Defenders Damage

I was choosing to argue from the viewpoint of those of us who prefer *not* to spend the majority of their game time grinding trials to get Lore pets. And if you read my posts, my point was that Defenders *don't* need more damage. I'm not the one arguing for more. Although I, of course, wouldn't argue if they DID get more.

Sure, haven't heard that before...

"Don't wanna have to grind to 38 until I get my first powerful attack"
"Don't wanna have to grind for influence so I can get extra recharge in my build"
"Don't wanna have to grind till 50 so I can fit purple procs in"

Want better performance? You have to work for it.

�If we would come together and be great role models, it would be amazing to see how the next generation turns out.�

i rAed good.

Fortunately, I don't have to grind for the enhancements I choose to use. I don't have to grind to 38 to be powerful (except in the case of Stone Armor where I had to more or less "grind" to 32 to get Granite ((largely via TF's and still having fun)), and thus be useful by my definition). I choose not to use the outrageously expensive purple (or PvP) IO's, and thus don't have to grind for it. I don't "work" for my improved performance. I enjoy playing the game as it is meant to be played (having fun running missions/TF's with friends and/or PuG's), and build my characters as my budget allows. If I can't afford to IO a character as I choose when I choose to do it, I generally shelve the character until funds permit.

But then, I'm strange in that I also enjoy doing things that we (in my opinion) are not particularly intended to do in the current game environment. Like solo GM's on one of the supposed lowest damage (in sheer DPS output, not accounting for debuffs) AT's and blast sets in the game. Or fire farming +2/x8 solo on an Ice tank with no Incarnate powers outside of T3 Spiritual. Or attempting (several times, with no success of yet, but it WILL happen) a +4 MoSTF without building a VERY specific team of AT's/powersets.

Just two days ago, I crafted my first Lore *ever* (Carnies, because perma-Forge for 5 minutes on a tank is hilarious) on my main tank. Why? Because I had apparently accumulated 3 Notices and enough shards to come up with a total of 220 Threads, and by sheer luck, had the Rare component I needed. I didn't grind for it, and I still don't see a noticeable improvement in my ability to perform whatever task I feel like performing, be it radios, TF's, or tips.

Now that I've gone off on a random rant-y sounding tangent... I'll sum up:

This is a game. We are intended to have fun. You only have to "work" (or grind, take your pick on terms, they're the same, as far as I am concerned. But, that's my personal opinion) to get better performance if you have a "MUST HAVE NNNAAAAAOOOO GIVE IT TO ME NAAAOOOO!!!!" attitude. I've spent the last year and a half across two game accounts, and something to the tune of 12 respecs (and three builds with the Incarnate stuff) getting one character to the point where it can do what I want it to do. I'm patient like that.

I'm sure I'll get my Lore or Destiny or whatever on my Defender... Eventually. As soon as I discover that I have enough Notices and Threads accumulated from random gameplay that I can use roughly 100 of them just on the XP to unlock the slot so I don't have to grind trials for it.

I'll be honest... I have no idea what that means. >.>

I apologize if this sounded like I was ranting, or making personal attacks, that was not my intent. I get a bit "over enthusiastic" when trying to make a point sometimes. There *is* a reason other than the standard login issues for why I don't post very much. lol

Yes this is a game. It's also a game that rewards effort and diligence, and that's something some "want it nao" people don't understand. Simply put, people who are willing to spend significant time playing the game should get rewarded appropriately.

I think you'd agree with me that in this game, you don't have to grind to get your uber character, and you don't need an uber character to have fun.

Wrong.

No, he's right. Lore pets having good damage != the Defender has good damage. If they were permanent, maybe. But you can only have them out a third of the time.

Actually, maybe he is wrong. You can have teammates almost all the time, unlike Lore pets

Lore pets are entities apart from the Defender's powersets that can enable the multiplicative effects of the Defender's buffs/debuffs. Just like temporary pets and teammates.

That's not the definition of either lore pets or temporary pets and teammates, sorry.

You can't compare apples to oranges, and then say apples are the same as oranges because both are round and juicy.

Once I can summon teammates wherever I want with a click of a button, can have them regardless of how many people I have in a team or how many charges I have left, and control them like pets, then they'd be identical to lore pets.

Do you think the following statement makes sense?: "A nuke has good damage != the defender has good damage. If you could use a nuke all the time, maybe. But you can only fire it off every 2 minutes or so."

Not a great example though as most defender nukes don't contribute as much damage as lore pets do.

I'm sorry, but it is inarguably a defining aspect of all of them. One that is particularly pertinent to the titular issue.

You can, however, say that they're both fruit and anyone who disagreed with you on the point would look quite foolish.

That's not what you're saying though. You're saying lore pets are identical to teammates, not that they share defining aspects.

I never said they were identical. I said that they buff defender damage in the same way. And then I noted that all of them "are entities apart from the Defender's powersets that can enable the multiplicative effects of the Defender's buffs/debuffs." Nowhere did I say they are identical. Whether they are identical is, indeed, a moot point within the scope of the titular issue.

You said:

They're not. You cannot summon teammates with a click of a button regardless of how many players are in your team, and control them like pets. Therefore their damage contribution is significantly different.

I, for one, am not saying that Lore pets are not a useful tool. Just that they are seperate from the AT, and thus of limited relevance to questions of balance within the AT. Which is to say that AT x isn't doing enough damage simply because exterior tool y (be it temporary powers, pool powers, IOs, or inspirations) allows them to overcome their AT's limitations.

That doesn't necessarily make it less amusing to solo SS4 Rula-don with a Six-proc of Brawl by popping your Lore pets, a basket of inspirations, and 14 temporary powers - just less relevant to AT balance discussions.

It's not fair to ignore lore pets when they benefit the most from buffs and debuffs, something defenders excel at. Like I said earlier in the thread:

Indeed, I did. And before being questioned further, I expanded on what I meant by "the same way". The overarching point being that none of those things is actually a buff to Defenders, despite the fact that they can increase the Defender's damage (or vice versa depending on POV).

That is an insignificant difference in their damage contribution as regards defenders. Because they work that way for everyone. What's significant with Defenders is the multiplicative effects of their buffs/debuffs in the presence of more friendly entities contributing to damage. The fact that they are exterior to the Defender AT, is what makes them *not* a buff to Defenders. They're just something that everyone can get.

Of course, that multiplicative effect (be it with pets or teammates) is probably why the Devs will ever be loathe to actually buff Defenders' damage.

Unless I'm mistaken, they don't actually benefit any more than teammates. And if you want to argue ease of use, I'll point out that I find it far easier to get on teams than to craft Incarnate stuff. Which is to say I can foresee getting on a team just about any time I play, whereas I don't foresee ever being able to craft Incarnate stuff. And I'll probably have more Temp Pets before ever getting an Incarnate ability, too.

You're too hung up on the fact that Incarnate powers are not AT powers. That's not something that matters when asking the question of "How much damage can your character contribute?". Everyone can get lore pets, sure, but defenders get the most out of lore pets.

They can be more beneficial than teammates during their uptime. Their base numbers are greater than any character, which means they benefit more out of buffs than actual characters, especially considering they are affected by recharge buffs(something temp pets aren't).

As far as finding a team being easier than crafting a pet, that's not the same thing at all. The lore pets are an addition, not a replacement.

It absolutely matters. It's the difference between saying "I can lift a metric ton" and "I can lift a metric ton using a series of pullies" - one implies personal power, the other not so much.

Not really a fair comparison. We're not at a weight-lifting contest.