Oni - The Confused Boss Pet

So last night I took out my old lvl 47 Ninja/FF to test a few things. I was specifically interested in whether or not Oni's AI has been changed and if he still takes Knockback set which he has none.

Well, Oni is STILL taking knockback set. He should be taking Immb/Hold set.

I tested Oni by using him alone and with other pets. I am not sure how many of you remember the "old" Oni AI, but he used to always start the battle with Breath of Fire and Rain of Fire if it's recharged. His AI was very predictable which I like because I could always count on Smoke Flash, critical Breath of Fire. I used to count 16s and put smoke flash on him to get critical Breath.

Here is my conclusion after testing Oni:

Oni is confused because he is too many attacks. The core of the problem is his two Fire Swords. Yes, I know some of you like those two attacks because they are more damaging. However, Fire Swords are really messing up Oni's attack chain and his purpose on the team.

As fragile as Ninjas are, Oni is best served as immb/hold and range attacks. You really don't want him to run forward to cycle fire sword attacks because when he draws out his swords, he usually doesn't use Ring of Fire and Char until the target has moved out of melee range. I've tested his AI many times and it is frustrating to see how Oni

Another reason why you don't want melee attacks on Oni is that Breath of Fire is a CONE attack. It is way less efficient when he runs close and the cone doesn't cover as many targets.

I like to compare Oni with Demon Prince. Demon Prince's AI is way better because he, too, has one range attack, one range hold, two ice swords and most importantly, his aoe is a PbAoE so when he runs forward, it covers more targets and he has Chilling Embrace around him as well. In a way, you benefit more when Prince runs in.


What do you get when Oni runs in? A cone that doesn't cover much, two fire swords that stop Oni from cycling other attacks and what's worse is if any of Genins knockbacks with Crane Kick, you'll see Oni stands there for a bit and then decides what to use. It really costs a lot of delays.


Oni has the great "potential" to be one of the best bosses with range attacks but the game is "limiting" his potential. Once you put two upgrades on Oni, you'll realize that he doesn't cycle Fire Blast as much, which seems strange to me because it only recharges in 4s? Ring of Fire recharges in 4s and Char recharges in 8s. Just these attacks alone, Oni should comfortably cycle range attacks at a distance while letting Jounins do the melee work.


If the game forces Oni to cycle Fire Blast, Ring of Fire and Char whenever it's up, you will not feel the loss dps from two fire swords and your Ninjas will benefit more from Oni's controls.


I don't know what the game is doing but you can tell it's restricting Oni from using all of his attacks when they are recharged. There is no way he has "many pauses" when he goes melee because he has: Fire Blast, Ring of Fire, Char, Fire sword, fire sword hack, and breath of fire. Too many attacks? I think so. It's confusing the pet's AI!!! It takes away Oni's focus.


By the way, I also tested Jounins and they finally made them better. They used to sit at range using just poison darts or using caltrops and "pause" before drawing the swords. As funny as it sounds, Ninja set is full of "conflicts". If you only use Oni and two Jounins, Jounins will always go in to melee but if you summon Genins and direct them to attack all together, Jounins do not always go in to melee right away. Because of this, I've changed my command to Attack Aggressive for Oni and Jounins and the three Genins are only in Bodyguard mode. This way Jounins run in almost immediate after the first poison darts and Genins can pick their targets and die for all I care. lol

Another conflict is Genin's crane kicks. Whenever a target is knocked back, you'll suffer from a "delay" especially with Jounins. The only way to soften this conflict is if Oni always uses Ring of Fire when it's up which he doesn't if he runs in with fire swords.


What do you think?

PS: By the way, I didn't know Oni has both Lethal and Smashing resistance. I thought he only has Fire resistance. Interesting.

I've tested Demon Prince this morning for a bit. His AI is a lot better than Oni's.

First of all, Prince can take Hold and Slow sets! Oni can only take Pet set. I don't know why the dev just can't give Oni Hold and Immb sets. I've reported this so many times.

Chance for Smashing from slow set is going to be so good in Prince because every one of his attack can trigger the proc. What does Oni have? Nothing.


I was paying attention to Prince's behavior and he is quite melee oriented. His attacks are:
Ice Blast: recharge in 8s
Ice Sword: recharge in 8s
Ice Slash: recharge in 10s
Block of Ice: recharge in 8s
Frozen Aura: recharge in 20s
Shiver: recharge in 30s

You can tell the dev learned from their mistakes. They made Ice Blast hit harder but with longer recharge so the pet is "forced" to go melee more often because he has nothing else to do. The 8s apart is perfect with 4 attacks.
If you give a pet too many low recharge range/melee attacks, the pet's AI is messed up because it doesn't know when to use what. If you watch Prince, he uses every attack when it's up. I love it when he uses Block of Ice so often.


If you watch Oni, he doesn't cycle Fire Blast nearly as much after you gave him two upgrades but why is that? Fire Blast only recharge in 4s! Oni usually starts the fight with Ring of Fire and Char and then he would pause a bit. That pause causes him either to run in closer to use Rain of Fire (aoe) and then eventually draw out fire sword, or stand there to wait for Ring of Fire to recharge. And Oni doesn't use Breath of Fire right away. It's like he is saving it for something else. Breath of Fire is a cone attack and if you don't use it while you are at a good distance, then don't bother using it at close range.

I really don't know what kind of AI Oni is using and what they did to him, but he is the only pet in the game that has many "pauses" even though he has many attacks. It's almost like the game restricts him from using too many attacks within a certain time.

Oni has:
Fire Blast: 4s
Ring of Fire: 4s
Char: 8s
Fire Sword: 3s
Fire Sword Hack: 6s
Breath of Fire: 16s


If you watch your Oni carefully, he doesn't cycle attacks fast enough and I don't know why. He should be like Genins cycling every attack when its up. This can dramatically increase Oni's damage output. It is sad that Prince has way superior debuffs (the amount of slow debuffs from Prince is insane!!!), higher damage (by using all attacks available), and way smoother attack sequence and AI. Prince's only down side is his size. Those Demons are too huge and sometimes they block each other.


Are there any experienced Ninja user out there? Have you paid attention to your Oni's behavior?

I know Ninja isn't exactly a popular set that deserves time and attention, but maybe the set is unpopular because it has some problems that are still not fixed? Ninjas have huge survival issue.

+1

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

I know most of you don't care about Ninjas but tonight, I did a test on Oni VS Prince when they fight dummy in RWZ. I figure numbers don't mean much until I see them in a real fight for 2 minutes.

Oni
Test 1: I goto Oni right beside the dummy hoping that he can draw his swords so he has more attacks to cycle.

Test 1: For two minutes, Oni use:
Ring of Fire: 16 times
Char: 10 times
Fire Blast: 3 times (Why?!!!!)
Fire Sword Slash: 1 time (Why?!!!)
Fire Sword Hack: None
Breath of Fire: 6 times

36 powers were used in the first test. I am not counting Rain of Fire as the recharge is 60s and it does seem like Oni uses it as soon as it's recharged. The two things that really stand out is the lack of use of Fire Blast and Fire Swords. Edited: I made a mistake earlier thinking that there are 240s in two minutes. Breath of Fire was used 5-6 times which is about right when you factor in activation time. The real lack of use is Fire Blast and Fire Swords.
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Test 2: I let Oni start the fight at a distance to start the fight:
Ring of Fire: 16 times
Char: 11 times
Fire Blast: 1 time (WHAT???)
Fire Sword Slash: 2 times
Fire Sword Hack: 2 times
Breath of Fire: 5 times

36 powers were also used in the 2nd test. Amazing. It's almost like the game sets a limit on how many times they are "allowed" to attack in a period of time. Char was used one more time because Oni started at a distance and he usually throws RoF and Char first before going in. Not surprised. What's surprising, again, is the lack of Fire Blast and Fire Swords.
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Test 3: I let Oni start at distance and I want to force him to use Fire Blast!!! I only gave him second upgrade because between Ring of Fire or Char, I rather him use more Char.

In two minutes:
Char: 3 times (Hello???!!)
Fire Blast: 13 times (Well, I got what I want but...)
Fire Sword Slash: 7 times

Note: This is such a terrible way to manuplate Oni's behavior. In other pets like Lich probably works but with just 2nd upgrade, Oni only uses 23 attacks and Char was only used 3 times. Why??? Char only has 8s recharge. Between Char 8s, Fire Blast 4s and Fire Sword Slash 3s, Oni should at least score over 30 hits.

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Conclusion: I did at least 5 tests but each test indicates that the game is restricting on what Oni can use and it's really messing up his AI. Basically if you give him two upgrades (which you should), he puts way more emphasis on using Ring of Fire over Fire Blast. Fire Blast is like ignored. Fire Swords should be a good source of dps for him but again, he doesn't use it much. For two full minutes, you can tell Oni would draw swords out and slash a few times and not really using other attacks and then he would switch "range" mode which includes Ring of Fire and Char. So basically, the game forces Oni to have different modes so in reality, he never utilizes his potential.


Edited: I made a mistake thinking there are 240s in two minutes. Breath of Fire were used 5-6 times which is about right. My problem with it is that Oni no longer uses it to open the battle. He used to do it as soon as it's available.

Here is Demon Prince's test. I want to explain a few things. First of all, I can't tell the graphic difference between Ice Sword and Ice Slash. I just count them as ice swords. Either way, it's decent damage. Ice Blast recharge in 8s, Block of Ice recharge in 8s, Ice Sword in 8s and Ice Slash in 10s. Oh and Prince uses way more endurance than Oni but a few -end should cure that.

Test 1: Start the fight at melee distance hoping to max. all of his attacks

Ice Blast: 10 times
Block of Ice: 10 times
Ice Swords: 13 times
Froze Aura: 5 times

Note: Prince used 38 powers in two minutes! This is a much more balanced performance. You can tell the game still favors range attacks on a pet with melee+range but this is fine because both Ice blast and Block of Ice are what I consider "good" attacks.

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Test 2: Prince starts the fight at a distance.

Ice Blast: 10 times
Block of Ice: 9 times
Ice Swords: 12
Frozen Aura: 5 times

Note: Prince used 36 powers this time (matches Oni's usage) and I think the reason is that Prince's AI told him to go forward but he is awfully big. There were times he ran forward and then got stuck in between dummies. It's like he doesn't know where to stand. I would consider 36-38 uses an average. Another thing I want to say is that Prince uses Shiver whenever it's up it seems.

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Thoughts: Even though Prince only has 4 attacks that he cycles regularly, his overall performance is more balanced and he has no different "modes" where he gets stuck in using only melee or only range. I did notice that if you summon all 6 pets, Prince may just stay on the back and only use Ice Blast and block of ice but when he is alone, he uses all the attacks.

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Final Words: Whatever the dev did to Oni, you can tell his AI is very "weird" and in a way, messed up. Prince has a much better design because he uses all of his powers and he has synergies in his attacks. The amount of slow debuff he does on his own is already so good and his Chilling Embrace has radius of 10. In a way, you want Prince to go in.


Ring of Fire is pretty important for the whole Ninja group because it has -knockback. It is typical to see all the ninjas pause and then chase a target that gets knocked back by Crane Kick. You have 3 Genins doing that! I can see the reason to force Oni to use Ring of Fire more, but what I don't understand is the lack of Fire Blast. That attack has decent damage and it only has 4s recharge. Oni has 5 attacks available to him, so in two minutes, he should be using more than 40 powers.

Oni's biggest attraction is probably his Rain of Fire but it has its huge drawback, which is Target AoE. Rain of Fire is not location based so when the target is dead, it is GONE. So if Oni casts it on a dying foe, the rest of AoE potential is all wasted. Due to this reason, I believe the recharge needs to be reduced to 30s because a lot of time the aoe is just wasted. Another problem is the lack of Breath of Fire. I am never a fan of pet with cone attacks because it's hard for them to line up. I strongly suggest the dev change Breath of Fire to Fireball. Make it 24s recharge. I don't care. It is better than what Oni has now. He no longer uses Breath of Fire whenever it's up. Either that or the dev gives back Oni's old AI where he always opens the battle with Breath.

Earlier I mentioned that I rather have them get rid of Oni's fire swords so he would just cycle Ring of Fire, Fire Blast and Char. The reason is simple. With the current AI, Oni benefits LITTLE going melee. He doesn't cycle melee swords enough and his cone attack can't cover enough. What is the point for him to go melee? We already have 5 other pets going melee. One more is just too crowded IMO.


Well, it's late. I know it's a very boring topic but I just want to bring up the differences. I really think Oni needs some improvements and Prince's design is much better. They can start by giving Oni Hold/Immb set. Please! :P

+2

Oni needs Powers and AI work bad.

So do Jounin ... who need to "figure out" that Poison Dart from Hidden Status is a really stupid thing to alpha strike with.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

This is some excellent testing and analysis right here. Kudos and I hope it results in the Oni getting a look.


There are so many powers and sets which really need another look from the powers team, hopefully they'll start doing some of them.

Nice work.

The Arsonist is bad with his Breath of Fire too. He only uses it at point blank range; it's treated like a melee attack. I've sometimes wondered if somehow that attack is mis-labled as a melee attack in the pet code somewhere.

I've seen the arsonist run all the way across a battle to get to point blank on his target so he can Breath of Fire. That power should be set to only be used at the edge of its range, not at point blank.

So tonight I start to slot my lvl 47 Ninja/FF with some sets. I am really looking forward to the group aoe buffs because it can save me so much time and endurance and boredom.

Having said that, I took Power Boost from patron. Oh my... I didn't know power boost increase +defense-only powers until recently. My individual shield increases from 17.5% to about 24.5% defense. I just did a simple +2x0 longbow tip mission with Overdrive and it was a cake. lol


One thing I've been thinking is that if the dev can't increase Genin's defense, can they at least give the Ninja Defense Debuff Resistance? Genin only has pitiful 7%ish defense at lvl 50. One hit from any attack with -defense will cut it to zero (if you factor in the fact that Genins are -4 lvl or more).

Please give Defense Debuff Resistance to Genin and Jounin. Oni at least has resistances to back it up. If Ninja is meant to be all defense-based, I think 37.5% defense debuff resistance is fair? 37.5% resistance for a 7% defense isn't much but it should be decent with external defense buffs on them? I am not sure how debuff resistance works with other buffs on you. If resistance doesn't help other defense buffs on the pet, then the resistance value needs to be a lot higher.

DDR is independent from defense buffs. It will reduce debuffs by a fixed amount regardless of how much defense you have.

i think a large problem with the pets right now is their AI issues

certain pets should not ever be in melee range, when i used to play my ninja/dark 3 years ago he was pretty sweet cause the oni rarely if ever went into melee, i actually didnt know he had a fire sword for almost 3 years lol

the arsonist is another example of bad pet AI that needs to be fixed, he should not ever be in melee range for any reason

this little AI problem also goes for pets other than mm though, many controller/dom pets and patron pets suffer from this problem

You'd think as long with cog side being out so long the revs would've corrected the Oni. It frustrates the hell out of me that he runs in more for certain enemies as opposed to others. It seems during the winter event he stayed back more while I was up at the front unleashing twilight grasp. Its been a while since I've played him, perhaps I need dust my ninja/ dark off and see if secondary powersets make a difference with different enemies. I wouldn't think so but this is cox and anything simple in thought is complicated in action.

The arsonist makes me wish we could use vengeance on our pets.

Well, the only reason I can think of why they made Oni "inferior" to Prince Demon is because of Smoke Flash which gives the pet 100% critical chance (minus Rain, Caltrop powers).

I like Smoke Flash but that power isn't cheap to use. Its base cost is 30 endurance which is very high and I have to click a power to do it. In the heat of battle, clicking the pet, while trying to direct them, can be confusing.

It is not like having Smoke Flash is a win-win situation. For one, Ninja doesn't have a pet-like power to slot two more Pet Unique. For two, the two archery attacks suck. Archery can't take any secondary sets so it's not like you can slot proc damage to get more damage out of it. Mastermind's base damage is so low that without proc damage, I don't think it's worth it. Other primaries have useful blasts like Dark Blast and Gloom and the whip attacks that can reduce resistance.