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Procs considered, Hurl has less DPA. |
Originally Posted by Obitus
Hurl is at least as bad, though it does give you a mildly useful situational -Fly debuff. I was surprised to find, just now, that Hurl actually has a marginally higher DPA than LBE (27ish versus 24, at base damage levels), but even so Hurl animates almost 1 second slower. Whatever on-paper DPA advantage Hurl has is, in other words, more than absorbed by the practical disadvantage (opportunity cost) of leveraging the power regularly.
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The -res gives all other attacks more damage, which can come out pretty significantly in overall damage contribution. So even though it won't give you the same DPS an attack like Gloom or Mu Lightning will, in a team situation or a lore pet situation that can change dramatically.
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While LBE isn't the greatest attack in the APPs it is solid, and takes the -res proc. Against AVs and GMs spamming it will get the proc off sooner or later and coupled with Bruising will give you and your team extra damage.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
If you're saying that LBE makes a decent mule assuming you're already taking Energy Mastery anyway, then sure -- but that seems like an unnecessary qualification. On the other hand, if all you want is a set mule, you can take any number of APP ranged attacks that are superior in their own right to LBE, and come packaged with AoE attacks that are (far far far) superior to Energy Torrent.
The DEF debuff sets aren't that spectacular in comparison with the normal ranged-damage sets. They're not even particularly good, depending on what your build's goals are (Apocalypse, Decimation, Devastation, and Thunderstrike offer bonuses that are at least as attractive to Tankers in the general case, probably much more attractive overall.) Which leads me back to the original statement: Energy Mastery is worth taking if you want the endurance management or are taking it for concept (usually Laser Beam Eyes). As far as supplementary attacks go, Energy Mastery's terrible, and that's probably (and appropriately) by design. |
Is it the best attack in the APP? No, hardly. Is it terrible? Hardly, less so if you know what to do with it.
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Never mind. I have better things to do than wrangle over something this insignificant.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
*SNIP*
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Perhaps I didn't turn on accolades or incarnates the first time around. I can understand the -res, infact I was quite impressed with the build and the use of LBE but I save the debuffs and the dps leading to other ATs and go for tanking ability from tools where possible. However I will agree now seeing an Incarnate build which is recent, that LBE comes home alot better than ever before.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Wait so... now you're arguing for concept?
 Fact is, LBE gives me and the team very nice DPS due to the -res proc, and Hurl has less DPA than LBE... Also, why another Apoc if I'm already capped for HP? |
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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LBE is not solid. It's mediocre. LBE is not terrible, though, and I never said it was; I said that the Energy Mastery pool is terrible for supplementary attack powers, and I stand by that statement. Slotting Achilles' Heel in LBE and using it as a ghetto debuff (a debuff that doesn't stack, by the way -- and is likely to be covered by at least one other source in a full, high-end team) doesn't suddenly make Energy Torrent a competitive AoE power.|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
While LBE isn't the greatest attack in the APPs it is solid, and takes the -res proc. Against AVs and GMs spamming it will get the proc off sooner or later and coupled with Bruising will give you and your team extra damage.
Is it the best attack in the APP? No, hardly. Is it terrible? Hardly, less so if you know what to do with it. |
The point is that Energy Mastery has a different purpose, mostly endurance management. I explicitly disclaimed that that is an appropriate design decision. It's frankly mystifying that any of this is so very controversial, even to the point where people like Hyperstrike -- whose posts I normally admire -- will go to the trouble first to give me an unsolicited and ambiguous correction, and then, when I respond to clarify, answers with the following gem:
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Never mind. I have better things to do than wrangle over something this insignificant.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Been a while since I've been in the forums, and it's good to see that the arguments about the same dumb thing never change. With that posted, I took Tough Hide because If I play a class I usually like to make my job to be the best at said class. "Its add more Def/Res?" ...I'm getting it. But that's from a guy who came from Diablo, Ultima, etc. As a tank Def/Res>certain attacks. Should it be an inherent? sure that argument was created years ago.
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Note that I never said anything about Energy Torrent, only LBE. And I still stand by my statement of it being solid. Not excellent, not outstanding, just solid. Does every other ST attack in the APPs out do it? Why yes they do. That doesn't mean it isn't a good attack, it's just a solid attack surrounded by better offensive options.
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Hey, different strokes, man. Almost by definition, I'd say that the worst of a given set of analogous options can't be called solid, but this whole solid-not-solid thing is semantics. (Disclaimer: I'm not even sure offhand that LBE is the worst available ST attack in the APPs/Patrons, but I do know that it's markedly worse than at least four other popular options -- Gloom, Fire Blast, Mu Lightning, Ice Blast. I'd imagine the Mace option is worse than LBE by dint of redraw penalties, but I'll have to look it up later.)|
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
Note that I never said anything about Energy Torrent, only LBE. And I still stand by my statement of it being solid. Not excellent, not outstanding, just solid. Does every other ST attack in the APPs out do it? Why yes they do. That doesn't mean it isn't a good attack, it's just a solid attack surrounded by better offensive options.
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The rest is just confusion, it seems: First I say that Energy Mastery (the whole pool, including Torrent) is a "terrible" source of supplemental attack powers. Then you reply to say that LBE "isn't terrible." Then I say that I was talking about the combination of LBE and Torrent. Now you say that you weren't talking about Torrent. We're talking past each other here, and over something that's pretty silly even on a forum the purpose of which is inherently insignificant.
Thus far, I've gotten a lot of vaguely snippy correction over an issue my over-arching theory of which no one has even explicitly questioned. Do you disagree that Energy Mastery is a sub-optimal choice for anything but endurance management and incidental +regen? Do you disagree with the idea that people looking for bona-fide attack powers should go elsewhere? Doesn't seem like you do.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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I can agree that Energy Mastery is sub-optimal except for endurance management and the +regen. However I tend to take Energy Mastery a lot for my toons and like LBE over Hurl. Granted if I wanted better attacks I would go elsewhere. |
Originally Posted by Obitus
Hey, different strokes, man. Almost by definition, I'd say that the worst of a given set of analogous options can't be called solid, but this whole solid-not-solid thing is semantics. (Disclaimer: I'm not even sure offhand that LBE is the worst available ST attack in the APPs/Patrons, but I do know that it's markedly worse than at least four other popular options -- Gloom, Fire Blast, Mu Lightning, Ice Blast. I'd imagine the Mace option is worse than LBE by dint of redraw penalties, but I'll have to look it up later.)
The rest is just confusion, it seems: First I say that Energy Mastery (the whole pool, including Torrent) is a "terrible" source of supplemental attack powers. Then you reply to say that LBE "isn't terrible." Then I say that I was talking about the combination of LBE and Torrent. Now you say that you weren't talking about Torrent. We're talking past each other here, and over something that's pretty silly even on a forum the purpose of which is inherently insignificant. Thus far, I've gotten a lot of vaguely snippy correction over an issue my over-arching theory of which no one has even explicitly questioned. Do you disagree that Energy Mastery is a sub-optimal choice for anything but endurance management and incidental +regen? Do you disagree with the idea that people looking for bona-fide attack powers should go elsewhere? Doesn't seem like you do. |
I believe it is like this: Hurl < LBE < other attacks. I'd still go with LBE, sub-optimal as it is over Hurl. And anything is better than Hand Clap.
The point of the thread is to convince the OP to take Tough Hide and to drop Hand Clap and Hurl.
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Fair enough. The only reason I even brought it up was that I don't think Hurl or LBE is such a mismatched choice that it deserves so much hand wringing -- a premise that seems ironic in retrospect because my stating it spawned even more semi-off-topic talk.|
Originally Posted by UberRod
I can agree that Energy Mastery is sub-optimal except for endurance management and the +regen. However I tend to take Energy Mastery a lot for my toons and like LBE over Hurl. Granted if I wanted better attacks I would go elsewhere.
I believe it is like this: Hurl < LBE < other attacks. I'd still go with LBE, sub-optimal as it is over Hurl. And anything is better than Hand Clap. The point of the thread is to convince the OP to take Tough Hide and to drop Hand Clap and Hurl. |
If your choice is between LBE and Hurl, you're essentially making a conceptual decision, is all. I'd personally tend to agree with you that LBE is better than Hurl, but if someone truly does want an option to ground the occasional flyer and/or just adores the aesthetics of Hurl, then I can't tell them they're wrong -- just as I would never criticize someone for taking LBE to flesh out their Superman-esque character concept.
It all comes down to the build's attack chain. If you're looking to incorporate a ranged attack into your regular attack chain, then LBE is clearly better because it takes up less time and accepts the Achilles' Heel proc. If you already have a continuous ST attack chain and you just want the ranged attack as a mule and for the occasional distant enemy, then it's a toss up: Hurl delivers a larger burst of damage (~63% more than LBE), so it's more likely to kill a wounded runner in one shot, for example. Hurl has a Fly debuff that can potentially make an annoying encounter with a flying opponent much faster.
(It's worth noting that neither LBE nor Hurl is as good as Punch for a continuous ST attack chain. Partly thanks to Bruising -- which essentially forces Tankers to slot and use their fast-recharge Tier 1 attacks -- Tankers generally have a pretty easy time constructing a seamless attack chain without resorting to APP/Patron powers. So if I had to make up a rule of thumb, it would be that you take LBE if you're trying to fit in a ranged-attack mule and your build is so tight that you had to skip Punch as a result. Edit: All of the above assumes you're taking Energy Mastery to begin with, just to be crystal clear.)
To make an over-long story short: Hand Clap is a much bigger problem here, if you can even call it that, than Hurl/LBE.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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What is wrong with Hurl?
Its one of the only ranged attacks in the Tanker secondaries, it does a big chunk of damage if slotted correctly. Drops flying enemies out of the air. Can knock a foe back... useful if you are wanting to come to the aid of a squishy teammate. Can be used with taunt to strategically pull the enemies.
The only downside is the time it takes to do the attack, but its not THAT much slower to execuste than KO blow. Plus if you're using invulnerability, there isn't really going to be a problem with it being interrupted.
Hurl seems to be getting a bit of short change here guys. 
*shrugs* I'd rather take Hurl than any of the APP attacks. Much more fun and visceral animation.
Ranged attacks for my Tanks are more for dropping low health runners, getting attention beyond me if I don't feel like using Taunt, and for fun. Hurl works just fine for all those, and its damage isn't that bad. Great finishing move, too. 
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put 5 enchancements from the Thunderstrike set in it and then just watch it go. I think Hurl is a cool attack. 
The upside of LBE appears to be slightly better DPA (almost nothing much more) but what should in theory be an additional source of -res although I recently read somewhere it might not stack (never having a -res proc in a tank I can neither confirm nor deny).
But the upside of Hurl is the -fly which is good for grounded sets who need the fliers down so that perhaps the whole team can properly get rid of them quicker also in theory should be a greater means to stack threat at a distance with taunt for off of the top of my head it does more damage per activation. Also does greater dam per end and allows for more end recovery over its animation so is more cost effective.
At work still so this maybe otomh baloney that I can not confirm by being Mids-less
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Well, you have to be on the ground to use Hurl. It won't work if you are flying or hovering. |
Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
What is wrong with Hurl?
Its one of the only ranged attacks in the Tanker secondaries, it does a big chunk of damage if slotted correctly. Drops flying enemies out of the air. Can knock a foe back... useful if you are wanting to come to the aid of a squishy teammate. Can be used with taunt to strategically pull the enemies. The only downside is the time it takes to do the attack, but its not THAT much slower to execuste than KO blow. Plus if you're using invulnerability, there isn't really going to be a problem with it being interrupted. Hurl seems to be getting a bit of short change here guys. |
It does knockback, which for a melee based set is a horrible idea. Unless you like chasing your targets around the map. As a tank I refuse to take any powers that do knockback. I need to keep enemies around me, not knocking them away. If I were a blaster or controller, then yes, it would be fun to take.
It also has a longer animation. Granted it's a lot quicker than it used to be, but it's a lot longer than LBE.
In the long run it's the knockback that kills the power for me. That and not being able to use it while flying.
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I can agree with you about Hurl vs LBE. Most likely if I took Hurl, as Grey Pilgrim said, I'd use it to finish off runners. I can see where others would like Hurl better than LBE and that's great. It's not like I would kick someone for taking Hurl from my team. You're are correct in that Hurl vs LBE is a minor debate and not really necessary. |
Originally Posted by Obitus
Fair enough. The only reason I even brought it up was that I don't think Hurl or LBE is such a mismatched choice that it deserves so much hand wringing -- a premise that seems ironic in retrospect because my stating it spawned even more semi-off-topic talk.
If your choice is between LBE and Hurl, you're essentially making a conceptual decision, is all. I'd personally tend to agree with you that LBE is better than Hurl, but if someone truly does want an option to ground the occasional flyer and/or just adores the aesthetics of Hurl, then I can't tell them they're wrong -- just as I would never criticize someone for taking LBE to flesh out their Superman-esque character concept. It all comes down to the build's attack chain. If you're looking to incorporate a ranged attack into your regular attack chain, then LBE is clearly better because it takes up less time and accepts the Achilles' Heel proc. If you already have a continuous ST attack chain and you just want the ranged attack as a mule and for the occasional distant enemy, then it's a toss up: Hurl delivers a larger burst of damage (~63% more than LBE), so it's more likely to kill a wounded runner in one shot, for example. Hurl has a Fly debuff that can potentially make an annoying encounter with a flying opponent much faster. (It's worth noting that neither LBE nor Hurl is as good as Punch for a continuous ST attack chain. Partly thanks to Bruising -- which essentially forces Tankers to slot and use their fast-recharge Tier 1 attacks -- Tankers generally have a pretty easy time constructing a seamless attack chain without resorting to APP/Patron powers. So if I had to make up a rule of thumb, it would be that you take LBE if you're trying to fit in a ranged-attack mule and your build is so tight that you had to skip Punch as a result. Edit: All of the above assumes you're taking Energy Mastery to begin with, just to be crystal clear.) To make an over-long story short: Hand Clap is a much bigger problem here, if you can even call it that, than Hurl/LBE. |
The real meat of the thread, besides the necessity of taking Tough Hide is that Hand Clap is fairly pointless to take. Sure it is good for getting aggro, but you are doing AoE knockback as a melee toon. That to me is always bad and counter productive especially for a tank whose taunt aura depends on keeping enemies close.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
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When I say LBE is solid I don't mean it excels or is a great attack, just that it does the job, does it well and for an acceptable cost and animation time.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Hey, different strokes, man. Almost by definition, I'd say that the worst of a given set of analogous options can't be called solid, but this whole solid-not-solid thing is semantics. (Disclaimer: I'm not even sure offhand that LBE is the worst available ST attack in the APPs/Patrons, but I do know that it's markedly worse than at least four other popular options -- Gloom, Fire Blast, Mu Lightning, Ice Blast. I'd imagine the Mace option is worse than LBE by dint of redraw penalties, but I'll have to look it up later.)
The rest is just confusion, it seems: First I say that Energy Mastery (the whole pool, including Torrent) is a "terrible" source of supplemental attack powers. Then you reply to say that LBE "isn't terrible." Then I say that I was talking about the combination of LBE and Torrent. Now you say that you weren't talking about Torrent. We're talking past each other here, and over something that's pretty silly even on a forum the purpose of which is inherently insignificant. Thus far, I've gotten a lot of vaguely snippy correction over an issue my over-arching theory of which no one has even explicitly questioned. Do you disagree that Energy Mastery is a sub-optimal choice for anything but endurance management and incidental +regen? Do you disagree with the idea that people looking for bona-fide attack powers should go elsewhere? Doesn't seem like you do. |
Just because something is the worst in a given set (In this case the APPs) of options doesn't mean it's not solid. I've been happy with using it, and it does what I need it to do.
In the end, you have your view, I have my view. I respect your view and i hope the same from you.
End debate and go back to Tough Hide?
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Hand Clap, IMO, is a good power to take until around the late 30s, early 40s. It helps you get out of a jam when your defensive powers are still being given slots and developed. However once you have all your armors and got them slotted to a reasonable degree the usefulness declines sharply. By the time your slotted out, SOs, IOs, Hami-Os or whatever, then any time you're getting your backside kicked chances are Hand Clap won't do much more than make noise. |
Originally Posted by UberRod
The real meat of the thread, besides the necessity of taking Tough Hide is that Hand Clap is fairly pointless to take. Sure it is good for getting aggro, but you are doing AoE knockback as a melee toon. That to me is always bad and counter productive especially for a tank whose taunt aura depends on keeping enemies close.
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For a level 50 build ditch Hand Clap and grab something like Hasten, Combat Jumping, Maneuvers or some other power that can be left at one slot and be useful.
Can't remember his build, but thought it was worth bringing up.
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Partially convinced... h/c is going.. th is coming in but hurl is staying at least for now. Simple reason is I want a ranged attack and on balance, think it covers more ground than LBE.
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Originally Posted by UberRod
The point of the thread is to convince the OP to take Tough Hide and to drop Hand Clap and Hurl.
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Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
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One thing is for sure... there is a lot of knowledable people on these boards and ide be pretty silly not to take advantage of that... (2 years away from this game really does make you feel like a newb when you come back!)
Ok. I am going to repec so that I have every invulnerable power (including tough hide )+ tough and weave. I chose flight for my travel power for concept purposes.
I currently only have IOs and will begin creating sets shortly.
Can you please advise me how many slots you think each invul (and tough and weave) power should have if I want to create set enhancements?
My secondary is super strength and I will want to slot that out too.
Any advice?
I know this is really meant for another thread but I'm liking the quality of the posts here..
Thanks in advance.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
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But if your taunt aura power, which is usually key to your defenses, requires that you have lots of enemies around you, how is it good to scatter them away from you? If you are needing Hand Clap because you are waiting to take defensive powers in later levels than I don't have much sympathy for you. I don't know about you, but I only end up with 2 attack powers until my 30's because I'm focusing on getting all the defensive powers as soon as I can. |
Originally Posted by DoctorWhat
Hand Clap, IMO, is a good power to take until around the late 30s, early 40s. It helps you get out of a jam when your defensive powers are still being given slots and developed. However once you have all your armors and got them slotted to a reasonable degree the usefulness declines sharply. By the time your slotted out, SOs, IOs, Hami-Os or whatever, then any time you're getting your backside kicked chances are Hand Clap won't do much more than make noise.
For a level 50 build ditch Hand Clap and grab something like Hasten, Combat Jumping, Maneuvers or some other power that can be left at one slot and be useful. Can't remember his build, but thought it was worth bringing up. |
I could see Hand Clap being useful before you get your taunt aura, in this case Invincibility, which you get at 18. However Hand Clap is available at level 16, which only leaves 2 levels of it being useful. Since it doesn't do any damage it is just an "oh Sh*t kind of power, but since it is an AoE that will build aggro it really isn't giving you that much breathing room as you are forcing more enemies to pay attention to you.
I still maintain that it is a useless power as it is. No damage, and does knockback when your AT requires enemies to stay close. If it just did knockdown, I would take it as a useful aggro tool. As it is now it is useful for squishies only.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
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I'll give you a basic outline of how many slots and what I would put in them. |
Originally Posted by lionsbane_EU
Can you please advise me how many slots you think each invul (and tough and weave) power should have if I want to create set enhancements?
My secondary is super strength and I will want to slot that out too. Any advice? |
Resist Physical Defense: 2-3 slots at most, Steadfast Res/Def and a couple generics.
Temp Invulnerability: 4 slots of Reactive Armor.
Dull Pain: 5 slots of Doctored Wounds.
Unyielding: 4 slots Reactive Armor
Resist Energies: 2 generic resist IOs (can take this later in the build)
Invincibility: 6 slots, 4 Luck of the Gambler, and 2 Rectified Reticle.
Resist Elements: 2 generic resists (this can be pushed back or possible skipped altogether)
Tough Hide: 3 LotG
Unstoppable: I wouldn't take this at all.
SS attacks:
All single target attacks should get 4 Kinetic Combat and maybe a Nucleolus Hami O. I'd skip Punch and Hand Clap.
Hurl: 6 slots Thunderstrike or 3 Thunderstrike/3 Devastation
Taunt: 4 slots Mocking Beratement
Foot Stomp: 6 slotted 4 Eradication, 1 Scirocco's Dervish Dam/Rech, Force Feedback Chance for +Recharge
Tough: 4 Reactive Armor
Weave: 3-4 LotG
Air Superiority slotted the same as your ST attacks.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
That's a great help. Thank you
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
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FYI, if you have TI, Tough, and UY fully slotted, you don't need more than the Steadfast +Def and one common IO in RPD to hit the S/L resistance cap. So don't bother with a third slot unless you're looking for a specific bonus.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I'll give you a basic outline of how many slots and what I would put in them.
Resist Physical Defense: 2-3 slots at most, Steadfast Res/Def and a couple generics. |
If you decide to go for the T2 Cardiac Alpha, you won't even need the second slot in RPD, just put the Steadfast +Def in the base slot.
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The DEF debuff sets aren't that spectacular in comparison with the normal ranged-damage sets. They're not even particularly good, depending on what your build's goals are (Apocalypse, Decimation, Devastation, and Thunderstrike offer bonuses that are at least as attractive to Tankers in the general case, probably much more attractive overall.)
Which leads me back to the original statement: Energy Mastery is worth taking if you want the endurance management or are taking it for concept (usually Laser Beam Eyes). As far as supplementary attacks go, Energy Mastery's terrible, and that's probably (and appropriately) by design.