strike. Doubt it'd be dropped.
Frozen Aura: Have the devs ever dropped a tier 9? Nope.
Ice Slick: It's an amazing mitigating power...but it does no damage. Dropping it wouldn't affect the AT's damage output. It'd actually increase it...but lower mitigation.
That said, I'd be surprised if the devs right out dropped any PBAoE attacks anymore....wait, scratch that. They'd probably get rid of the whirling attacks from the weapon sets since it hasn't been shown we keep weapon PBAoEs...and considering they aren't as powerful as the cones, I really don't mind.
don't stalkers get a higher crit chance on sleeping targets? Wouldn't that be like... extremely awesome with frozen aura? Surely they wouldn't keep that in.
I'm having a hard time trying to figure out what power would be dropped for AS looking at this... I'd want ice patch to remain (and not take you out of hide when used), and I'd want frozen aura to stay for the above reason... my hopeful guess would be:
1 ice barrage
2 ice sword
3 frost
4 AS
5 BU
6 Placate
7 ice patch
8 ice slash
9 frozen aura
a set most similar to elec melee. Unfortunately, it seems more likely that FA or ice patch would be dropped :/ which blows either way.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth