Shield Defense: Tanker v Brute
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2011-05-14 19:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I love my SS/SD brute.
Its a very fun character: rage+shield charge+footstomp= AWESOME.
I dont have any experience with tanks, but I think SD/SS is a really good combo for tankers. Thats what I heard.
Also you get shield charge early, and there was something about damage cap that makes tanks really shine with this combo.
Well, if it follows pseudo pet rules, as I expect it does, then the damage cap is 400% and tankers have higher base damage for it.
I really like Shields on tankers. Better Res/Def values, easy to soft-cap, and Shield Charge at 26 for 9 extra levels of smashing fun. Then again, getting KO Blow and Footstomp Early is nice too.
They ALL float down here. When you're down here with us, you'll float too!
@Starflier
I have a sd/ss tank and one thing you might not realize is that with double rage, saturated aao and 95% damage slotting you can and will easily hit the damage cap.
I read "for casual play" as being something you won't invest as much into influ/infamy wise. If that's the case, the tank will give you a better return. Even if a WP character can take Taunt, I prefer to tank with builds that have a stronger taunt aura. Many WP characters handle taunting issues just fine. It's just my own little preference. I was suppose to roll a SS/sd when we could side switch. I made a tank version to test out until then. The tank sat doormat until recently. I got it up to 17 last night and see no need to make a brute version since I'm having enough fun as is.
Tank is way easier to softcap and therefore less expensive to build. With Rage running does enough damage to get the job done.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
I agree with this.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
Tank is way easier to softcap and therefore less expensive to build. With Rage running does enough damage to get the job done.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Quote
I have a sd/ss tank and one thing you might not realize is that with double rage, saturated aao and 95% damage slotting you can and will easily hit the damage cap.
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While true, in this combo particularly, Shield Charge is still not the workhorse damage dealer of the build - Footstomp is.
Footstomp will do more damage over time for either AT, and is not constrained by a pseudo-pet damage cap.
On a high end build, Footstomp will be up every 5.5-6s. And Shield Charge will be around 25s (if you can somehow manage to get softcapped and 170% global recharge and take Spiritual Core, you can get it as low as 22.7s).
And even with Rage+AAO for the Tanker, the Brute still comes out ahead with Footstomp (as it should be, since the Tanker is considerably tougher).
SC is great, for a lot of reasons. But it is not the sole determining factor when choosing either Tanker or Brute IMO.
Addressing no one in particular:
If anyone has a high end SD/SS Tanker build with 150%+ Recharge can you please post what your typical damage is for Shield Charge? (I'm asking because I don't know, I only have the Brute version)
If you want to test, something like Council is pretty good.
Also, please include if you are T3 Alpha Slotted.
Against even level council (51 vs 51) my brute's SC hits for 284 damage at the epicenter with +400% damage bonus (Which means the SC pseudo-pet is damage capped).
I'm actually having problems even getting a SS/Shield brute soft-capped in mids. Anyone want to post an example build?
I'm thinking I'll probably go with an off-tank, scrakerish monstrosity. Because the tank is so easy to soft-cap it looks like it's a lot easier to focus on the more fun stuff (+recharge, regeneration, etc).
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker
I like SD with SS because Shield Charge gives it a little more AoE. Yes, I recognize that Footstomp is great, but I like that SC adds a bit more AoE to the table. Grant Cover and Phalnax Fighting also make it great on teams.
At then end it's an either or situation. The brute will do more damage the tank will take more. Both are worth a look at.
I'd advise making one of each and playing up to level 10 on them, see how it feels after.
Thought I would throw up my tank build just for the heck of it. This is him live..
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.94
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Majestic: Level 50 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(3), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(3), LkGmblr-Def(5), ResDam-I(5), ResDam-I(7)
Level 1: Jab -- P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(A), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(7), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(9), LkGmblr-Def(9)
Level 4: True Grit -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(11), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(11), Heal-I(13), Heal-I(13), Heal-I(15)
Level 6: Punch -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(15), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19)
Level 8: Haymaker -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(19), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23)
Level 10: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(25), Zephyr-ResKB(25), LkGmblr-Rchg+(40)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 18: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(27), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(27), RctvArm-ResDam(29)
Level 20: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+(29), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(37), LkGmblr-Def(39)
Level 22: Knockout Blow -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(31), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(31), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(31), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 24: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(33), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), HO:Nucle(36)
Level 28: Rage -- AdjTgt-ToHit(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(36), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(36), AdjTgt-Rchg(37), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 32: Phalanx Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 35: One with the Shield -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(40)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(40), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(42), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(42), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- P'Shift-End%(A), EndMod-I(45), EndMod-I(45), Heal-I(45), Heal-I(46), Heal-I(46)
Level 47: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt(A)
Level 49: Grant Cover -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 50: Cardiac Boost
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Heal-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Empty(A)
------------
Set Bonus Totals:
- 5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
- 5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
- 5% DamageBuff(Fire)
- 5% DamageBuff(Cold)
- 5% DamageBuff(Energy)
- 5% DamageBuff(Negative)
- 5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
- 5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
- 5.5% Defense(Melee)
- 5.188% Defense(Smashing)
- 5.188% Defense(Lethal)
- 4.875% Defense(Fire)
- 4.875% Defense(Cold)
- 4.875% Defense(Energy)
- 4.875% Defense(Negative)
- 3% Defense(Psionic)
- 4.875% Defense(Ranged)
- 6.75% Defense(AoE)
- 66% Enhancement(Accuracy)
- 62.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
- 105.42 HP (5.625%) HitPoints
- Knockback (Mag -4)
- Knockup (Mag -4)
- MezResist(Immobilize) 7.7%
- MezResist(Sleep) 1.65%
- MezResist(Stun) 3.85%
- 38% (2.973 HP/sec) Regeneration
- 0.945% Resistance(Fire)
- 0.945% Resistance(Cold)
- 1.26% Resistance(Energy)
- 1.26% Resistance(Negative)
- 2.5% Resistance(Psionic)
Code:
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The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Thought I would throw up my tank build just for the heck of it. This is him live..
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Would you mind posting your SC damage numbers from even level council at the epicenter when you get a chance?
Thanks.
Quote:
Base damage 100%|
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
I love my SS/SD brute.
Its a very fun character: rage+shield charge+footstomp= AWESOME. I dont have any experience with tanks, but I think SD/SS is a really good combo for tankers. Thats what I heard. Also you get shield charge early, and there was something about damage cap that makes tanks really shine with this combo. |
Slotting +around 100%
Double rage +160%
Fully saturated AAO +55%
Total damage 415% taken down to cap of 400% without any external buffs if you manage to get enough recharge to double stack rage.
Now granted, a brute can do the same thing and still has fury on top of it and will end up doing more damage, but this combo for a tank compared to other tank combos is what makes it shine.
Also it is far easier and cheeper to soft cap a Tanker Shield vs a Brute Shield so you can concentrate on building more recharge, meaning your heavy hitters like shield charge and footstomp are up faster compared to most SS/SD brutes. Granted the brute will still do more damage but the SS and SD combo for tanks is probably the closest in damage output when compared to their Brute counterparts.
Quote:
Actually made a build with soft cap def and exactly 170% global recharge. Just workin on finishing off the IOs and getting tier 4 ageless as currently the End suck is horrid witout cardio.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
On a high end build, Footstomp will be up every 5.5-6s. And Shield Charge will be around 25s (if you can somehow manage to get softcapped and 170% global recharge and take Spiritual Core, you can get it as low as 22.7s). |
Quote:
For casual PUG'ing, the Tanker is a clear better choice. You'll easily softcap and survive just about everything thrown at you - all on a much smaller budget. Your damage will be more consistent, but noticeably lower. That's not bad when you consider the extra HP, easy softcap, and additional resists.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Unholy
So I'm looking at rolling a SS/SD or a SD/SS character. Probably casual play, mostly PUGing, and I was wondering: does the loss of damage on the tank make up for the added survivability and ease to hit the soft-cap?
I actually kind of like tanking with my /WP brute and I wouldn't mind doing so with my Shield character, however, is that pretty much impossible on a brute without a super expensive IO build? |
While I know you mentioned off-tanking, that's more for the weak-aura'd WPs out there. Shield is one of the top two aggro magnets in the game (Ice being the other, Invuln following closely behind). The more you build for damage, the more aggro you'll grab. Stick to softcapping all three positions and you'll have a nice, easy enjoyable character. Whatever you get after that is just gravy.
Quote:
Yeah the END is a nightmare without/pre-cardiac.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Actually made a build with soft cap def and exactly 170% global recharge. Just workin on finishing off the IOs and getting tier 4 ageless as currently the End suck is horrid witout cardio.
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Ageless is an interesting way to go, especially outside of trials where you really don't need the extreme burst of survivability that Barrier provides.
At 170% global recharge and Softcapped is very nice, is it a Tanker build?
I have a build similar to AirHammer's except it switches the slotting b/w shield charge and foot stomp takes out the HO and subs in a Force Feedback proc. His maybe the way to go, but I just love that proc.
Miss Arc #147491: Rise of Bedlam
AKA Iron Smoke @Champion Server
Quote:
Mine does 321 damage excluding procs, level shifted 50 against 51's.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I agree with this.
While true, in this combo particularly, Shield Charge is still not the workhorse damage dealer of the build - Footstomp is. Footstomp will do more damage over time for either AT, and is not constrained by a pseudo-pet damage cap. On a high end build, Footstomp will be up every 5.5-6s. And Shield Charge will be around 25s (if you can somehow manage to get softcapped and 170% global recharge and take Spiritual Core, you can get it as low as 22.7s). And even with Rage+AAO for the Tanker, the Brute still comes out ahead with Footstomp (as it should be, since the Tanker is considerably tougher). SC is great, for a lot of reasons. But it is not the sole determining factor when choosing either Tanker or Brute IMO. Addressing no one in particular: If anyone has a high end SD/SS Tanker build with 150%+ Recharge can you please post what your typical damage is for Shield Charge? (I'm asking because I don't know, I only have the Brute version) If you want to test, something like Council is pretty good. Also, please include if you are T3 Alpha Slotted. Against even level council (51 vs 51) my brute's SC hits for 284 damage at the epicenter with +400% damage bonus (Which means the SC pseudo-pet is damage capped). |
L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
Currently Levelling: Angelic Blade - BS/WP Scrapper | Seeds of Destruction - Plant/Kin Controller
Quote:
Ill have to find some council..
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Would you mind posting your SC damage numbers from even level council at the epicenter when you get a chance?
. |
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
To reply to an earlier post, I'd consider the Force Feedback proc to be NECESSARY in footstomp. It can seriously be equal to several purple sets on average if you are surrounded by footstomp's target cap most of the time, and it is fairly cheap. It made my SS/SD feel supercharged and full of purples when in reality his build cost maybe 500-750 million (which sounds like an expensive build until you realize that one good purple would pay for it).
TW/Elec Optimization
Some follow up questions:
How required is Aid Self on a Shield tank? I'm having trouble melding concept and functionality on what I'm in the process building.
I know Fighting pool is a must. I want Flight for a travel power (which only requires on pick thanks to my vet badges), and I want Hasten. So either I sub out Combat Jumping for Hover or leave the Medicine Pool out of my Tank's build.
Any suggestions?
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker
I saw people having trouble softcapping an SS/SD brute. So I'm posting the build that mine is running with. I can tank STF with him just fine with use of inspirations against LR and if I'm taking all 4 AVs at once. Can't say I tried LRSF on him.
Even though he has Aid Self, I find myself rarely using it. I think it's mainly because he is my only toon with it and I'm just not used to having it. I just tend to eat a green when I need it.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.94
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Super Strength
Secondary Power Set: Shield Defense
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Medicine
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Punch
- (A) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage
- (3) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance
- (3) Touch of Death - Damage/Recharge
- (5) Touch of Death - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (5) Touch of Death - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (7) Touch of Death - Chance of Damage(Negative)
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (7) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (9) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (9) Aegis - Resistance
- (11) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
- (11) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge
- (A) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
- (13) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
- (13) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
- (15) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (15) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (17) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (17) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (19) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (A) Numina's Convalescence - Heal
- (19) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Endurance
- (21) Numina's Convalescence - Heal/Recharge
- (A) Mako's Bite - Chance of Damage(Lethal)
- (21) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
- (23) Mako's Bite - Damage/Endurance
- (23) Mako's Bite - Damage/Recharge
- (25) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
- (25) Mako's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) HamiO:Membrane Exposure
- (27) HamiO:Membrane Exposure
- (27) HamiO:Membrane Exposure
- (A) Recharge Reduction IO
- (29) Recharge Reduction IO
- (29) Recharge Reduction IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Endurance Reduction IO
- (A) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff
- (31) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge
- (31) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance
- (31) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Recharge/Endurance
- (33) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - To Hit Buff/Endurance
- (33) Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control - Chance for Build Up
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (A) Empty
- (A) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance
- (33) Aegis - Resistance/Recharge
- (34) Aegis - Endurance/Recharge
- (34) Aegis - Resistance/Endurance/Recharge
- (34) Aegis - Resistance
- (A) Luck of the Gambler - Recharge Speed
- (36) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
- (36) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
- (A) Empty
- (A) Obliteration - Damage
- (36) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (37) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (37) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (37) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (39) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
- (A) Obliteration - Chance for Smashing Damage
- (39) Obliteration - Damage
- (39) Obliteration - Accuracy/Recharge
- (40) Obliteration - Damage/Recharge
- (40) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (40) Obliteration - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Miracle - Heal/Endurance
- (42) Miracle - Endurance/Recharge
- (42) Miracle - Heal/Recharge
- (42) Miracle - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
- (43) Miracle - Heal
- (A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
- (43) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance
- (43) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
- (45) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
- (45) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
- (45) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
- (A) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Recharge/Endurance
- (46) Dark Watcher's Despair - Recharge/Endurance
- (46) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Endurance
- (46) Dark Watcher's Despair - Chance for Recharge Slow
- (A) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
- (A) Perfect Zinger - Taunt/Range
Level 1: Brawl
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift
- (A) Empty
- (A) Empty
- (A) Miracle - +Recovery
- (48) Numina's Convalescence - +Regeneration/+Recovery
- (A) Performance Shifter - EndMod
- (48) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Recharge
- (48) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
- (50) Performance Shifter - Accuracy/Recharge
- (50) Performance Shifter - EndMod/Accuracy
- (50) Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
Code:
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@Sparky Jenkins || Freedom Server | Union Server
Main Hero: Inferno Sparky - Fire/Fire Blaster
Main Villain: Kerry Astrid - Fire/Cold Corruptor
So I'm looking at rolling a SS/SD or a SD/SS character. Probably casual play, mostly PUGing, and I was wondering: does the loss of damage on the tank make up for the added survivability and ease to hit the soft-cap?
I actually kind of like tanking with my /WP brute and I wouldn't mind doing so with my Shield character, however, is that pretty much impossible on a brute without a super expensive IO build?
Virtue:
Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
Steel Heart - 24 Invuln/Super Strength Tanker