Quote:
My mistake, I just re-read your post and realized I'd seen it wrong, I'd thought you were saying that you had reached the soft cap. That's what I get for posting something when I'm dead tired.|
Originally Posted by lionsbane_EU
I appreciate the rest of your answer but would point out you miss read my question.
I never said I reached the cap, I was wondering, what with changes that have gone on in my absense, if it was now possible (with my current build that has tough and weave but not tough hide) without Tough hide. |
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Take a look at Call Me Awesome's guide to Invuln tankers and the soft cap.
Nearly all the goodness of a Stoner in Granite and none of the speed and damage penalties. |
Nearly in this sentence is a vast exaggeration.
Quote:
Aside from all of the reasons why you should have both - if you only can take one of them - then you want Tough Hide and not Weave.|
Originally Posted by lionsbane_EU
Does tough hide increase my imperviousnes or defence by any significant degree?
|
Tough Hide
- Costs no endurance
- Can take the same sets
- Provides the same Defense
- Provides Defense Debuff resistance
Quote:
^|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
I'm all for attacks, believe me!
However, if you want to skip an Invul power to make room for another power, IMO Res Elements is the one to skip. F/C damage is not terribly common and the secondary benefit, slow resistance, is nice but something you can live without. |
This.
Resist Elements is your most skippable power. You can get some slow resistance by putting a Winter's Gift in a travel power, so you can live without the power.
Tough Hide also has half your defense debuff resistance (the rest is in RPD). That alone is a good reason to take it, even if you don't need the defense. You'd be amazed how fast that defense will disappear once you start getting tagged by defense debuffs (My softcapped BS/DA scrapper knows this well)
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Actually it really isn't that much. I have both Stone and Inv at 50... yes the Stone is more durable but the difference is fairly minor and there's nothing I've done with the Stone that an Invuln can't do nearly as easily.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Nearly in this sentence is a vast exaggeration.
|
Both tankers are, in 99.999% of the game, unkillable. In those few edge cases the Stone does have an advantage true, but on most of them if it's nasty enough to drop the Invuln it's probably nasty enough to drop the Stone as well. Frankly considering the functional near equality in durability over the vast majority of the game and the considerable penalties a Stone pays for that durability I give the overall nod to Invuln.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Quote:
First I'll say that I highly prefer Invuln over Stone, and I understand completely what you are getting at.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Actually it really isn't that much. I have both Stone and Inv at 50... yes the Stone is more durable but the difference is fairly minor and there's nothing I've done with the Stone that an Invuln can't do nearly as easily.
|
I play Brutes, and hold aggro on them, so I'm familiar with being "survivable enough" and making do with lesser numbers.
I just don't think 79% resistance to Energy/Negative/Fire/Cold/Toxic + 200% additional Regen from Rooted (which can get you to 70 hp/s or so) vs. 31% to those same Exotics as minor.
That's nearly 50% difference in resistance to those types of damage.
Now, if you want to argue that its more survivability than you will ever need - I'll up the ante and say that you should continue along that line of thought and play a Brute instead.
The pros to LBE that people put forward makes me wonder. What non concept build on any Tanker has an extremely essential Laser Beam Eyes? I think maybe once I might of seen a build where it was ever so tight to achieve its goal where I thought to myself well that could be the one and only time. Hurl on the other hand is something I've always liked as it does -fly and when I was a grounded tanker (footstomp is grounded anyway) found it had great utility. I may fly now but its still great to stack with taunt to make sure aoe damage can be directed away from the squishie gank and spankers surrounding a tough AV if needed or saves me the bother of air lifting.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
It's not just about efficiency though, Dawn. A concept player is every bit as valid as a built as an efficiency one. When all is said and done It's a game. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
The pros to LBE that people put forward makes me wonder. What non concept build on any Tanker has an extremely essential Laser Beam Eyes?.
|
I am NOT a meat shield Tanker. I know what my job is for the team but I like to get my licks in too....
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
Quote:
I have an Inv/SS build that has a Jab-LBE-Haymaker-KOB-LBE-Haymaker attack chain, and focuses on tons of regen so Physical Perfection helps there.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
The pros to LBE that people put forward makes me wonder. What non concept build on any Tanker has an extremely essential Laser Beam Eyes? I think maybe once I might of seen a build where it was ever so tight to achieve its goal where I thought to myself well that could be the one and only time. Hurl on the other hand is something I've always liked as it does -fly and when I was a grounded tanker (footstomp is grounded anyway) found it had great utility. I may fly now but its still great to stack with taunt to make sure aoe damage can be directed away from the squishie gank and spankers surrounding a tough AV if needed or saves me the bother of air lifting.
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http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...D9FF00A447D334
Code:
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Not really. Outside of a couple of very specific enemy types, I can (and have) AFK-tank exactly the same way I can with a stoner running Granite.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Nearly in this sentence is a vast exaggeration.
|
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
I'll have to have a look at it later, currently at work.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
So basically you are saying that you can mitigate the damage by avoiding problem enemies - that doesn't make Invuln as tough as Stone.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Not really. Outside of a couple of very specific enemy types, I can ...
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Quote:
No, he's saying that for the vast majority of content both Inv and Stone can afk in the middle of a group. For the mobs where Inv can't do that in most cases Stone can't either.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
So basically you are saying that you can mitigate the damage by avoiding problem enemies - that doesn't make Invuln as tough as Stone.
|
Nobody disputes that Stone is the most durable tanker in the game. On the other hand it comes loaded with penalties and Inv is functionally as good in nearly every instance without any penalty.
Stone is better against high tohit exotic damage mobs... but Invuln is capable of handling them nearly as easily given a competent player and decent build.
Offhand the only situation I can think of where Stone has a clear advantage over Invuln is tanking the tower buffed Lord Recluse in the STF. Inv can do it solo, but you'll need either team buffs or an appropriate inspiration loadout. Stone can do it with minimal inspirations and no team buffs. In every other situation I can think of the superior mobility, recharge and damage of Inv is a better choice.
Full disclosure here, I have 4 level 50 tankers and two of them are Stone. (Stone/EM and Stone/Fire) I like the Stone/Fire tanker and it's fun to play... still there's nothing it can do that my Inv/Stone tanker can't do also.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Quote:
Stones designed to sit there and take it because there is not alot else it can do whereas other Tankers can make decisions like run |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
So basically you are saying that you can mitigate the damage by avoiding problem enemies - that doesn't make Invuln as tough as Stone.
|
Like remove certain attacks from an AVs choice, AV's can be compelled to hit you, but can only hit you with certain attacks if any depending on you and the AV. Brains over braun type of thing, although only a small amount of brains.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Completely not what I said.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
So basically you are saying that you can mitigate the damage by avoiding problem enemies - that doesn't make Invuln as tough as Stone.
|
Is a stoner in Granite weak because they're vulnerable to psi?
What I'm saying is, when talking about heavily optimized builds on Invuln and Stone, the differences in survivability for 90+% of the game is virtually negligible.
Differences in amounts of resistance are meaningless if I'm never getting hit.
Differences in the amounts of regen are meaningless if I'm rarely getting hit and resisting the damage down to a level that my native regen can easily overcome it.
And I'm not talking about avoiding the enemies in question. Merely that I can't play like a scrapper on crack and button-mash my way through. I have to be more intelligent about how I play.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
I love tanks, and I tried a stone tank once upon a time before I switched to invulnerability.
Ive seen stone tanks in action and they can take an unmerciful pounding from a variety of different damage types. The problem is all the penalties you need to overcome. Like in Granite mode, you become less accurate (I can understand that) and do less damage (That I can't understand)
The slowness, I can understand, but its really bad unless you load out for extra speed.
If Invulnerability did not have such low resistance to fire, cold, toxic, energy and negative. It would probably be, hands down, THE best protective powerset in the entire game for any purpose. Most invulnerable tanks even with cardiac and a few set bonuses can only hope for 35 to 38% resistance to those exotic types. Which I understand as if those were even 45% you wouldn't need any other protective set on your brutes/tankers/scrappers would you? But you can get round that with Defence to the exotics, even now my defence to a variety of attacks is absolutely enormous and Im not done with IO's yet. And when you factor Invincibility into the mix... what I get used to seeing now is.. deflected, deflected, deflected... etc. LOL
Quote:
Yes it has. It originally provided 7.5% defense to smashing/lethal/energy/negative energy/fire/cold. With the Global Defense Reduction, that dropped to 5%.|
Originally Posted by Fireheart
Um, Tough Hide has Not been changed in the revamps of Invulnerability
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Aside from that, it also gained 25% Defense Debuff Resistance.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
I have an Inv/SS build that has a Jab-LBE-Haymaker-KOB-LBE-Haymaker attack chain, and focuses on tons of regen so Physical Perfection helps there.
http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/downl...D9FF00A447D334 Code:
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I got home and looked at it. My advice is to swap LBE out for Hurl and add another Apoc. You're a grounded character and its best to look awesome and knock fliers down in order for the team to boof them up. I wouldn't want say, Siege to be 27ft above me with me with only LBE for an attack chain or have to hop alot.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Wait so... now you're arguing for concept? |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I got home and looked at it. My advice is to swap LBE out for Hurl and add another Apoc. You're a grounded character and its best to look awesome and knock fliers down in order for the team to boof them up. I wouldn't want say, Siege to be 27ft above me with me with only LBE for an attack chain or have to hop alot.
|
Fact is, LBE gives me and the team very nice DPS due to the -res proc, and Hurl has less DPA than LBE...
Also, why another Apoc if I'm already capped for HP?
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
It comes down to LBE being very quick, no restrictions being used while flying and doesn't cause knockback. And it's a ranged power. The -def, while nice, isn't an OMG! kind of thing. I'd much rather take a minor -def than any power that does knockback as a tanker or scrapper.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
The pros to LBE that people put forward makes me wonder. What non concept build on any Tanker has an extremely essential Laser Beam Eyes? I think maybe once I might of seen a build where it was ever so tight to achieve its goal where I thought to myself well that could be the one and only time. Hurl on the other hand is something I've always liked as it does -fly and when I was a grounded tanker (footstomp is grounded anyway) found it had great utility. I may fly now but its still great to stack with taunt to make sure aoe damage can be directed away from the squishie gank and spankers surrounding a tough AV if needed or saves me the bother of air lifting.
|
Now I hear tell that Energy Torrent in Energy Mastery does Knockdown and is a cone. I may have to go with this instead.
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
Quote:
Now if we can just get you to dump Hand Clap...
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Originally Posted by lionsbane_EU
Well, the answer to that is I want my guy to be as all round powerful as I can, and that does include offensive powers. So I was hoping to free up a slot to allow me to pick up a range attack. (attack is but a name for another defence right?)
But I'm not stupid enough to not listen to the pretty much unanimous opinion put out by my peers. Tough hide it is. |
Uber Talgrim - level 50 emp/dark defender
Uber Rod - level 50 dark melee/regen scrapper
Rod Valdr - level 50 invuln/SS tanker
Talgrim - level 50 ninja/dark mastermind
OMG!! Please add these costume designs now!
Quote:
It's going.. it's going...|
Originally Posted by UberRod
Now if we can just get you to dump Hand Clap...
|
But you know it does have it's uses. I was doing the ITF and we were completely mobbed. I was tanking ok.. no one was dying but it was insane.. someone mustve pulled another mob into the mix (or two) So i found a couple of handclaps DID give the group a bit of breathing space...
I will miss it cause I don't want to necessarily trade efficiency for concept (plus it's one iof the few SS powers that LOOKS good.. but I have to admit this is a clear instance where the trade off is too extreme for me to ignore.
Tough hide here I come.
Don't get into a flap. It's only my opinion and I'm thick
Arc 56763 Lord Anarchys heaven
2 mission arc. Bring friends cause Lord Anarchy means business...
Quote:
Let's be honest: Laser Beam Eyes is a pretty crappy attack as far as APP powers go. The ability to slot the -RES proc is a decent consolation prize, but the proc alone is not worth saddling yourself with such a low DPA attack unless you're taking it for concept. (Which is fine.)|
Originally Posted by UberRod
It comes down to LBE being very quick, no restrictions being used while flying and doesn't cause knockback. And it's a ranged power. The -def, while nice, isn't an OMG! kind of thing. I'd much rather take a minor -def than any power that does knockback as a tanker or scrapper.
Now I hear tell that Energy Torrent in Energy Mastery does Knockdown and is a cone. I may have to go with this instead. |
Hurl is at least as bad, though it does give you a mildly useful situational -Fly debuff. I was surprised to find, just now, that Hurl actually has a marginally higher DPA than LBE (27ish versus 24, at base damage levels), but even so Hurl animates almost 1 second slower. Whatever on-paper DPA advantage Hurl has is, in other words, more than absorbed by the practical disadvantage (opportunity cost) of leveraging the power regularly.
You can make an argument either way; it just strikes me as bizarre to see such a long debate over what are both, objectively, mediocre attack powers. If you have to take one or the other, then sure, but do it with the understanding that the choice itself is heavily sub-optimal. The bottom line is that you take Energy Mastery for the endurance management and a smidge of extra +regen. Or you take it for concept.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
Quote:
Or you take it so you can slot LBE up as a nice set mule on top of everything else.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
The bottom line is that you take Energy Mastery for the endurance management and a smidge of extra +regen. Or you take it for concept.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
However, if you want to skip an Invul power to make room for another power, IMO Res Elements is the one to skip. F/C damage is not terribly common and the secondary benefit, slow resistance, is nice but something you can live without.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012