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Buff or Debuff powers work better for defenders, but any power that is not a buff of debuff is fair game. Consider storm for example. Thunderous clap, Tornado's damage, Lightning storms damage, Gale, the slow from snowstorm, and the knockdown and slows from freezing rain all work equally if not better for controllers IIRC.|
Originally Posted by Syntax42
Defenders do debuff better, last time I checked. Sonic attacks debuff 20% for Defenders and only 15% for Corrupters. The difference adds up fast when you start stacking those debuffs. The Defender primary powers are the same way and work better on Defenders than any other AT. This includes buffing powers as well as debuffs.
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IMO the whole "controllers are the king of controls "defenders are the king of buff/debuff" etc is stupid. They should have just stuck with Primary >secondary for any set and made power pools equal across all at's.
Also, should we really be judging defenders power as acceptable based on a pet you have to grind for post 50? What about the first 50 levels and the time it takes to grind out that pet? You know, the bulk of the game?
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
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With the direction of the game heading more and more towards incarnate content, the "bulk of the game" is quite debatable. In any case, defenders are still very useful on teams, especially on teams that don't have IO's and incarnate powers backing up their defenses.
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Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin
Also, should we really be judging defenders power as acceptable based on a pet you have to grind for post 50? What about the first 50 levels and the time it takes to grind out that pet? You know, the bulk of the game?
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Maybe defenders have bit lower damage, but they are usually much better in surviving.
It takes me same time to complete same mission on blaster and defender, even if blaster have much better damage, just because I don't have to run from hospital every few minutes (or wait for enemies to move to use wakie).
If you aren't going for speed record, or want to farm, defenders are just as good as other AT's, even better.
And if they rise damage of defenders then all defender teams would be even more overpowered then they already are. 
"If you want to win you must not lose."
"Easiest way to turn defeat into a victory is to put on the enemy's uniform"
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Some extra damage would be wonderful. However, I don't thank that is the core of the problem. Defender attacks need to use lower endurance to match their lower damage. The biggest problem I have have with defender is always in the middle levels especially on the toggle heavy builds. Someone else mentioned the DPE being bad and they were on the button. Defender are also getting hit worse on some bulilds than others with the amont of endurance it takes to keep all those debuffs, buffs and defenses running.
The complete vulnerability to CC that turns off many of our powers is a bit of a pain too for all but a few builds.
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I like this mindset better(primary>secondary). For defenders, im not exactly worried about damage, but there are a couple things that would make sense to change on a defender to me:|
Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin
Buff or Debuff powers work better for defenders, but any power that is not a buff of debuff is fair game. Consider storm for example. Thunderous clap, Tornado's damage, Lightning storms damage, Gale, the slow from snowstorm, and the knockdown and slows from freezing rain all work equally if not better for controllers IIRC.
IMO the whole "controllers are the king of controls "defenders are the king of buff/debuff" etc is stupid. They should have just stuck with Primary >secondary for any set and made power pools equal across all at's. Also, should we really be judging defenders power as acceptable based on a pet you have to grind for post 50? What about the first 50 levels and the time it takes to grind out that pet? You know, the bulk of the game? |
-provide some sort of mez protection in the inherent. Maybe instead of a scaling edurance reduction, it could be a scaling Mez protection as your teamates fall, so you could save them, or keep both.
-Reduced endurance costs for ALL defender powersets. That way we can keep toggles running better and debuff better with our secondary set. and with a couple slots being freed up from 1-50 from this, you can slot for more damage.
-Defenders given controller mods for controls. A lot of people who play controllers agree with this too, and theyve said so on other threads. Since we dont have that many controls, it wouldnt be overpowered, i wouldnt think.
More damage would be nice, but not nessasary IMO. it bothers me more when i get mezed as the only support toon on a team and cant debuff and having to watch the rest of the team fall soon after -_-
EDIT: ALSO, maybe raise the defender damage cap to 500% or maybe 600%? if we can get buffed that high... why not xD
If I can solo the Clockwork Paladin in ~35 minutes with no temp powers (yes, that means no Envenomed Daggers, no Backup Radio, etc, etc), no inspirations, no Lore or Judgement, and only T3 Spiritual Alpha/Diamagnetic Interface and an Arachnobot to help me on a Kin/Dark (Dark being generally accepted as one of the lowest damage Defender secondaries there is), Defenders don't need more damage. And, on top of that, I *could* have done it without the Arachnobot, it just would have taken me probably closer to 3.5 hours, instead of 35 minutes. lol
And, there were no purple IO's, Hami-O's, or PvP IO's involved, either. Just for the record.
And on top of that, I can still make 7 other people EPIC WINZ with SB and Fulcrum Shift.
I think Defenders are just fine the way they are. Or maybe that's just the Kinetics speaking. >.>
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If you give Defenders mezz protection, you'll have to substantially buff Force Fields and Sonic Resonance, as mezz protection is a huge part of the desirability of these sets and you just gave it away.
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Originally Posted by theduke24
-provide some sort of mez protection in the inherent. Maybe instead of a scaling edurance reduction, it could be a scaling Mez protection as your teamates fall, so you could save them, or keep both.
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If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
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That would be the kinetics speaking....
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Originally Posted by Scirion
If I can solo the Clockwork Paladin in ~35 minutes with no temp powers (yes, that means no Envenomed Daggers, no Backup Radio, etc, etc), no inspirations, no Lore or Judgement, and only T3 Spiritual Alpha/Diamagnetic Interface and an Arachnobot to help me on a Kin/Dark (Dark being generally accepted as one of the lowest damage Defender secondaries there is), Defenders don't need more damage. And, on top of that, I *could* have done it without the Arachnobot, it just would have taken me probably closer to 3.5 hours, instead of 35 minutes. lol
And, there were no purple IO's, Hami-O's, or PvP IO's involved, either. Just for the record. And on top of that, I can still make 7 other people EPIC WINZ with SB and Fulcrum Shift. I think Defenders are just fine the way they are. Or maybe that's just the Kinetics speaking. >.> |
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
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-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Fixed that for you. |
Originally Posted by Arondell
Given that at least some defender builds have the capability to take down GMs I don't feel defenders are broken as an AT.
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My Rad/Sonic can solo several of the GMs in the game. If Defender damage was as bad as some people keep saying, that wouldn't be possible, even with -regen debuffs.
Even when you hit a GM with Lingering Radiation, you still have to be able to put out a respectable amount of damage in a short period of time to hurt them enough to win the fight.
Since GM's resist regen debuffs by 85%, you're really only debuffing their regen by 75% instead of the 500% Lingering Rad says it does. If you don't deal good damage that isn't going to be enough to drop it.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Except that, thanks to the purple patch, you are NOT stopping their regen. You are debuffing it, but even a 500% regen debuff is resisted by 85%, meaning you're only actually debuffing their regen by 75%. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The ability for Defenders to solo AVs is not based on their damage, it's based on their ability to stop the AVs regeneration. If you can do that actual DPS is irrelevant, you just need to be able to survive long enough.
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If you can't deal decent damage, that isn't enough of a debuff to win the fight for you.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Except that even with the regen resistance their regen is still reduced to about 23.5 HPS so all it really proves is that Defenders can hit 23.5 DPS which is not really that much, even for Defender.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Except that, thanks to the purple patch, you are NOT stopping their regen. You are debuffing it, but even a 500% regen debuff is resisted by 85%, meaning you're only actually debuffing their regen by 75%.
If you can't deal decent damage, that isn't enough of a debuff to win the fight for you. |
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Well, technically it proves that they can hit strictly greater than 23.5 DPS, but we all know the true damage output is still a great deal more, because these AVs fall quickly.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Except that even with the regen resistance their regen is still reduced to about 23.5 HPS so all it really proves is that Defenders can hit 23.5 DPS which is not really that much, even for Defender.
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The simple fact of this conversation is that, right now, a team of defenders is arguably the most powerful thing in the game.
If you buff defender damage, you can take the "arguably" out of my last statement.
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I love defenders, but when talking about AVs, all corruptor teams are by far superior. Scourge is ridiculous against AVs and GMs.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Well, technically it proves that they can hit strictly greater than 23.5 DPS, but we all know the true damage output is still a great deal more, because these AVs fall quickly.
The simple fact of this conversation is that, right now, a team of defenders is arguably the most powerful thing in the game. If you buff defender damage, you can take the "arguably" out of my last statement. |
That being said, any increase in defender damage would need to be accompanied by an increase in corruptor damage.
I still believe in the post in my sig. I still think it is crazy, but I believe in it anyway. Buff defenders!
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Thunderous Clap|
Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin
Buff or Debuff powers work better for defenders, but any power that is not a buff of debuff is fair game. Consider storm for example. Thunderous clap, Tornado's damage, Lightning storms damage, Gale, the slow from snowstorm, and the knockdown and slows from freezing rain all work equally if not better for controllers IIRC.
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Controller: 18.625s Stun
Defender: 14.9s Stun
Tornado
Same
Lightning Storm
Controller: 40.04 Energy damage
Defender: 44.49 Energy damage
Gale
Controller: 3.06 damage. Also gets containment damage.
Defender: 3.62 damage
Snow Storm
Same. Slows were made the same ages ago after raising the issue of slows being a debuff(-speed) as well as a control.
Freezing Rain
Too many to list, but defenders win in a landslide. Just about every debuff, and there is a number of them, favor defenders. At worst, they are the same.
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Now try it on a minion. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Scourge is ridiculous against AVs and GMs.
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I'll still take Scourge over the damage buff which defenders get that only help them when solo and on small teams.
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Actually... No, it wouldn't. That would be the T3 Diamagnetic Interface (100% chance for -Regen) speaking. Pre-Interface, on the exact same build (and several others... I've been working at this for quite some time now), Dark Blast (on a Defender) cannot output enough damage to counter the remaining regen after Transfusion alone. Trust me, I've tried every GM I know of, including the Devouring Earth Monsters on Monster Island. Partly due to the fact that it is nigh-impossible to keep yourself at 300% damage when all nearby mobs are almost guaranteed (short of Monster Island) to be at least 20 levels below you. Don't get me wrong, Kinetics plays a large part in it, but Kinetics in itself is NOT responsible.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
That would be the kinetics speaking....
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Purple sets (and possibly PvP sets, I'm not terribly familiar with either) MAY provide enough extra enhancement (and better set bonuses in general) to allow Dark Blast to do it without Diamagnetic, but I honestly doubt it.
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The Diamagnetic is not making a huge difference, but it may be enough to push you over the top (although at 35 minutes, I suspect you could actually make the kill without Diamagnetic and would be better off with Reactive).|
Originally Posted by Scirion
Actually... No, it wouldn't. That would be the T3 Diamagnetic Interface (100% chance for -Regen) speaking. Pre-Interface, on the exact same build (and several others... I've been working at this for quite some time now), Dark Blast (on a Defender) cannot output enough damage to counter the remaining regen after Transfusion alone.
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Against a GM, Diamagnetic should be reducing the regen by about 18 HP/second. Reactive will blow that away just from the DoT and then add even more thanks to the -resistance.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Thus, my point still stands. Diamagnetic is the key, NOT Kinetics. The accomplishment may well be possible with Reactive (and I suspect it may also be faster as well, even ignoring the damage, and only the -Resistance), however, as I stated, it is NOT possible with Kinetics and Dark Blast (and take your pick of APP/EPP) alone.
Also note that 35 minutes was with the perma-Arachnobot. Without the Arachnobot, it would have been *much* slower. Rough guess, I would say somewhere between an hour, hour and a half-ish.
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Once you pull the lore pets out, Kinetics is the key. Unless you refuse to use lore pets, in which case you have no right to ask for more damage.|
Originally Posted by Scirion
Thus, my point still stands. Diamagnetic is the key, NOT Kinetics. The accomplishment may well be possible with Reactive (and I suspect it may also be faster as well, even ignoring the damage, and only the -Resistance), however, as I stated, it is NOT possible with Kinetics and Dark Blast (and take your pick of APP/EPP) alone.
Also note that 35 minutes was with the perma-Arachnobot. Without the Arachnobot, it would have been *much* slower. Rough guess, I would say somewhere between an hour, hour and a half-ish. |
Then there's Reactive as well, which works best if you have -res debuffs. And guess which AT has the best -res debuffs in the game?
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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You mean AE? ;p
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Originally Posted by CommunistPenguin
What about the first 50 levels and the time it takes to grind out that pet? You know, the bulk of the game?
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A level 50 AV regenerates 95 hp per second.|
Originally Posted by Scirion
it is NOT possible with Kinetics and Dark Blast (and take your pick of APP/EPP) alone.
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Defender dark blast can put out more damage than that without interface before even factoring in their primary if they take electric fence.
source: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...14&postcount=4
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He was talking about GMs. I am not sure what Paladin's regen rate is, but I suspect it is a lot lower than the number I used to generate my Diamagnetic value (I think I used the stats for a lvl 50 GM and Paladin is a lowbie lvl GM). But even Paladin has higher regen than an AV.|
Originally Posted by Garent
A level 50 AV regenerates 95 hp per second.
Defender dark blast can put out more damage than that without interface before even factoring in their primary if they take electric fence. |
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Once you pull the lore pets out, Kinetics is the key. Unless you refuse to use lore pets, in which case you have no right to ask for more damage.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I wasn't talking about these levels, unless you want to solo GM's and AV's at 1-37.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I want more defender damage for levels 1 to 37. Lore pets are not gonna help me much.
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Defenders are a support AT first, damage AT second. Their damage role will mature later than their support role, and that's just how the AT works. Defenders can do a lot of what the damage AT's can do, it just takes them longer to get there.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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I'm not sure if you'd HAVE to because sonic and FF would get this mezz protection all the time AND it would stack with the scaling mezz protection AND gives it to the team, but I see what your saying. Still, i dont think its the defender damage that needs a buff, just end costs, some mezz protection and equal level controlsas controllers get, and POSSIBLY an increase in damage cap, even though thatd only really help kinetics solo.|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
If you give Defenders mezz protection, you'll have to substantially buff Force Fields and Sonic Resonance, as mezz protection is a huge part of the desirability of these sets and you just gave it away.
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but my biggest thing is MEZZ AND END
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
What I would love to see in CoH 2 is a system where all characters have nice damage and survival tools for soloing but also provide force multiplication tools for groups.