Bases: The Business?

I see and hear of base builders hiring out their services for cash and fabulous prizes and think to myself, "That sounds nice." However, I keep bumping into the same impossible question every time I'm talking to people about what we can do with their base: How much?

I have no idea what the going rate is for hired designers. A flat rate is just dumb. Basing it off of item count or square footage seems off in so many ways, chiefly that they don't take effort and quality into account. Is there some way to figure out how to balance quality, effort, size, and scale in a fair pricing strategy? I'd rather avoid breaking out the upper level math.

What do the 'professionals' out there do?

As a person who deals with contractors in real life I can tell you that most of them probably haggle over each job. Standards may be anywhere from great to shoddy though so the buyer should beware. As in RL some 'professionals' will not be that good and some that say 'sure, I can help a little' might be great but humble.

Best way to find out is to go to a base built by the designer in question or at least request screenshots from them.

Haveta agree with Comicsluvr on this.

Even in RL, even where there are "industry standards", each deal is it's own thing. It all depends on what each party feels is the best value for the work.

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I expect variation, especially since this sort of thing doesn't seem to be openly discussed very often, but I'd rather not go into a 'job' and over or under shoot the market (however disorganized and fragmented the market is) by a huge margin.

Looking at this from the "contractor's" perspective, is anyone willing to either share their pricing system or at least drop a hint or two about a reasonable baseline or starting point?

While I don't hire myself out (I have too much on my plate already) the one way that I can think of giving a good price is figure out about how much your character would make just playing in about an hours time and then that is your hourly rate. While we love base building it does take away time from doing other things like playing.

On a side note my husband will say that I like to base build sometimes more than actually play.

When being approached by a person and asked how much it would cost to build their base, a lot of factors come into account -- not the least of which is do they have a basic theme, design or even just a list of the kind of rooms that they want. The worst kind of customer is someone who doesn't know what they want -- they'll never be happy.

Either way, it needs to be made clear that this will cost several hundred real dollars at the minimum, to several thousand at the high end, simply from the extensive amount of time that good base building takes.

Payments should be on a deliverable basis, broken up into several (4-10) milestones over the course of development, with an up-front payment to kick things off.

This will help to sort the wheat from the chaff, and you'll usually only have to deal with people who are serious and who have the money. It will also help prevent you from being stiffed out of a promised fee -- as you'll always be a milestone ahead, from the kick-off. They don't pay, you stop working.

-- Vivian

Paying real money for anything in-game (except payments to NCSoft) is prohibited and can get your account banned.
I guess Vivian is trying to be funny?

While I was also under the impression that most folks do this for in-game compensation, I'm not sure if asking for real money is actually breaking the EULA.

• It would not require use of another person's account.
• It is not transferring items to another person's toon (though it's possible to transfer some "personal items" to the base). Therefore you are not paying for the advancement of one toon.
• Certain items still require the SG to meet the criteria for crafting (badge unlocks in SG mode).
• You would essentially be paying for someone's personal time, which is where I think the wiggle room/loophole is. It's the same way some folks get away with charging PL fees....

Let me start off by saying that in addition to the bases I've done for SGs I've been affiliated with in the last 4-plus years on Virtue, I've been hired to do a few bases in my time as well. Just to name one you've heard about, I'll let the cat out of the bag here about one. I was the one Dechs Kaison chose a few months ago from the boards here to build the medical center and research labs for his base. (Again, my thanks to Dechs for letting me be the one to bring his vision to life in-game. It was a lot of fun to work in that style and for a great client.)

As a builder, I hadn't considered paying with RL money for these services, to be honest, though I'll freely admit that if the opportunity arose, I'd certainly consider it to cover my game expenses (boosters and subs for two accounts adds up lol). To date I've solely been paid in inf and in-game items. It's sometimes a case of "I have this timeframe to work with, for this amount of inf if done on time" and there are others who simply pay whenever a new room is completed.

You'll find that many people who build for others have varying viewpoints on how they approach the work and the quality they provide.

As Dechs can attest to, I like to go through the existing base (if there is one) or show some of my existing work while chatting with the prospective client about what ideas I have to bring to the project and how I can execute them. I take notes as to what's needed, any kind of specific requirements that are involved for style/items/function/RP/whatever, what badges are currently held by the SG, stuff like that. Don't be afraid to ask for references and samples of a builder's existing work. Most will have access to at least some of them. I'd like to think that this is how most hired base builders would operate.

An important consideration is to remember the Prestige budget we're working with. I've seen some groups that had a certain amount they'd been building for a long time specifically to have something done. I had another client who told me "if you run low, holler and we'll just take care of that. Use whatever you need." Everyone's level of resources will be different, and its important to take that into account when you start planning it out in your head. Don't accept a job that you can't do within the Prestige limitations for that group.

Once the work begins, I tend to do a small sample area and then ask for a lot of feedback based on the style I'm working with to make sure we're on the same page. It's happened on occasion that someone has actually said "Oh actually, I was thinking more like x instead of y" and if it's caught early, this is easily taken into account for the rest of the project. Once the client agrees that the style is what they're looking for, it's off to the races at that point and the building blitz is on.

I think that the most important thing for any hired builder to consider is this -- you've been handed the keys to someone else's castle. You've been entrusted with bringing the vision they have in their head into the virtual world of City of Heroes. They've asked for a medical center, their own X-Mansion, the Watchtower, the Sanctum Sanctorum, an ancient ruin, the TARDIS, or whatever, and if you can't provide that, you need to be up front about that.

This is not a small matter, in my opinion. I take matters of trust very seriously, and I am always disappointed when I hear of people whose base isn't really what they asked for. I take pride in my work, but unfortunately not everyone does these days, just like in RL. Again, don't be afraid to ask for references.

All of this is what both hired builders and potential clients need to look at when sitting down to find an agreement on base building.

I have contracted to design/create bases on Freedom for a few years now. Like people have said before there is no standard for how much is to be paid.

Things to consider:
1. How large of a base is to be designed
2. How much detail is desired... minimalist...to massive
3. Is there a time frame? Do you want it done in one month? two month?
4. The skill level of the designer. This is obviously subjective and dependent on past creations as well as..
5. The theme... For example I charge more for tech themed bases than I do arcane because I am more comfortable and feel more "free" designing in an arcane style.

I will not take a contract if asked when what they want they say "Make it look cool." Yeah that doesn't help me out in the slightest. I need to know if there is a theme to the SG...something you want specifically etc. If I am told to make it "look cool" inevitably my idea of "cool" is all of a sudden not what they wanted

I have never charged RL money to do a base. I do charge INF though because the time I am spending completing your base is time I am not playing the game. Unfortunately there is no standard; some people combine inf with other services/items. One base I did was a 2 billion inf contract with a PVP Gladiator proc as payment. One base I did was 1 billion and a PL to 50 for a toon. Some designers only charge 300-500 million but may take 3 months to finish the job. So yes there are many things to consider

My advice... know what it is you want. Interview and have an open dialogue with the designer before anything is set in stone.

I accept donations of agreed upon amounts to do basework. I even have a chart to help me calculte how much time it will take for each room, and make sure it works out to no less than $12.00/Hour.

Others than laber time, time to completion plays a role, as does Prestige budget.

There's also the pivot value of supply and demand. Some of you are talking hundreds to thousands of US dollars for a base build, but now your clients are only people who are willing to spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on a construct that they do not legally or even virtually own (thanks, TOS!). And while I'm aware that this market exists, it does not represent the whole of the accessible playerbase for these exchanges.

I find it more accessible to work off of in-game values, and so I will continue to consort with players and builders who do exchanges based on influence and in-game items. Maybe Paragon Points, if they introduce a system of player exchange for them.

I hope this doesn't derail the discussion at hand, but City of Heroes is a private service run by a business that operates by its policies, and your actions are not protected by law. They can suspend your account if they feel you're in violation, no matter how justified you feel. Your only retaliation is to sue, and well, good luck with that.

Charging real money is playing with fire. You can try it, others have succeeded, but don't trick yourself into thinking it's condoned.

I generally charge in game items and Inf when I'm building for someone. However, I have had people offer time cards to me before. Their reasoning was that if I am spending all of my Sub-time on their base, I really shouldn't have to pay for it. If someone feels that donating a time card to me is a fair way of compensating my time, I don't object.