Knockback vs Damage sets should control outcome

So here is my is my issue. Early on in my CoH n00bness my 2nd creation was a powerset that really looked cool. I made an Energy/Energy Blaster not really understanding the issues I was about to encounter as the knockback that is inherent to that powerset is really most annoying. although I am very adept at manipulating it now I can play this toon without be a burden to Mob supported buffs of toons such as "Invuln Tanks" or Willpower or even toons running AAO in the shield set.

I am just wondering, especially after seeing VOID in the incarnate power set Judgment (where you have the OPTION of choosing damage over knock back) Why can you not adjust sets with heavy knock back so that the knock back is NOT present if a Knock back Set or IO is not slotted in it?

Say I slot all of my powers with Thunderstrikes for example then no knock back effects will be present and I would get benefit of max damage. Or Visa Versa if I slot Force Feedback (even one) that the knock back would be allowed.

If that is not possible at this point then maybe the creation of such a set that would dampen the knock back or secondary effects of powers like this one.

Problem is on some servers knock back is Taboo thus in some instances causing AT alienation. Anyway just curious if something could be looked at in this regard ... Thanks guys.

The problem is that some people like having the knockback, and they'd then have to sacrifice damage to get back to their current level of effectiveness. And that's not even getting into whether or not this is even technically feasible, considering that enhancements can't create anything (outside of procs), just modify the values on the powers. So there's no telling if you could even have the power be "no knockback unless knockback enhancements are slotted."

In addition to that, the powers are balanced around having the secondary effect that they do. Energy Blast isn't exactly the most damaging set, and if it has, at base, no secondary effect, it would be a poor performer. Then, on top of that, you'd have to sacrifice combat performance for KB values, which would hurt a lot of characters. Right now, there's KB in those powers, regardless of slotting, so you could six-slot a Thunderstrike set to get the Defense bonuses. But, if you needed to slot a KB enhancement in there to get the KB to work, you couldn't get the 6-slot bonus from Thunderstrike.


In addition to this, KB can be used effectively. Random KB is frowned upon, sure, because it can create chaos. However, if you learn how to use it, it can be a great boon for a team. Knocking things into walls, and keeping them on their butts can be a lot of damage mitigation. If you knock a single enemy back, just keep shooting him until he dies. Also, you can knock enemies back INTO the range of the Tanker's aggro aura or debuff auras, which can help team performance.


In short, this isn't going to happen. Not only does it come dangerously close to breaking the cottage rule, this would be horrible for a lot of characters.

Ok but the question is more related to the Devs as can they look into this first off. I understand very well how the power works what I am asking is Can you have more damage in liu of the knock back or have knock back for those that wish it.

Not everyone shares your view on the balance of the power nor the "Joy of Knock Back" some despise some love it.

And as we have seen in the incarnate VOID power the devs are aware of this as they gave people a CHOICE (<---- which is what I am asking them to look into) as whether or not to choose knock back or damage.

And I would be willing to wager you that given the choice a higher % of the players would choose damage OVER knock back especially in that particular power set.

I get that some people despise knockback. They can choose to use sets that don't contain it if they want to. Some people DO like knockback, but shouldn't be penalized for it. They should be able to choose sets with Knockback already in it, and balanced for.

And it you wanted to post this for the Devs only, you should have sent them a PM, not posted in the forums, because here is for the players to discuss ideas. The Devs rarely post on subjects like this.

If they created a set where you could tradeoff damage and knockback, any time that changes were made to it, you'd have to balance two sets, basically, since you'd have two balance points to consider: those who have slotted KB and those who haven't. You'd also still have the fact that you're punishing people who do like KB with not being able to slot with the same freedoms.

The Void power does give you a choice between this, just like the other Judgement powers give you a choice between secondary effects and more damage. Does that mean that people hate the secondary effects? No, it just means that you have to make a tradeoff on those EXTREMELY powerful powers on whether you want a secondary effect or more damage. It doesn't prove that powersets like Energy Blast should be given the same tradeoff. Mostly because Void doesn't need slotting to be effective, and also because you're building the power to do what you want it to do, it's not forced on you by powerset choice.

Also, in your OP, you don't mention how exactly the powerset would get more damage if you chose not to slot KB. So I'm wondering how it would be done. If it's just through slotting, that's a bad way to do it, since like I mention above, it denies choice. Even if that was the only enforcement of this, then a Blaster that slots sets to get max damage, acc, endred, and rechred in 5 slots would have the 6ths lot free to slot a KB enhancement in, meaning that if you DON'T do that, you're losing effectiveness on the power.


I just don't see the need to do this. There are plenty of powersets out there for people who don't like KB. Why punish people who do like KB with slotting restrictions, instead of just not use those powersets if you don't like it?

Eh, there's lots of powers that can be mis-used; knockback powers are only somewhat more visible. And to be honest, people who knock knockback are usually overlooking some of its benefits (mitigation, for example).

Pets get parked in doorways (where they at least block vision, if not movement) or drag unwanted aggro with them. Immobilizes can lock the foes in a spread-out position, hurting AoE and those "foe-buffed" powersets you're talking about. Ranged players of every stripe block doorways -- I try to remind myself to be gentle about asking them to move, but it's quite exasperating.

Knockback is usually only bad if it's

1) area
2) misused

Single-target knockback is hardly ever worth complaining about. I guess if someone uses a non-damaging single-target knockback power like Force Bolt and then wanders off, ignoring the knocked-back foe, it could be a problem; but otherwise the player who committed the knockback should just finish the foe off with ranged attacks and the Tanker or AoE character can safely ignore the whole event.

Instead of changing KB for more damage, make it KB, or KD. Problem solved.

Or give people a -KB IO, which would massively reduce the KB on a power. Shifts the burden to people who DON'T like the effect to use up a slot. OP, how would you like that?

I'd like to see exclusive powers in Energy Blast, like how Night Widows can take Aim or Follow Up, but not both. So when you pick a power from Energy Blast you can choose the KB version or the KD version, but you can't take both. I would finally be able to run an Energy Blast toon.

I'd do one build for teaming with KD powers, and a KB build for solo.

My main problem with knock back is pbaoe knock back like Solar Flare in Human Peacebringer. It scatters way too much.


I wish there were more Knock up than knock back.


In Champions, knockback and down can actually improve your damage because there is strong "fall" damage. That makes knock back/up way cooler as the target who gets knock backed to a wall so hard should be "hurt" more. :P I know it won't happen in this game but some knockbacks are just too annoying to deal with. Trying to reposition all the time can be very annoying.

From my perspective you pick Energy Blast because it does knockback. I don't want to have to add KB slots just to get that functionality back. If you don't like that it does KB, pick another set. There are several. All sets have slightly different effects. I like that. I would not be opposed to a way to add an ehancement to change the Knock back to knock up or knock down. A -KB IO perhaps. But I am happy with my +KB enhanced energy blasts as they are.