Well Babylon 5 clearly got you to think about quite a few things which is great praise in and of itself. Many TV series are so shallow and pointless that they are forgettable 5 minutes after you watch them, but here you are making in-depth comments about a series that started over 18 years ago now.
Just as an FYI to you J. Michael Straczynski (the guy who created Babylon 5) is an atheist, and a strongly professed one at that. But what's remarkable about that is that he respectfully and dispassionately allowed many of his Babylon 5 characters to have very strong religious foundations and beliefs and never tried to spin his stories towards trying to discredit or belittle anyone who professed religious faith. You may have disliked how the various religious and political elements of the show were handled, but for the time (mid-1990s) it really was groundbreaking. BTW the United States does relatively well allowing people to believe that any religion is "sacrosanct" and still have a functional government for all. If we can do it now then I'd think a bunch of space aliens in the future can do it too. 
Like you say there might be better "fully planned out" TV series out there now, but that concept pretty much did not exist before Babylon 5 so we do owe the series credit for that at the very least.
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One has to understand that the 'fully planned out nature' of Babylon 5 ran into a harsh wall of reality which threw things askew.
Season 1 did a lot of set up, but got a wrench thrown in when the station captain left the series (no loss since he couldn't act to save his life). Thus the story had to be modified and a new commander introduced.
Seasons 2-3 are what many view as the strongest part of the series.
At some point in there P-Ten (I think that was the name of the independent distributor which carried it) croaked. I can't remember all the details too well (I don't remember if TNT picked them up in season 4 or 5), but one way or another, after season 3 what was expected to be two more years to finish became an expectation of one. Thus season 4 ends up being really rushed with the wrap up of the war. Then they were given a reprieve and season 5 was given the go ahead. This mean that the story line planned for that year had already been crammed into season 4. As such you end up with some mix of filler and prologue for that season.
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No, we have the opposite stated in the US constitution and letters of the founding fathers. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
BTW the United States does relatively well allowing people to believe that any religion is "sacrosanct" and still have a functional government for all. If we can do it now then I'd think a bunch of space aliens in the future can do it too.
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We have a secular government...or at least we are supposed to... how things work and such is another issue. Holding any religion as sacrosanct causes problems and holding all sacrosanct causes infinitely more. We hold that NO religion or belief is sacrosanct and that no religion is to be promoted or held to be true or false thus allowing each citizen to make up their own mind about their beliefs.
And actually he did put a story in there that shows why religion is bad that people ignore in real life, it's expected they'd ignore it in a fake world too.
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I think you're getting thrown by your definition of the word sacrosanct.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
No, we have the opposite stated in the US constitution and letters of the founding fathers.
We have a secular government...or at least we are supposed to... how things work and such is another issue. Holding any religion as sacrosanct causes problems and holding all sacrosanct causes infinitely more. We hold that NO religion or belief is sacrosanct and that no religion is to be promoted or held to be true or false thus allowing each citizen to make up their own mind about their beliefs. |
Something being sacrosanct does not mean it's perfect to the exclusion of everything else. It simply means that it is something that shouldn't be questioned or dismissed as false. This is why you can easily have multiple religions all being sacrosanct all at the same time. Sure individual religions might teach that other religions are false, but that's their problem not the other religions'.
So the idea of a secular government allowing for the protection and tolerance of any religion's "sacrosanct-ness" is a perfectly reasonable concept. Like I said it's been working in the United States relatively well for over 200 years now. *shrugs*
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Originally Posted by Durakken
And actually he did put a story in there that shows why religion is bad that people ignore in real life, it's expected they'd ignore it in a fake world too.
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All of this.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I think you're getting thrown by your definition of the word sacrosanct.
Something being sacrosanct does not mean it's perfect to the exclusion of everything else. It simply means that it is something that shouldn't be questioned or dismissed as false. This is why you can easily have multiple religions all being sacrosanct all at the same time. Sure individual religions might teach that other religions are false, but that's their problem not the other religions'. So the idea of a secular government allowing for the protection and tolerance of any religion's "sacrosanct-ness" is a perfectly reasonable concept. Like I said it's been working in the United States relatively well for over 200 years now. *shrugs* Straczynski explored many different aspects of religion both good and bad. I was just making the point that despite his atheism it was actually quite interesting that he was willing to respectfully and seriously cover many religious topics that cast religion in both good and bad lights depending upon the context of the stories. Basically it was arguable that he handled religion in much more mature ways as an atheist than many actual religious people do. |
One can be an atheist yet still have/show respect for religion. They aren't mutually exclusive.
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Quote:
The sad truth of the matter is that usually it's people that believe in god who can't accept/respect other peoples faith in religions that aren't their own.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
One can be an atheist yet still have/show respect for religion. They aren't mutually exclusive.
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Anyway let's get off this topic before the mods feel the need to step in.
{EDIT}Nm. Religious debate is never a good thing to get into on the forums.
Suffice it to say Atheist /= Antitheist, but sadly gets lumped together.
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Just to be clear, my post had nothing to do with debating religion or wasn't intended to be or say anything more than it did and only pertaining to the OP and the discussion of this thread. So please noone take it for more than was written. (Not a fan of discussing politics or religion online anyway.)
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Quote:
I'm sorry if my comment may have lead you or anyone else to that conclusion. That was not my intent. I was just suggesting a change of focus to prevent the chance of accidentally crossing a line the mods might choose to act on.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Just to be clear, my post had nothing to do with debating religion or wasn't intended to be or say anything more than it did and only pertaining to the OP and the discussion of this thread. So please noone take it for more than was written. (Not a fan of discussing politics or religion online anyway.)
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We were very lucky the other day when they chose to let us briefly discuss a current event that had it's roots in religion and since I don't see the thread around I think they decided to remove it.
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As far as cast changes happening off camera, well things like that can happen. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
I finally was able to watch it all the way through...
It was better than I had previously given credit to it with some good comedy, action, speeches, and philosophical incites... The problems with it that i have largely come from pacing and a lot of stuff happens off camera... like almost every cast switch in the series. Sinclair, the first doctor, Lyta, Ivanova, and just about every about every cast switch you hear about them having left in between episodes up until the very last season where everyone is leaving. Speaking of the last season... I would have loved to see that cast get a chance to shine... having 2 strong female leads, the new Narn ambassador, and Vir Koto... and possibly a new Mimbari ambassador... though like they said in the last episode them leaving did make it sort of redundant...to which they should have made B5 the home port of the Alliance which would have made more sense than moving it to mimbari... They were buying the station any ways so wth? and that leads me to my other problem with the series... It's called something like the first fully planned out sci-fi tv series ever, but I've seen better laid out and executed series. A war every season is just stupid when you consider it is a year each season and if they were really series about making a new franchise they should have planned out waaaaay further and took their time telling the stories in a more realistic time line. (which btw...all the war and such are accelerated but apparently having all the advanced tech around for some reason has them with a pretty slow learning timeline from what we see in the future eps) characters leave off screen as if they didn't know they were going to lose them as part of the cast while at the same time many things in the show are "just so" moments where a lot of things just happen due to the story needing them to happen rather than them happening plausibly. (next part may be a bit too politcal/religious oriented. It's political philosophy and supporting a given political stance, but rather how that given political philosophy acts within those occurrences) And lastly for a show that tried to set down such political ideals they really did sort of mess up. They had Penn and Teller on there and they were unallowed to do anything political messages. They tried raise the ideals of the secular government, but noone raised an issue with the whole "what's earth's major religion" which should have been straight said that none are endorsed over another OR it should have been expressed in better language that the freedom of choice is held above any given religion. G'Kar put in that all religions are "sacrosanct" but that is antithetical to a secular organization trying to promote peace. You simply can not hold all beliefs to be sacrosanct as most religious beliefs are contradictory and are unresolvable if both are held sacred. No government of the nature we are talking about would ever hold to that. They seem to not understand their own political philosophic beliefs and while they wanted to promote secularism, unity, and peace they did quite a lousy job and described a world which could never reach those goals due to their own inability to understand the problem with both secularism and the sacrosanctness of religion. (end of political/religous discussion) Overall the show seems more of a jumbled mess than a well thought out story, but a pretty entertaining ride. |
Patrica Tallman who played Lyta Alexander: I think it was a salary issue or she was pregnant, not sure which.
The station doctor and first officer changing from pilot to series, not unheard of for changes to occur between a pilot and series start. Plus it makes sense that Earth's govt. would want to have words with a doctor and telepath that saw a Vorlon.
Commander Sinclair.....acting skills or lack thereof not withstanding, there were many behind the scenes politicking about him that prompted his removal. Though it was good they got him back to wrap up the whole Babylon 4 story.
Talia Winters: as I recall the actress wanted to leave the show, or it was money issue: can't recall which. But her removal via the "Secret personality" thing was odd since one would think that when Jason Ironheart boosted her powers he would have detected and removed that secret personality. Also that sub plot of Kosh recording her mind wasn't followed up on. Though I did chuckle at how Bester in S3 made it clear that Talia was gone for good. "we learned many interesting things from her in the course of her debriefing and dissect......er....examination."
Quote:
As I said and explained the US does not hold any religion sacrosanct.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
It simply means that it is something that shouldn't be questioned or dismissed as false. This is why you can easily have multiple religions all being sacrosanct all at the same time. Sure individual religions might teach that other religions are false, but that's their problem not the other religions'.
So the idea of a secular government allowing for the protection and tolerance of any religion's "sacrosanct-ness" is a perfectly reasonable concept. Like I said it's been working in the United States relatively well for over 200 years now. *shrugs* |
If someone were to perform a mayan human sacrifice to Quetzalcoatl they would be prosecuted under the law, which is secular.
The reason anything Sacrosanct doesn't work is because it cannot be challenged. If according to my belief you should be put to death it cannot be question and you must be put to death. Under this law everyone who is not x should be killed instantly. It's unquestionable and you can't say its wrong and if you can't say its wrong or question it then it is right in the eyes of the law, especially when it makes positive claims.
It is simply a poorly worded point in the script and isn't what was meant, probably, by the writer. What was meant is that religions would be respected and honored within the alliance. Which is generally ok, but over time, as we have seen in real life, nutters will make that stance slowly be retracted. This was written 20 years ago so its understandable that it wasn't considered at the time.
Quote:
Yeah that's about the only one done on screen and done over the course of a few eps|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Talia Winters: as I recall the actress wanted to leave the show, or it was money issue: can't recall which. But her removal via the "Secret personality" thing was odd since one would think that when Jason Ironheart boosted her powers he would have detected and removed that secret personality. Also that sub plot of Kosh recording her mind wasn't followed up on. Though I did chuckle at how Bester in S3 made it clear that Talia was gone for good. "we learned many interesting things from her in the course of her debriefing and dissect......er....examination."
|
Lyta comes back
Talia reveals herself and is taken away
Lyta is put in Talia's place and Bester makes it clear she isn't coming back
Each event happens in a dif episode
In the case of Sinclair...
1episode "We're getting a new captain!" "where's sinclair?" "He went to minbar" "why?" "Someone wanted him there!"
There are also numerous movies and books that are available. I would recommend reading the trilogies that deal with the Technomages, Centauri Prime, and Psi Corps. The Technomage trilogy deals with the life of Galen and reveals just how they use their sorcery. Centauri Prime deals with the aftermath of the bombing of Centauri Prime. Psi Corps deals with the history of the Psi Corp and the life of Bester. I don't recall what the names are for the trilogy or books. The other books are the standard SF official fanfiction that seems to be too common with science fiction series.
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Quote:
Well with Sinclair there was a lot of behind the scenes studio politicking that was behind the decision to replace the actor. My memory is a bit dusty on the matter, but I don't think JMS wanted him gone but the decision was also out of his hands. |
Originally Posted by Durakken
Yeah that's about the only one done on screen and done over the course of a few eps
Lyta comes back Talia reveals herself and is taken away Lyta is put in Talia's place and Bester makes it clear she isn't coming back Each event happens in a dif episode In the case of Sinclair... 1episode "We're getting a new captain!" "where's sinclair?" "He went to minbar" "why?" "Someone wanted him there!" |
Also you may want to visit this link for some interesting details about the actor that played Sinclair.
http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum...ael-ohare.html
At least they worked Sinclair's departure into the revised story by making him the leader of the Rangers and how he reformed them in modern times after Valen first created them 1000 years ago, then of course we get the resolution to Babylon 4 and the revelation that Sinclair's life is temporal circle in that he IS Valen and must go back with B4 or history changes.
Makes one wonder what could have happened if Sinclair were killed before he went back to become Valen:
1. Another becomes Valen
2. History for the past 1000 years alters to in the dark future we saw where the Shadows were even stronger.
Quote:
As is typical in such things, the decision about renewal for Season 5 was not made until well after Season 4 was filmed and finished. As a result, the last episode of Season 4 was written to be the last episode of the series, and to make no references to events of Season 5. That way, if S5 were canceled, they'd show that ep at the end of S4. And when S5 was approved, they put that episode aside and didn't air it until after the complete run of Season 5. Which worked, but left the last episode as rather disjointed.
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Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Thus season 4 ends up being really rushed with the wrap up of the war. Then they were given a reprieve and season 5 was given the go ahead. This mean that the story line planned for that year had already been crammed into season 4. As such you end up with some mix of filler and prologue for that season.
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Quote:
You mean something that very clearly crosses the line like this?...|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I'm sorry if my comment may have lead you or anyone else to that conclusion. That was not my intent. I was just suggesting a change of focus to prevent the chance of accidentally crossing a line the mods might choose to act on.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The sad truth of the matter is that usually it's people that believe in god who can't accept/respect other peoples faith in religions that aren't their own.
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And after taking your swipe, you say:
Quote:
| Anyway let's get off this topic before the mods feel the need to step in. |
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Quote:
Your hyperbolic, hyper-strict interpretation of the word 'sacrosanct' and what you perceive as an "incorrect" usage of it in a sci-fi TV show is vaguely amusing. On the other hand if this criticism of yours is going to be one of the main things you remember about this show in years to come then I find that to be a bit unfortunate for your sake. *shrugs*
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Originally Posted by Durakken
As I said and explained the US does not hold any religion sacrosanct.
If someone were to perform a mayan human sacrifice to Quetzalcoatl they would be prosecuted under the law, which is secular. The reason anything Sacrosanct doesn't work is because it cannot be challenged. If according to my belief you should be put to death it cannot be question and you must be put to death. Under this law everyone who is not x should be killed instantly. It's unquestionable and you can't say its wrong and if you can't say its wrong or question it then it is right in the eyes of the law, especially when it makes positive claims. It is simply a poorly worded point in the script and isn't what was meant, probably, by the writer. What was meant is that religions would be respected and honored within the alliance. Which is generally ok, but over time, as we have seen in real life, nutters will make that stance slowly be retracted. This was written 20 years ago so its understandable that it wasn't considered at the time. |
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Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
You mean something that very clearly crosses the line like this?...
And after taking your swipe, you say: Riiiight. You can make your comment, but others shouldn't. |
With all due respect Zombie, I think you misunderstood my statement. I wasn't taking a swipe at any religions but at the people who are intolerant of others beliefs and use religion to justify their hate.
Yeah B-5 was one my favorites show of all time and that never going to change, glad you like it as well.
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Ah, no no. No worries. Debate was likely the wrong word for me to use. I should have said "Discussion" as I wasn't even presenting ideas that necessarily differed from what had been put forth earlier in the thread, more expounding upon them.|
Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Just to be clear, my post had nothing to do with debating religion or wasn't intended to be or say anything more than it did and only pertaining to the OP and the discussion of this thread. So please noone take it for more than was written. (Not a fan of discussing politics or religion online anyway.)
|
I just thought to myself as soon as I hit the Post button, "this is the internet" and "no good can come of this" so I decided to just remove my post.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
I finally was able to watch it all the way through...
It was better than I had previously given credit to it with some good comedy, action, speeches, and philosophical incites...
The problems with it that i have largely come from pacing and a lot of stuff happens off camera... like almost every cast switch in the series.
Sinclair, the first doctor, Lyta, Ivanova, and just about every about every cast switch you hear about them having left in between episodes up until the very last season where everyone is leaving.
Speaking of the last season... I would have loved to see that cast get a chance to shine... having 2 strong female leads, the new Narn ambassador, and Vir Koto... and possibly a new Mimbari ambassador... though like they said in the last episode them leaving did make it sort of redundant...to which they should have made B5 the home port of the Alliance which would have made more sense than moving it to mimbari... They were buying the station any ways so wth? and that leads me to my other problem with the series...
It's called something like the first fully planned out sci-fi tv series ever, but I've seen better laid out and executed series. A war every season is just stupid when you consider it is a year each season and if they were really series about making a new franchise they should have planned out waaaaay further and took their time telling the stories in a more realistic time line. (which btw...all the war and such are accelerated but apparently having all the advanced tech around for some reason has them with a pretty slow learning timeline from what we see in the future eps) characters leave off screen as if they didn't know they were going to lose them as part of the cast while at the same time many things in the show are "just so" moments where a lot of things just happen due to the story needing them to happen rather than them happening plausibly.
(next part may be a bit too politcal/religious oriented. It's political philosophy and supporting a given political stance, but rather how that given political philosophy acts within those occurrences)
And lastly for a show that tried to set down such political ideals they really did sort of mess up. They had Penn and Teller on there and they were unallowed to do anything political messages. They tried raise the ideals of the secular government, but noone raised an issue with the whole "what's earth's major religion" which should have been straight said that none are endorsed over another OR it should have been expressed in better language that the freedom of choice is held above any given religion. G'Kar put in that all religions are "sacrosanct" but that is antithetical to a secular organization trying to promote peace. You simply can not hold all beliefs to be sacrosanct as most religious beliefs are contradictory and are unresolvable if both are held sacred. No government of the nature we are talking about would ever hold to that. They seem to not understand their own political philosophic beliefs and while they wanted to promote secularism, unity, and peace they did quite a lousy job and described a world which could never reach those goals due to their own inability to understand the problem with both secularism and the sacrosanctness of religion.
(end of political/religous discussion)
Overall the show seems more of a jumbled mess than a well thought out story, but a pretty entertaining ride.