Can a tanker get close to a scrapper?

I'm asking this because I saw, in a thread where some 'uber player' says Tankers are useless to his optimized teams, Nihili said several times that her FA/SS Tanker was better than any scrapper she'd ever had.

She didn't get into specifics since it was kind of a 'flamey' thread, but that kept me wondering.. Can a Tanker get close, or equal to a scrapper in terms of damage? I always found my Tankers too weak.

Now I'm not saying I want a Tanker that deals FM/SD scrapper levels of damage, but I've always wanted to do a fire/fire combo, since I already own a SS/Fire Brute and Fire/Fire scraps look too squishy for me, I rolled a Fire/Fire Tanker.

My question is, can a Fire/Fire Tanker, one of the most damaging from the AT, rival a 'normal' scrapper in damage output? By 'normal' I mean average such as a MA/WP, A Katana/SR, a KM/DA, combos that aren't known for massive damage output compared to FM/SD for example.

And Nihili if you see this thread can you get into specifics as to why you find your Tanker better than your scrappers? I know you are a very talented and experienced scrapper player so I'd like your opinion very much.

Yes, FA/SS/Soul Tankers can have scrapper level DPS.

Tanks will out damage scrappers only when talking about AoE based tanks versus ST based scrappers.

Thanks Amy, since I was kinda afraid to do a fire/fire scrapper and even a Brute I wanted to try the 'squishiest melee combo' on a Tanker, good to know it can be as good as a regular scrapper.

I just whipped out a build in 5 minutes but I think this one has good damage potential, I'd like to have a PPP AoE but Combustion and FSC are good enough I guess. This can be a very damaging tank right? 1 purple will almost cap me to most defenses although I wish I could get more recharge, well that's gonna happen anyway if I really enjoy the toon. I like RoTP so... will Assault make a big difference? I really wanted to fit RoTP here:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.942
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Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Fire Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(3), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(3), RctvArm-ResDam(5)
Level 1: Scorch -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(7), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 2: Blazing Aura -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(9), Erad-Acc/Rchg(9), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(11), EndRdx-I(13)
Level 4: Combustion -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(13), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(15), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17)
Level 6: Healing Flames -- Dct'dW-Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(19), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(19), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(21), Dct'dW-Heal(21)
Level 8: Consume -- Zinger-Taunt(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg(23), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(25), Zinger-Acc/Rchg(25), Zinger-Taunt/Rng(27), Zinger-Dam%(29)
Level 10: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(27), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 12: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 14: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(31), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RctvArm-ResDam(31)
Level 16: Plasma Shield -- S'fstPrt-ResKB(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/EndRdx(33), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(33), HO:Ribo(33)
Level 18: Burn -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(23), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(34), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 20: Taunt -- Zinger-Dam%(A)
Level 22: Build Up -- Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(A), Rec'dRet-Pcptn(36), HO:Membr(36), HO:Membr(36)
Level 24: Temperature Protection -- S'fstPrt-ResKB(A)
Level 26: Fiery Embrace -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(37), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Erad-Acc/Rchg(39), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(39), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 32: Weave -- GftotA-Def/EndRdx(A), GftotA-Run+(42), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(42), LkGmblr-Rchg+(43)
Level 35: Incinerate -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(43), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(43), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(45), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(46), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 41: Gloom -- Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(48), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 44: Darkest Night -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- HO:Enzym(A), HO:Enzym(50), LkGmblr-Rchg+(50)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(42)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(40), P'Shift-End%(40)
------------
Set Bonus Totals:

• 2.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
• 2.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
• 18% Defense(Smashing)
• 18% Defense(Lethal)
• 3% Defense(Fire)
• 3% Defense(Cold)
• 18% Defense(Energy)
• 18% Defense(Negative)
• 3% Defense(Psionic)
• 10.5% Defense(Melee)
• 10.5% Defense(Ranged)
• 3% Defense(AoE)
• 9.45% Max End
• 43.8% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 7% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 4% Enhancement(Heal)
• 5% FlySpeed
• 330.3 HP (17.6%) HitPoints
• 5% JumpHeight
• 5% JumpSpeed
• Knockback (Mag -8)
• Knockup (Mag -8)
• MezResist(Immobilize) 12.7%
• MezResist(Sleep) 1.65%
• MezResist(Terrorized) 4.95%
• 20% Perception
• 4.5% (0.08 End/sec) Recovery
• 20% (1.56 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 1.26% Resistance(Fire)
• 1.26% Resistance(Cold)
• 12.5% RunSpeed

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My FA/SS/Soul tanker did more damage (ST and AOE) than my scrappers (including a FM/SD) as well as having more survivability - for my specific playstyle, that is, popping inspirations as needed and tanking highend content.

It's about all there is to it. FA/SS/Soul is an outlier as these two powersets and epic interact exceptionally well with each other. For example, doublestacked Rage would give you almost twice normal tanker damage (going from 200% to 360%, albeit with 20 seconds out of 120 spent dealing less damage due to crashes), and Gloom fills a gap in a SS chain.

That said, any well built Fire/anything tanker can give low/medium damage scrappers a run for their money. Burn is really big, especially on ATs where it doesn't cause stuff to scatter to the four winds.

A properly-built Tanker can beat many Scrappers for damage output. A properly-built Scrapper can beat many Tankers for survivability. The archetypes overlap, particularly given the flexibility that IOs give you.

An uber Fire/Fire Tanker will probably put out significantly more damage than my Katana/Dark Scrapper (outside of AV fight DPS). My Katana/Dark will probably also be significantly more survivable than that Tanker (outside of inspirations or buffs).

It's getting hard for me to not start a FA/SS Tanker or SS/FA Brute. The damage is just crazy good plus sufficient survivability. That's what I put my Fire/Shield Scrapper together for, but he just seems eclipsed by at least the Brute, and Nihilii is saying even the Tanker. Ouch. Besides, I love Super Strength. I hate the Rage crash, but it's a lot milder than it used to be, and I love the rest of the set well enough to get over it. I recently finished leveling my Invulnerability/Super Strength Tanker, most of that solo (I don't like actually tanking for a team - I just have an addiction to survivability). A Fire/SS Tanker should be somewhat faster to level, then I can decide if I want to kit it out with the best that influence can buy. Or do I go Brute for even more insane damage? Hmmmm. Yes, I need to give in, but to which? Hmmmm.

Yeah, Fire Tanks can definitely compete. However, my viewpoint on the subject is I'd just roll it as a Brute instead.

Thanks for the feedback guys. You're right Nihili, Rage is a monster of a power and goes well with F. Embrace. What I'm hoping, as Werner said, is that my Fire/Fire tanker will do good damage and be very survivable, I didn't want to make a squishy fire/fire melee toon since FM has no mitigation. If they can compete that's great by me, although I don't expect SS-Rage levels of course. Well actually I'd play a Fire/Fire Stalker but if they released cardboard armor for Stalkers I'd play it, I have a soft spot for them.

Fiery, I have a SS/FA brute, I know how powerful it is, and since I came back I've been rolling many brutes, I like the AT so much I rerolled my 50 DM/DA scrapper into a brute (and I'm leveling a Claws/DA too, besides just having played for an hour with a Stone/Elec, the only high level toon I respecced for inherent fitness after I came back, too busy exploring Praetoria and rolling new alts). But I have no Tankers besides one I haven't played in a long time (Ice/Fire, his damage wasn't bad with the damage aura and fire mele). But I wanted to try a Fire/Fire something. Tried a blaster in the past, too squishy (although I made a DP/Fire blaster, I never died/used insps so much in the first 10 levels, but no prob, usually I'm a teamer but I'm soloing Praetoria to see the arcs - the fact that I'm at 0/x2 isn't helping but I refuse to turn it down lol). Plus only Tankers get Combustion which I love (on Tankers, not Blasters lol). I should have a good ST chain with Scorch-Incin-GFS-Gloom and AoE looks good with Combustion and FSC.

I remember once (long time ago) having to 'tank' with my DM/DA scrapper because the Fire/Fire tanker was getting shredded by all the psi damage, and while I was focusing on the hard targets he was cleaning up the other mobs pretty fast, and that was before the buff to burn and FE. When farming Dark Astoria in your 20s was 'cool' I could do it on my Ice/Fire faster than my claws/SR scrapper (zombies are weak to fire iirc) and with one hand since I didn't have to worry about survival.

I'm stating the obvious, but the reason FA pumps out so much AoE is that it basically has two damage auras and a second BU. Damage auras should be the best source of AoE damage. Add that to any melee set that also pumps out AoE damage and it's tough to compete against. FA is without a doubt the squishiest armor set using SOs. It's little more than a blaster with ok mezz protection, a heal, and more HP. And then you factor in IOs and Incarnate....

There are just some things that shouldn't be played as a Tank... SS And FA are 2 examples....

I'm thinking with the upcoming Titan Weapons it will be more skewed towards Scrappers. With the Momentum mechanic and getting faster animations for every swing you do, I think that would give more chances to Critical. That's still to be seen though, and probably won't be until near the end of the year.

for me, tankers are more of the AOE, and scrappers are more single target. Ive yet to see a tank do what kinda damage ya can deal on a scapper, but to me there is a lot more to playing than just DPS. Now take that with a grain of salt, as i havent been back to long, and in dont team with some crazzy IO build that often, so there might be slight expections to this rule.

as for someones ideal optimized team and you not belonging, dont even bother with that sorta thinking. for me anyone thats going for some optimized team is just not worth my time even if i fit exactly. they are typically unreasonable in their expectations, or just want you to play exactly how they want. Like when teams send tells asking for a kin, cause all they want is SB. For me that means avoid that team like the plauge, even though i could simply log an alt.


I just like to play on teams for fun, and the crazzier the team the better. so its not opitimal, ahh well, typically it means more fun !

With stuff like Super Strength on their way to Scrappers eventually, this question will boil down to "Compared to what Scrapper Primary/Secondary set?" more than it already has. Also can't wait for Stone Melee. I've had a few ideas kicking around for Scrapper characters on several of the sets that we don't have yet and I'll finally be able to make some of them starting with I21.

The biggest "problem" with tanks, if you can call it that, is that at the highest levels (fully buffed/IOed out/what have you), brutes (and scrappers, to a different extent) are generally going to be superior almost every time. Damage cap is higher (and damage is higher on average), both share the same defensive caps, and brutes are generally just as tough in situations that matter. Realistically speaking, most things that would kill a fire armor brute would likely kill a fire armor tank as well, short of SO situations where IOs and the like don't exist.

Functionally, they're genuinely different at lower levels, with brutes having a blatant shift to damage and tanks to survivability. As you creep up to 50s, sets, IOs, and incarnates, brutes overwhelm tank defenses while often getting superior damage to boot. Since tanks are the best defense in the game, you can't really get better than that and their damage at end game content scales about the same as brutes to arguably worse.

The last problem is that damage on a day to day level is extremely hard to measure, aside from rough guesses. In a given situation, you can use benchmark tests (like timing a TV farm, killing a pylon, etc) but in most team situations, it's simply impossible to factor in the other team on a near constant level. What if the tanker is in more often and gets more fulcrum shifts than the scrapper scrapperlocking on another target? What if one's aoes keep missing or just having bad luck in positioning? There is simply no given "DPS Meter" that lets us easily and constantly measure these situations, which prevent us from having a real benchmark in legitimate play outside of extremely focused and complicated tests (which again, still fail to account for chance and team mates).

If you're going for damage, just pick what looks the most fun. You simply can't go wrong with fire regardless of spec, much like there's quite a bit of failsafes like SS and FA or SD. Generally, some ATs function better than others with the same sets (Dual Blades being a shining example, compare tank/stalker with Scrapper and look at the huge gulf between the two) and some sets are just plain bad for certain ATs. Your checklist should look as follows:

Do I want to survive well? Pick Invuln, WP
Survive/DPS? ELA, SR, DA
Sheer DPS? Shield, FA
Do I want AOE? ELM, BA, SS
Do I want ST? DM, MA, WM, Claws
Do I want a mix? BA, Kat

And the list goes on. Choose appropriate AT, call it a day. It's as simple as that. (Some powersets above can be moved around, use with as many grain of salts as you wish)

Let's see some maths! Even bad maths!

Rounding arcanatime to .23s, I figured a base dps of 85.4 for an MA scrapper, not including crits, using an attack chain of SK-CS-SK-CAK.

For a fire tank, I used scorch-FS-incin-GFS (probably not the optimal chain, someone else can feel free to chime in) and got 51.9 dps.
Multiply by 1.15 for bruising and we're up to 59.7 dps. Which is probably not fair to the scrapper since I disregarded crits.

(85.4 x1.1=94ish for the scrap with crits)

Let's say we add in Fiery Embrace: assuming a 60s rech, 20s duration, and 40% dmg boost (no idea if these numbers are accurate, or representative of what most are seeing)- this would push ST dps to 67.6. Not bad, still a ways short from the scrapper.

SS is probly even closer, but that's enuff maths for me for one night, especially given that I've probably made some errors somewhere. But this maybe sheds some light on "How much more dmg?".