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Or you'll need 20 dollars, 2 quaters, 4 dimes, 1 nickle, and 4 pennies.
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Originally Posted by EnigmaBlack
I'm the type of person that likes simplicity. I guess I look at it this way, if I go to the store to buy milk, bread and bacon I know I will use 20 US dollars. Now if it were set up like the game I'd need 6 rupees for the milk, 5 pesos for the bread and 10 Pula for the bacon. It's just WAY too many forms of currency out there IMO.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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There are also brainstorm ideas and tailor tickets. I'm sure there are more out there and while I understand the need to have separate currencies for some specific rewards, some of them can honestly be removed like you stated.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
It's that we have way more than we realistically need.
Inf Prestige Reward Merits Vanguard Merits AE Tickets Alignment Merits Astral Merits Empyrean Merits and then for Salvage Base Salvage(still listed on the market, probably still some in game.) Invention Salvage Candy Canes Halloween Salvage Incarnate Shards Incarnate Threads Alpha Components Thread Components (made with Incarnate Threads) While it generally isn't confusing, it could certainly use some pruning. Prestige seems like a good choice to get rid off. Just use INF but if you want to maintain the INF sink multiply prestige costs by the conversion rate. Needless currency gets removed, necessary INF sink remains. Heck it might even be better, since it'll be more accessible. |
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Or you'll need 20 dollars, 2 quaters, 4 dimes, 1 nickle, and 4 pennies.
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Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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I'd bet that Wentworth's sucks more inf from the game in a good week than the inf->prestige conversion ever has. I have no idea who the "88s" are, but reading this thread I assume they are the top ranked SG. I've never looked at the list, and I doubt I'm the only one.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
It's a good influence sink.
Seeing what the 88's have done, it just makes one realize how much influence is out there and can be gotten by those who are willing. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Naw, Statesman and Positron stated point blank that the idea was to ensure that everyone started from an even start with bases.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I think it's original purpose was less about stopping people from instantly building giant bases and more about forcing a Raid-Focused SG to participate in PvE in order to build up and maintain their base.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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IMHO that's the only good thing to come from that list, but even then the amount of prestige getting taken out of the system is nowhere near enough to even remotely be significant.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
It's a good influence sink.
Seeing what the 88's have done, it just makes one realize how much influence is out there and can be gotten by those who are willing. |
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Well to be perfectly honest I'm only technically "against" the Devs shifting the current conversion rate to a lower level for the reason that, like others have said, I too believe the entire concept of Prestige has far outlived its usefulness. At this point SG bases should be INF based, period.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
But again, that brings up the question of - "So what?"
So someone burns a few billion on the conversion. Does it *matter* that they made 150 million Prestige with a better rate as opposed to 40 million, just to make up some numbers? They're at the top of a pointless list. So what? They get to dainty up their base a bit faster. So what? Why should everyone *else* be penalized - and I don't think you'll find many that say that isn't a highly punitive rate - because a *few* might be able to rush getting a *second* large meeting room or something? It has no effect on anyone else, and if it's designed as an INF sink (which, really, it is,) it has so far failed pretty miserably overall because *of* that rate. Change the rate to make it more attractive to use, pulling more INF out of the system so some private bases can be made more "homey" more quickly. There really *isn't* a downside here. |
I would rather the Devs waste their efforts to overhaul SG bases and remove Prestige entirely from the game than to reduce it down to a trivial level as a band-aid afterthought. My thinking is that it'd be far more silly for it to be set at 1:1 ratio than it would be for it to be completely removed. Prestige should either serve a significant purpose in this game (i.e. as a 500:1 ratio threshold) or none at all.
I consider it the "fix it completely or don't bother with it at all" solution.
Anything else would just be half-baked and semi-pointless.
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I guess that's kind where I was coming from with the ultra high conversion rate. If prestige is to mean anything, you shouldn't be able to purchase it with another currency so cheap. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Well to be perfectly honest I'm only technically "against" the Devs shifting the current conversion rate to a lower level for the reason that, like others have said, I too believe the entire concept of Prestige has far outlived its usefulness. At this point SG bases should be INF based, period.
I would rather the Devs waste their efforts to overhaul SG bases and remove Prestige entirely from the game than to reduce it down to a trivial level as a band-aid afterthought. My thinking is that it'd be far more silly for it to be set at 1:1 ratio than it would be for it to be completely removed. Prestige should either serve a significant purpose in this game (i.e. as a 500:1 ratio threshold) or none at all. I consider it the "fix it completely or don't bother with it at all" solution. Anything else would just be half-baked and semi-pointless. |
I would have no problem removing prestige completely from the game, since it really serves no purpose, and letting anyone just buy what they need for their base with inf.
Leader/Founder of Order Sixty-Six Guardian Server
<QR>
The Powers That Be don't give a rat's <censored> about bases as it is, so why should they care about prestige?
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See, I'm for keeping Prestige, for the simple reason it's a way for "everyone" - not just the marketeers - to feel they're contributing (visibly) to the supergroup, without *losing* anything before 26. So to me, it does have a "significant" purpose in the game. (And not a silly position on the registrar's list.) |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Well to be perfectly honest I'm only technically "against" the Devs shifting the current conversion rate to a lower level for the reason that, like others have said, I too believe the entire concept of Prestige has far outlived its usefulness. At this point SG bases should be INF based, period.
I would rather the Devs waste their efforts to overhaul SG bases and remove Prestige entirely from the game than to reduce it down to a trivial level as a band-aid afterthought. My thinking is that it'd be far more silly for it to be set at 1:1 ratio than it would be for it to be completely removed. Prestige should either serve a significant purpose in this game (i.e. as a 500:1 ratio threshold) or none at all. I consider it the "fix it completely or don't bother with it at all" solution. Anything else would just be half-baked and semi-pointless. |
However, so do INF sinks... *IF* people feel its worthwhile to use them.
The problem with the ratio is that it's so punitive that few people will use it. 1:1 IS silly, yes. 1:250 (twice, or half depending on which side you're looking at, the current rate) itself would be an improvement. But I'd hope they'd put more thought into it.
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I'm with Bill on this for a slightly different reason. Prestige allows players who don't play the market or accrue large sums of Inf to still enjoy bases.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
See, I'm for keeping Prestige, for the simple reason it's a way for "everyone" - not just the marketeers - to feel they're contributing (visibly) to the supergroup, without *losing* anything before 26. So to me, it does have a "significant" purpose in the game. (And not a silly position on the registrar's list.)
However, so do INF sinks... *IF* people feel its worthwhile to use them. The problem with the ratio is that it's so punitive that few people will use it. 1:1 IS silly, yes. 1:250 (twice, or half depending on which side you're looking at, the current rate) itself would be an improvement. But I'd hope they'd put more thought into it. |
If the devs were to switch over to Inf then the prestige prices of base items would probably skyrocket to their Inf equivalents and we probably wouldn't get inf back if we decided to redesign the base like we do know with prestige.
All I know is that Prestige might have been a good idea back during Issue 6 when villains were new, there was no market and SG PvP base raiding was going to be a major part of this game.
Unfortunately the game has evolved so much past that we're left with a lame-duck currency that has essentially no purpose other than to serve as an annoying one-way Influence sink of questionable effectiveness. Base item prices have been lowered so much since the beginning that I would argue the idea of Prestige still serving as a mechanism for people to "feel good about contributing to a SG" is all but moot.
Even though the Devs -ought- to overhaul bases and/or Prestige I have no delusions that they're going to do that anytime soon (if ever) at this point. Sure reducing the conversion rate from 500:1 to like 250:1 would make things easier. But at the same time Influence is so easy to horde now that if you're going to make the effort to do massive conversions at a 250:1 rate then doing them at the 500:1 rate is not really going to slow you down much either. So it takes you two weeks to get a base item by dumping Influence into it instead of one week - not seeing a major problem with that. *shrugs*
I'm still stuck at my original conclusion with all this: If the Devs aren't going to do a fundamental rethink on how SG bases work and how we pay for them then I'm not really sure they should be tinkered with at all.
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Top? Top of what? Top of....oh, THAT list? The one that the vast majority of people never look at, huge majority of newcomers dont even know exists, and that about 99% of people don't care flying faeces about?|
Originally Posted by Mr_Apocalypse
IMO they should have never let prestige be purchased in the first place. If anything the ratio needs to be made more steep to discourage marketeers from buying their SG to the top. Right now its 500:1 need to make it 50,000:1 which would be 100,000,000 for 2000 at the SG recruiter
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@OP: /Signed. The rate is atrocious as it is no. Since bases have NO larger in-game bonuses attached to them now (No more CoP base items, no more base raids, ergo: effectively meaningless) why is it still the way it was?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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^ This too
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'd bet that Wentworth's sucks more inf from the game in a good week than the inf->prestige conversion ever has. I have no idea who the "88s" are, but reading this thread I assume they are the top ranked SG. I've never looked at the list, and I doubt I'm the only one.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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adding my voice to those unhappy about the current state of prestige conversions.
Ignoring anyone is a mistake. You might miss something viral to your cause.
What about giving players some control of their Influence/Prestige ratios?
The game automatically "adjusts" this ratio as you increase in level. Why not let us have some choice about chipping more or less of our earnings to Influence or Prestige? Players who are all about building enhancements and changing their costumes would favor Influence earning, while players who are all about their SG base would favor Prestige.
On our end, it might be as simple as a trip to a contact (press agent? image consultant?) to set a choice for high, regular, or low Prestige. It would simulate heroes in comics who are primarily associated with supergroups (like the Fantastic Four) and heroes who belong to supergroups but are primarily regarded as solitary/independent (like Bat-Man).
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Another thing to consider is allowing a supergroup to set a size limit that would adjust the amount of Prestige its members earn.
A couple of friends and I created three sibling heroes that we only ever played as a team of three. We were NEVER going to be able to earn enough Prestige to make a decent base, so we didn't bother.
If a size limit were set at registration (solo, max of 10, 50, 100, whatever), Prestige earnings might be adjusted for the size of the group so that it takes a three-person SG four times as long to get a Teleport Chamber as a thirty-person SG, instead of taking ten times as long. An SG that wants to increase its size maximum might be able to buy that increase with a fee designed to prevent gaming the system.
It would not be completely unreasonable to limit base size and/or equipment available to smaller SGs for "balance", but I will point out the Bat Cave, the Baxter Building, and the Fortress of Solitude.
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Another thing that might help is to have all heroes earn Prestige whether they are in SG mode or not (maybe at half rate when not). That would let a Level 40 hero who suddenly gets the urge to form an SG to contribute a significant amount to base purchases, rather than starting with the 20K Prestige handout and a hopeful look on his face.
A refund on Prestige when quitting an SG (ten or twenty-five percent?) would also be nice.
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Interesting idea but then I can see a bunch of SG's demanding that their members either run at maximum prestige earning or get booted from the SG. And while a Vet player will be seasoned enough to tell them to shove it where the sun don't shine a new player may quit the game because the players are a bunch of ***holes.|
Originally Posted by jackattack
What about giving players some control of their Influence/Prestige ratios?
The game automatically "adjusts" this ratio as you increase in level. Why not let us have some choice about chipping more or less of our earnings to Influence or Prestige? Players who are all about building enhancements and changing their costumes would favor Influence earning, while players who are all about their SG base would favor Prestige. On our end, it might be as simple as a trip to a contact (press agent? image consultant?) to set a choice for high, regular, or low Prestige. It would simulate heroes in comics who are primarily associated with supergroups (like the Fantastic Four) and heroes who belong to supergroups but are primarily regarded as solitary/independent (like Bat-Man). |
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| A couple of friends and I created three sibling heroes that we only ever played as a team of three. We were NEVER going to be able to earn enough Prestige to make a decent base, so we didn't bother. |
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| Another thing to consider is allowing a supergroup to set a size limit that would adjust the amount of Prestige its members earn. |
It would not be completely unreasonable to limit base size and/or equipment available to smaller SGs for "balance", but I will point out the Bat Cave, the Baxter Building, and the Fortress of Solitude.[/quote]
/unsigned
To easy to meta game even with harsh restrictions. For example players can simply make a series of SG's with small SG sizes and use the coalition feature and email feature to get access to them. Picture a main RP base and a series of small TP bases and Storage bases in coalition.
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| Another thing that might help is to have all heroes earn Prestige whether they are in SG mode or not (maybe at half rate when not). That would let a Level 40 hero who suddenly gets the urge to form an SG to contribute a significant amount to base purchases, rather than starting with the 20K Prestige handout and a hopeful look on his face. |
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| A refund on Prestige when quitting an SG (ten or twenty-five percent?) would also be nice. |
Oh and no you can't get it refunded as influence. That would be a horrible exploit to the game where people would use powerleveling to farm SG membership for the inf refund when the character quit.
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So which below stack like that? How many Vanguard Merits to the Reward merit? Or AE tickets to the Astral merit?|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Or you'll need 20 dollars, 2 quaters, 4 dimes, 1 nickle, and 4 pennies.
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Cos 4 quarters is a dollar and 10 dimes is also a dollar. That is one currency with different denominations. Not seperate currencies that we have in game
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Originally Posted by DMystic
It's that we have way more than we realistically need.
Inf Prestige Reward Merits Vanguard Merits AE Tickets Alignment Merits Astral Merits Empyrean Merits |
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You seem to be under the impression that prestige belongs to characters. Unforunately it doesn't. Prestige belongs solely to the SG and players can't take it with them when they leave. You can't get a refund.
Oh and no you can't get it refunded as influence. That would be a horrible exploit to the game where people would use powerleveling to farm SG membership for the inf refund when the character quit. |
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Or he might quit the SG because the players are a bunch of ***holes. The same reason players quit SGs (and teams) now. What keeps current SGs from demanding that their members put in a certain number of hours to earn a Prestige quota? |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Interesting idea but then I can see a bunch of SG's demanding that their members either run at maximum prestige earning or get booted from the SG. And while a Vet player will be seasoned enough to tell them to shove it where the sun don't shine a new player may quit the game because the players are a bunch of ***holes.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Depends on what you and your friends considered a decent base. Even back in the beginning it was possible to make a decent fully functional base even if it was just on the smallest plotsize.
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In casual play (a couple-few hours a night, one night per week) a small group is not going to acquire enough Prestige to make a dent in those amounts. At an average of 20 Prestige per win, that's 12,000 villains defeated for the first and 29,000 for the second.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
To easy to meta game even with harsh restrictions. For example players can simply make a series of SG's with small SG sizes and use the coalition feature and email feature to get access to them. Picture a main RP base and a series of small TP bases and Storage bases in coalition.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Actually all I see this doing is discouraging players from joining SG's. In todays game we don't need the SG teleporters to get around, and we can use our own characters to store far more items than we ever could in an SG base. And our use of global channels puts us in commincation with as many as 37,500 other players.
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I think this would actually promote a larger number of smaller SGs, which I think would be beneficial. Players might form more theme-based or story-based SGs, rather than simply recruiting as many players as possible to max their Prestige totals. And players might choose (to stay with) SGs because they enjoy them, not because they don't want to lose the base's features or because they've invested so much time and Prestige.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You seem to be under the impression that prestige belongs to characters. Unforunately it doesn't. Prestige belongs solely to the SG and players can't take it with them when they leave. You can't get a refund.
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The hero generates Prestige, which is donated or assigned to the SG. The Justice League (for example) gains prestige not only for what the members do as a team, but also for what the members do individually (albeit not as much). If Superman quit the Justice League, it would lose prestige; if he joined the All-Star Squad, it would gain prestige. Prestige belongs to the hero, and he takes it with him where he goes.
We can't get a refund because that is how the rules were written. They can be rewritten so that players have more and better choices about SG membership and base availability.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Oh and no you can't get it refunded as influence. That would be a horrible exploit to the game where people would use powerleveling to farm SG membership for the inf refund when the character quit.
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If heroes generated Prestige continually, even at a reduced rate outside of an SG, and got Prestige back when they quit an SG (as Prestige), then more players would have better options for building bases.
Prestige was built broken. This is a system in which hundreds of players are participating to allow a few players to design and equip what are arguably their bases, not the groups', and somehow gives those players control over the other players in their SG.
By putting Prestige in the hands of all the players who generate it, rather than in the hands of a few players who run SGs, more players will be able to fully enjoy this aspect of the game, which currently (effectively) bars participation by small groups and solo players.
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Originally Posted by jackattack
Or he might quit the SG because the players are a bunch of ***holes. The same reason players quit SGs (and teams) now. What keeps current SGs from demanding that their members put in a certain number of hours to earn a Prestige quota?
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Well I won't name names but over the years I've seen several groups that actually did that which is why I mentioned it. I mean I do like the idea enough that it's interesting, but I also wanted to point out the cons so the whole thing can be considered good and bad so to speak.
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By revised costs (not available then) a base with a Teleport Bay, a MedBay, and the Oversight Room to run them costs about 260K; a base with Teleport Chamber 1 and two Telepads with Beacons, an Infirmary with Inspiration Collector and one improved Reclamator, the Oversight Room to run them, and a Workshop with Salvage Storage and one Personal Storage Vault costs about 600K. And those are on the smallest plotsize. In casual play (a couple-few hours a night, one night per week) a small group is not going to acquire enough Prestige to make a dent in those amounts. At an average of 20 Prestige per win, that's 12,000 villains defeated for the first and 29,000 for the second. |
So a group of players that thinks ahead and creates 15 Praet characters for SG filler will get 1,800,000 prestige for their SG. That buys a lot of stuff. Even if they kick the SG fillers after building the base they will only lose 300k. They won't even notice the loss because they'll have so much of the base built already.
I've used this method to build 2 solo bases so far. Only my being a severe altoholic on multiple servers has prevented me from getting the second base finished faster. I've only gotten 8 of the 15 Praets I made up to level 20 so far.
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| SGs can abuse the Coalition feature this way now. |
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| We've never technically needed SG teleporters to get around, but they are convenient and that is one of the reasons a base is good to have. My character can store X salvage items, and Salvage Storage stores a hundred items; X + 100 is more than X. And if it comes down to it I can create a channel for my friends and me, or for a non-SG group, or for left-hand curling enthusiasts. You are claiming that my idea would discourage players from joining SGs by offering reasons that SGs are not necessary. |
Or am I misunderstanding what you are suggesting? If so please feel free to correct me.
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| I think this would actually promote a larger number of smaller SGs, which I think would be beneficial. Players might form more theme-based or story-based SGs, rather than simply recruiting as many players as possible to max their Prestige totals. And players might choose (to stay with) SGs because they enjoy them, not because they don't want to lose the base's features or because they've invested so much time and Prestige. |
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| Unfortunately, this is a philosophical argument about an arbitrary game mechanic, but I'll take a shot anyway. |
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| I never suggested that. |
That part was added because in the past when someone suggested taking prestige with them and it was explained why they couldn't they asked if they could get it as inf instead.
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| Prestige was built broken. |
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| This is a system in which hundreds of players are participating to allow a few players to design and equip what are arguably their bases, not the groups', and somehow gives those players control over the other players in their SG. |
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| By putting Prestige in the hands of all the players who generate it, rather than in the hands of a few players who run SGs, more players will be able to fully enjoy this aspect of the game, which currently (effectively) bars participation by small groups and solo players. |
1. The players who hold the positions of leadership are still the ones who decide what they spend prestige on not the people that generate it.
2. I am arguably one of the most casual of players and I have not felt that I was barred from making SG's/bases. In fact it's gotten easier and easier for small groups and solo players to make bases.
Several of the points you have brought up are more concrened with the base building feature as a whole rather than a simple prestige "fix". And I personally agree that bases need a complete redesign from the ground up. But I think after 5-6 years of begging many of us have lost hope that anything will ever be done.
Edit: Oh and Jack I just wanted to say thanks for discussing these points in a civil fashion. It's a relief when someone doesn't automatically jump to the defensive and assume everything is a personal attack.
I havent found them confusing yet. So what exactly is making them confusing?
Is it just because it's not a "Gold, Silver, Bronze" style thing?
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575