on A Scrapper... Urgg this is a VERY big can of worms.
Massive Res + increased Reg + soft capped s/l
vs
Massive reg + Soft capped energy type def + Hp boost
vs
Very strong S/L res + soft capped Def + big hp boost
Right off the bat... what kind of Budget are we talking here? Soft-caping s/l on Elec isn't cheap so Im asumeing higher end but it does matter greatly between how these set function.
Main: Praetor Imperium Elec/SS/Mu
Quote:
I have to wonder why you don't get WP softcapped to S/L as well.|
Originally Posted by Motley_Cruel
Which of these is the most survivable (in general gameplay)
Electric Armor with perma-Energize, S/L softcap Willpower with F/C/E/N softcap Invuln with perma-Dull Pain, S/L softcap and why? Thanks in advance  |
As for tougher...hmmm...tough call...
Against Cims, Id give it to Invun
Against Rularuu, I'd give it to WP
Against Rikti, I'd give it to ELA
Though mind you, WP and INV (though not as well as WP and ELA) will do just fine against Rikti, so that last part is kinda meh.
ELA is likely going to feel the weakest of the three BUT it's likely to feel like the funnest to play of the three.
WP has no clickies, so you're just hitting attacks, not counting the Tier 9 which I wouldnt skip personally.
INV has a clickie, but it's a long recharge clickie (Dull Pain), and again not counting the Tier 9, but Id likely skip it myself.
ELA has a few clickies that you will click often enough...a Energize and Power Sink! Plus you get a damage aura!
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How does Inv do these days against praetorians? They have rather a lot of psi damage, so I've been curious.
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Using numbers from builds I have made under those exact circumstances (note, numbers can change wildly per build):
Kat/Electric: Soft-capped Sm/Le, Perma-Energize, with Shadow Meld from Epics for other defenses
Assuming 70% Sm/Le, 30% other
Max Hp: 1727
Regneration Rate: 686%, 49.38 per second with Rebirth and Spiritual Core Alpha
Amount of damage after resistances to hurt: 111.01
Amount of damage after defenses to hurt (With SM): 2220.36
Amount of damage after defenses to hurt (Without SM): 978
(Actual numbers would be slightly higher due to things not calculated).
Kat/Willpower (staying with Katana for consistency)
Max HP: 2245.14
Regeneration Rate (with Rebirth) 1 Target: 942%, 92.68 hp/s
Regeneration Rate 10 Targets: 1408%, 138.52 hp/s
Amount to hurt after resistances (10 targets): 228.87
Amount to hurt after defenses (10): 4515.39 (on this build all defenses were soft-capped except psionic)
Kat/Inv
Max HP: 2409.52
Regeneration Rate (With Rebirth): 476%, 49.31 hp/s
Amount to hurt after resistances: 118.15
Amount to hurt after resistances: 2363 (on this build, all but psy were soft-capped at one target in Inv)
So your final numbers are:
Kat/Elec: 2220.36
Kat/Willpower: 4515.39
Kat/Inv: 2363
So, willpower wins by a large amount. This is due to its larger regeneration. Because all the sets have similar numbers on resistances (Elec slightly higher to exotics, will to psy, invulnerability to smashing/lethal), no set has a huge numerical resistance advantage, and also have good defense. This leaves regeneration as the main factor between the builds Note, however, that Elec and Inv can increase resistances with their t9s, giving them an advantage (improving them to 3950 hps and 3945 hps). Invulnerability and Electric will be similarly resistant, because the higher regen Electric gets is matched by the higher MaxHp from Dull Pain.
Basically, when you have average scrapper resistances and capped defenses, higher regeneration = more survivability.
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Quote:
Mock up some builds and toss them in Here and find out for yourself |
Originally Posted by Motley_Cruel
Which of these is the most survivable (in general gameplay)
Electric Armor with perma-Energize, S/L softcap Willpower with F/C/E/N softcap Invuln with perma-Dull Pain, S/L softcap and why? Thanks in advance |
I couldn't resist throwing around the new Survivability Score Matrix.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
I wish I had found that when I made my post before. That would have made it much easier.
TW/Elec Optimization
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Quote:
What color is the banana?
|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
How well would each of these powersets defend themselves against a man armed with a banana?
|
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Quote:
I considered plugging some numbers into it to give an answer. Then I realized I had really important things to do this evening, like read some comic books. I mean graphic novels.
|
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
Mock up some builds and toss them in Here and find out for yourself
I couldn't resist throwing around the new Survivability Score Matrix. |
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You left out Power Sink in your analysis. In the scenarios where they are surrounded by 10 or more foes, Willpower may be getting its best regen buff, but a well built Electric can completely neuter up to 16 foes (the target cap), including bosses. With good recharge levels, it would be available every spawn for such use. Active mitigation like this should be taken into account just like it would be for Dark Armor.
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Active mitigation is, unfortunately, a bit difficult to quantify.
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Quote:
Not to detract from your point, since I do agree with it. I did want to say though that Electric actually has better resists in all areas except S/L, which Invuln beats it. This includes psy. Now, the better resists are not always huge, but in the area of 5-10%. |
Originally Posted by Combat
So, willpower wins by a large amount. This is due to its larger regeneration. Because all the sets have similar numbers on resistances (Elec slightly higher to exotics, will to psy, invulnerability to smashing/lethal), no set has a huge numerical resistance advantage, and also have good defense. This leaves regeneration as the main factor between the builds
Basically, when you have average scrapper resistances and capped defenses, higher regeneration = more survivability. |
I have to say though, that I have been looking at all 3 of these sets as well, trying to figure out what I like and don't like. Basically I figure WP and Invuln are stronger defensively, which makes sense because they have no real offensive powers. While Electric has a damage aura, and lightning reflexes, and some other nice perks.
One other thing to keep in mind is how hard it is or is not to IO out the various builds. How many sacrifices do you have to make to get the defensive packages. Electric is harder in some ways since you have no defense to build off of.
Ultimately though, to the main question the OP asked, I would say the WP would be better then the other two builds, defensively. I do have to echo some of the other comments, whats the S/L Defense on the WP? Because that really is the one that is the most important to softcap. Or at least get somewhat high. Course a WP brute with the same build would be even tougher with the higher hps.
Quote:
Definitely, but dealing with an inaccurate assessment of its contribution is much better than leaving it out entirely.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Active mitigation is, unfortunately, a bit difficult to quantify.
|
That said, I also think you should look at Willpower at both max targets and at minimum, because its mitigation value changes a heck of a lot between mobs and AVs. The other two sets don't have that problem, especially if you are capping Invuln with one target in range.
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Quote:
Looking into this issue at the moment. Time is fleeting, though, but I do have the Survivability Matrix now and working with a friend in an attempt to infuse DPS values into quantifiable damage mitigation that coincide with the Matrix. So far, I am more cursing the spreadsheet and wanting some C++
|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Definitely, but dealing with an inaccurate assessment of its contribution is much better than leaving it out entirely.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
The Survivability Test spreadsheet looks super cool. But how do you use it? I tried to import a MIDS build and it didn't seem to populate. Is there a thread where you discuss use?
Thx!
Quote:
This. With perma hasten PS is up multiple times in a fight. I think we have discussed this before on here though. I can see where it is hard to consider it when doing the math.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
You left out Power Sink in your analysis. In the scenarios where they are surrounded by 10 or more foes, Willpower may be getting its best regen buff, but a well built Electric can completely neuter up to 16 foes (the target cap), including bosses. With good recharge levels, it would be available every spawn for such use. Active mitigation like this should be taken into account just like it would be for Dark Armor.
|
With that said, the lack of a click heal frustrates me to no end with WP. Which tends to make EA feel more survivable to me.
EA is also much more fun to play. There is just something funny about draining all of a groups end, and beating on them while they can't do anything.
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Quote:
Both of those T9s have a high chance of getting you killed, or at the least its rare high end build players will use them outside of very desperate situations.|
Originally Posted by Combat
Note, however, that Elec and Inv can increase resistances with their t9s, giving them an advantage (improving them to 3950 hps and 3945 hps).
|
On the other hand SoW - is a frequent use ability with a crash that is mitigated by both itself (by providing recovery while its up to nearly ensure you are near 100% when you crash) and by QR.
It doesn't add a huge amount of resistances, but it adds enough to take the edge off of many situations allowing your regen to catch up.
Even with just the steadfast unique it adds 21% SM/L res and 10% res to everything else - its a small amount but its a small amount being added on top of an already very very solid package.
Quote:
The only place it has been announced was in Werner's Kat/Regen High-End thread where we (er, mainly I), finally got a hold of it from him and tweaked it out into a user-friendly form. There...are... Pictorial Guides on how to use it. In truth, there are note boxes all over the spreadsheet (put your mouse over any of the purple boxes) and they'll pop up. Unfotunetly I designed it to be saved and loaded with everything open, but GoogleDocs doesn't have that capacity. That's where the screenshots come in |
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
The Survivability Test spreadsheet looks super cool. But how do you use it? I tried to import a MIDS build and it didn't seem to populate. Is there a thread where you discuss use?
Thx! |
The box for dropping a Mids-Chunk is just for reference for saving it, it wont auto-pop anything. Only thing you have to input are in the orange areas (Res, Typed and Positional Def in proper boxes, base Regen, and any additional clicks like heals or Tier9's); from there it'll calculate out your score at the top.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
Quote:
Now that, sir, is what is hard to quantify |
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
EA is also much more fun to play. There is just something funny about draining all of a groups end, and beating on them while they can't do anything.
|
I agree though, watching an ambush spawn of vickies and ACU's stair at me dumbfounded and powerless while I beat them is quite entertaining.Quote:
| Both of those T9s have a high chance of getting you killed, or at the least its rare high end build players will use them outside of very desperate situations. |
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Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Definitely, but dealing with an inaccurate assessment of its contribution is much better than leaving it out entirely.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by John_Printemps
Looking into this issue at the moment. Time is fleeting, though, but I do have the Survivability Matrix now and working with a friend in an attempt to infuse DPS values into quantifiable damage mitigation that coincide with the Matrix. So far, I am more cursing the spreadsheet and wanting some C++
|
So I guess it's up to whoever's doing this - do you want to measure less with a smaller margin of error, or measure more with a larger margin of error?
Me personally, I'm sticking with the first. I use the number as just one aspect of how I think about survivability, and I have a lot of "yeah but" in my mind as I use it. To me, it's very similar to calculating DPS. There are only a few situations in the game where the DPS figure will be an accurate measurement of your damage output. In most other situations, you're also using AoEs, you're moving from mob to mob and spawn to spawn, and so on. But all of that is much more difficult to quantify. I think it is better to go ahead and calculate DPS, and have a big "yeah but" in mind, than to try to quantify what your average damage output per second across an average mission might be. It may be worth calculating AoE as a separate figure, but I wouldn't try to combine the two, and I'd recognize the huge error bars on the AoE number.
I guess part of my reluctance to quantify the difficult to quantify stems from my original reason for doing these calculations - AV soloing. With an AV, all that active mitigation amounts to very little. You don't knock them back, hold them or fear them, they have massive resistance to debuffs, you used to not be able to kill them fast enough to make much difference, and so on. So for me, there was never much point in including anything other than your basic, passive mitigation. But we've always had groups that could challenge us, from the RWZ challenge to +4x8 to now things like finding yourself solo while trying to pick up some molecular acid. And these days, even Pylons go down fast enough that damage can be considered a form of mitigation.
Eh, I'm curious to see what y'all can come up with.
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Your survivability sheets are great and I understand why you limited it to the more straight forward. I am only worried that people will take the numbers from them and say "clearly Willpower is the best because it has this number," like seems to have been done upthread, because, unlike you whom the sheet was made for, average forum-browser guy does not realize that there are other things to keep in mind.
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Quote:
You know, you're right. I'm not sure exactly how we're going to go about it, but if this is going to be useful beyond a few people or a few specific purposes, it IS going to have to include some measure of active mitigation, damage reduction, mez auras, and so on. And as long as we're leaving the realm of the easily-quantified, y'all can be thinking about how and if you want to make adjustments for the relative contribution of hit points, resistance and defense beyond their "naive" application in the current spreadsheet. Now's our chance, I guess.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Your survivability sheets are great and I understand why you limited it to the more straight forward. I am only worried that people will take the numbers from them and say "clearly Willpower is the best because it has this number," like seems to have been done upthread, because, unlike you whom the sheet was made for, average forum-browser guy does not realize that there are other things to keep in mind.
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For that matter, we might want to take a look at how Arcanaville did everything. She has her own survivability spreadsheet, and as I recall, it looked comparatively user-friendly. I never really played with it, though.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
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Quote:
I agree with your position but recognize the inherent difficulty in "quantifying" active mitigation. Invariably, active mitigation is extremely user dependent. The player needs to be familiar with their active mitigation tools and know when to use them for maximum effectiveness. This will vary with the enemies you are facing.|
Originally Posted by Microcosm
Your survivability sheets are great and I understand why you limited it to the more straight forward. I am only worried that people will take the numbers from them and say "clearly Willpower is the best because it has this number," like seems to have been done upthread, because, unlike you whom the sheet was made for, average forum-browser guy does not realize that there are other things to keep in mind.
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I often struggle in politely explaining the difference, particularly when folks quote "forum experts" out of context. I don't see this changing any time soon.
You can take someone else's Will Power build and probably come pretty close to their performance.
A person can duplicate my Dark Armor build, but unless they are equally experienced with it, they'll never achieve my performance.
I can copy the Regeneration build of several I've seen excel with it and I will never come close to their performance.
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Quote:
Heh... you know... at some point you do have to step back and ask yourself... am I creating a computer simulation to model the output of what is, in some respects, another computer simulation?|
Originally Posted by John_Printemps
Looking into this issue at the moment. Time is fleeting, though, but I do have the Survivability Matrix now and working with a friend in an attempt to infuse DPS values into quantifiable damage mitigation that coincide with the Matrix. So far, I am more cursing the spreadsheet and wanting some C++
|
It's ok.. I've done the same thing.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
Which of these is the most survivable (in general gameplay)
Electric Armor with perma-Energize, S/L softcap
Willpower with F/C/E/N softcap
Invuln with perma-Dull Pain, S/L softcap
and why?
Thanks in advance