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Originally Posted by Vanden
So right now you can only level pact two characters together as long as both are under level five. Even when this system was introduced they told us they were looking at removing that limitation down the line. So what's the hold up? After the introduction of Super-sidekicking I can't think of any exploits letting us pact at any level would allow, and even before that it seemed fairly benign. So yeah, pact at any level please!
But why stop there? Let's remove more limitations! Let us pact up to, I dunno, 50 characters! Just a random number I picked because that's the most players that can simultaneously experience content together (Hamidon raids). There's nothing wrong with super-teams, why not let them make it easier to stay together? Oh and I don't know if it does this already and neither does this wiki, but they should allow sharing of Physical and Psychic XP, too. |
Sorry this would be far to easy to abuse horribly. Level 50's that have no more use for experience would be used to insta level dozens of characters up to level 50 via level pacts.
I guess you don't know how it works when one pactmate is lower than the other. The higher level guy gets exemped to the lower level guy permanently until the lower level one catches up.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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It doesn't matter if the higher level character is exemped or not. A level 50 doesn't need any more exp so the abuse would still be that one character (the 50) will be doing all the work earning the xp while the others simply log in and level up.|
Originally Posted by Vanden
I guess you don't know how it works when one pactmate is lower than the other. The higher level guy gets exemped to the lower level guy permanently until the lower level one catches up.
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Level_Pacts
And even if the higher level player in a level pact is exemped down to the lower level member. The higher level character is still free to join higher level teams/TF's, Leagues and be auto exemped back up via super sidekicking.
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Forbin beat me to it, but that's the exact quote.|
Originally Posted by Paragon Wiki
If the two in the pact do not have the same experience, as can be the case at the creation of a leveling pact when, for example, a level 4 character gets leveling pacted with a level 1 character, then the higher level character will receive no experience and the lower level character receive all the experience until they catch up to the same level.
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So unfortunately, this would be the ultimate power-leveling tool, since the lower level character would be gaining all the xp even when not online, with no hindrance to the lvl 50 character since they can't gain any xp anyway. If they made it so 2 level 50s could pact together, and maybe share incarnate xp at some cost (reduced inf gains or something), that could be something worth looking into.
As for expanding the number of pact members...
I am all for encouraging groups of people to play together on a regular basis. But the more people you add to a pact, the more places the xp has to be distributed. Experience returns could get excruciating small, and make leveling quite a chore. You would also have to input a system to allow yourself to unpact with a certain member of the group, but not everyone, to allow for situations where one person of the group becomes inactive.
It looks incredibly complicated, and does not seem to be a feature the devs nor the player base are particularly concerned with at the moment. I like the feature, don't get me wrong, I just don't think we will expansion on it for a long while.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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We have plenty of powergamers who have multiple accounts that wouldn't be bothered by having the xp divided between 3-4 of their alternate accounts as long as they can get an instant 50 without having to do any of the 1-50 content.
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Originally Posted by Winterminal
Forbin beat me to it, but that's the exact quote.
So unfortunately, this would be the ultimate power-leveling tool, since the lower level character would be gaining all the xp even when not online, with no hindrance to the lvl 50 character since they can't gain any xp anyway. If they made it so 2 level 50s could pact together, and maybe share incarnate xp at some cost (reduced inf gains or something), that could be something worth looking into. |
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So exempt level 50s?|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
/unsigned
Sorry this would be far to easy to abuse horribly. Level 50's that have no more use for experience would be used to insta level dozens of characters up to level 50 via level pacts. |
I think other than that it's a great idea, mainly because I have a *lot* of duos, either created prior to pacts, or whose pacts broke while I was away from the game that I'd like to repact. And no, rerolling a level 39 emp/psi defender, level 22 ice/storm corruptor, level 30-ish crab, or level 28 fire/fire scrapper or blaster are not options.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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You could always put a window limit in place so that you can form pacts at any level but only if all characters involved are within, say, 5 levels of each other.
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I used 50's in my example because they are the most obvious way to abuse the suggested changes to level pacts. Another way would be Praetorians. |
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
So exempt level 50s?
I think other than that it's a great idea, mainly because I have a *lot* of duos, either created prior to pacts, or whose pacts broke while I was away from the game that I'd like to repact. And no, rerolling a level 39 emp/psi defender, level 22 ice/storm corruptor, level 30-ish crab, or level 28 fire/fire scrapper or blaster are not options. |
See Praetorians get 100k prestige the first time they join an SG so someone with a main account could make a bunch of praetorians on alternate accounts then using level pacts, powerlevel them up to 20 and then invite them into an SG for the huge prestige boost they'll get. That prestige doesn't go away when the characters quit the SG so they can be deleted after joining and the process repeated.
But I'm just pointing out what I think are the most obvious problems with the idea. If they can be resolved then I have no other objections to making the changes.
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I believe Vanden was suggesting they remove the 5 level limit as well as the limit on the number of characters that can join a level pact at the same time.
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Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
You could always put a window limit in place so that you can form pacts at any level but only if all characters involved are within, say, 5 levels of each other.
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My concern with the leveling pact is if you broaden it too far it's going to be abused. I would like to see a pact where the characters are within 5 levels of each other but if not then I like it the way it is. Also, the wisdom of doing this only at the beginning prevents a lot of problems and probably only vets will use this because new people won't understand this the first time. If someone isn't commited to their character fully they won't do the leveling pact.
Honestly, I think the leveling pacts are a relic at this point. A lot of the intended functionality seems to have been superseded by Super Sidekicking. Part of the reason for leveling pacts was to allow to characters to always be the same level, so that when they did play together they could experience the same thing without the need for Sidekick Tetris.
I do know a few players who used leveling pacts as a way to *slow down* XP gain on a character they wanted to play, while simultaneously leveling up a character that they wanted to mess around with, but only at a higher level. (For example, a Fire/kin that they wanted for solo farming.) The characters that they actually mostly played and teamed with were pacted to offline characters that were really just along for the ride. I know one other who used it as a way to powerlevel two characters at once. The characters would be pacted (one from each of that player's accounts) and then one of them would join an AE team or some other farming map.
With Super Sidekicking, I can't really see the devs putting much more time into leveling pacts. For most players, SSK serves the purpose of allowing to characters to "always play together," with the only real exception being task forces, and other level-gated content like Cimerora.
Note, I'm not claiming that there aren't legitimate uses of leveling pacts. I just think that those are probably served "well enough" by the existing systems that the devs probably aren't going to make any additional changes a real priority.
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My reason for using the leveling was not "to be on the same level" but to share the "cost" of leveling a toon. My friends have some toons they want to level over the next year. Leveling will let us do this will less effort.
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Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Honestly, I think the leveling pacts are a relic at this point. A lot of the intended functionality seems to have been superseded by Super Sidekicking. Part of the reason for leveling pacts was to allow to characters to always be the same level, so that when they did play together they could experience the same thing without the need for Sidekick Tetris.
I do know a few players who used leveling pacts as a way to *slow down* XP gain on a character they wanted to play, while simultaneously leveling up a character that they wanted to mess around with, but only at a higher level. (For example, a Fire/kin that they wanted for solo farming.) The characters that they actually mostly played and teamed with were pacted to offline characters that were really just along for the ride. I know one other who used it as a way to powerlevel two characters at once. The characters would be pacted (one from each of that player's accounts) and then one of them would join an AE team or some other farming map. With Super Sidekicking, I can't really see the devs putting much more time into leveling pacts. For most players, SSK serves the purpose of allowing to characters to "always play together," with the only real exception being task forces, and other level-gated content like Cimerora. Note, I'm not claiming that there aren't legitimate uses of leveling pacts. I just think that those are probably served "well enough" by the existing systems that the devs probably aren't going to make any additional changes a real priority. |
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No, it doesn't. When the faceplanting starts, debt knocks everything out of alignment. And leaving them logged out for 10+ days to eliminate the debt and get a full batch of patrol XP is not a (good) solution.
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Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
Honestly, I think the leveling pacts are a relic at this point. A lot of the intended functionality seems to have been superseded by Super Sidekicking. Part of the reason for leveling pacts was to allow to characters to always be the same level, so that when they did play together they could experience the same thing without the need for Sidekick Tetris.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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How? How is the level 50 going to powerlevel the theoretical level 1? He still earns level 1 XP for the pact. If he joins a high level mission team how is that any different from the level 1 joining the high-level team himself? And if it's a matter of the level 50 getting back his 49 levels of powers if he gets SSKed back up, then that's an incredibly easy-to-figure-out fix of making it not do that.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
It doesn't matter if the higher level character is exemped or not. A level 50 doesn't need any more exp so the abuse would still be that one character (the 50) will be doing all the work earning the xp while the others simply log in and level up.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Level_Pacts And even if the higher level player in a level pact is exemped down to the lower level member. The higher level character is still free to join higher level teams/TF's, Leagues and be auto exemped back up via super sidekicking. |
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Where does it say that the higher level character only earns experience as if it were the same level as the lower level character?|
Originally Posted by Vanden
How? How is the level 50 going to powerlevel the theoretical level 1? He still earns level 1 XP for the pact. If he joins a high level mission team how is that any different from the level 1 joining the high-level team himself? And if it's a matter of the level 50 getting back his 49 levels of powers if he gets SSKed back up, then that's an incredibly easy-to-figure-out fix of making it not do that.
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It doesn't.
What it actually says is that if a higher level character enters a pact with a lower level character, the higher level character won't earn any experience, and the lower level character will get all the experience until the lower level character catches up to the same level.
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| If the two in the pact do not have the same experience, as can be the case at the creation of a leveling pact when, for example, a level 4 character gets leveling pacted with a level 1 character, then the higher level character will receive no experience and the lower level character receive all the experience until they catch up to the same level. |
You're getting confused about what happens when characters the same level form a pact and when characters of different levels form a pact.
So you're just assuming the worst, and then concluding that if that's the way it is now, the suggestion is hopeless because it's not like things like that could ever be changed.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
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Originally Posted by The_Spad_EU
You could always put a window limit in place so that you can form pacts at any level but only if all characters involved are within, say, 5 levels of each other.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I believe Vanden was suggesting they remove the 5 level limit as well as the limit on the number of characters that can join a level pact at the same time.
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@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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Riiight. And when people found they could exploit the AE when it was launched they acted responsibly, reported the exploits, and never took advantage of them to the point where the devs were forced to step in and not only permanently lock out abusers ability to create story arcs but also delete characters that were created and powerleveled by abusing the exploits. |
Originally Posted by Vanden
So you're just assuming the worst,
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| and then concluding that if that's the way it is now, the suggestion is hopeless because it's not like things like that could ever be changed. |
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
But I'm just pointing out what I think are the most obvious problems with the idea. If they can be resolved then I have no other objections to making the changes.
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I'm not. As I clarified with Vanden just now,|
Originally Posted by Rylas
Still, Spad's suggestion is pretty reasonable. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water, right? There's not much room for abuse once characters are withing 5 levels of each other. I'd probably level cap it at 25, but that's me.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
But I'm just pointing out what I think are the most obvious problems with the idea. If they can be resolved then I have no other objections to making the changes.
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By "the worst" I meant that it would be horribly exploitable, not that people would use it for that, because obviously they would. ("The best" would be that people would not be able to exploit it.)|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Riiight. And when people found they could exploit the AE when it was launched they acted responsibly, reported the exploits, and never took advantage of them to the point where the devs were forced to step in and not only permanently lock out abusers ability to create story arcs but also delete characters that were created and powerleveled by abusing the exploits.
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| Sorry Vanden I never said that. In fact I posted just the opposite. |
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
/unsigned
Sorry this would be far to easy to abuse horribly. Level 50's that have no more use for experience would be used to insta level dozens of characters up to level 50 via level pacts. |
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| I think what's happening here is that since I'm the first one to point out the flaws in your idea and you can't think of a solution to them your blaming me for pointing out the flaws in the first place. |
In fact, here's one idea I had to counter exploitation:
Problem: When players pact at different levels, the lower-level player effectively earns double XP while both play until the lower-level catches up to the higher-level.
Solution: Until the lower level character catches up, the lower-level character keeps all XP it earns. The higher-level character's earned XP goes into a temporary "bank." When the lower-level catches up to the higher-level, the banked XP is split evenly between the two characters. No XP is lost, and the lower level can't be powerleveled with pacts.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.
Could there just not be a cap on the number of levels a character can gain via a leveling pact? Say 5-10, after that the character cannot join another pact.
When I pacted my level 5 character with my wife's level 1, I actually LOST those 4 levels I had gained when I did so. As in, I had to re-train those levels and choose my powers over again.
If that's how it worked I can't see too many people being willing to sacrifice umpteen levels on their 50 in order to pact to a lower character (especially as it would probably result in the loss of any Incarnate stuff too)
I could see maybe extending the pacting level range up to level 20 or so, since that seems to be a popular level to gate things at lately. But that's about as far as I'd take it.
Don't think I'd support more than 2 in a pact unless presented with some really good arguments for it. Super Sidekicking already allows us to play together at any level.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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How many leveling pacts can 1 character create? I assumed 1-1 but can you do more? If so, what are the ramifications.
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Originally Posted by TheSceneCommander
Could there just not be a cap on the number of levels a character can gain via a leveling pact? Say 5-10, after that the character cannot join another pact.
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Claws, are you sure? How did you initiate the pact? I just did 5 pacts last week and some were at my level but others pacts the user was higher. On the higher user, I got to "train" up and now it's my turn to do lifting.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
When I pacted my level 5 character with my wife's level 1, I actually LOST those 4 levels I had gained when I did so. As in, I had to re-train those levels and choose my powers over again.
If that's how it worked I can't see too many people being willing to sacrifice umpteen levels on their 50 in order to pact to a lower character (especially as it would probably result in the loss of any Incarnate stuff too) I could see maybe extending the pacting level range up to level 20 or so, since that seems to be a popular level to gate things at lately. But that's about as far as I'd take it. Don't think I'd support more than 2 in a pact unless presented with some really good arguments for it. Super Sidekicking already allows us to play together at any level. |
So right now you can only level pact two characters together as long as both are under level five. Even when this system was introduced they told us they were looking at removing that limitation down the line. So what's the hold up? After the introduction of Super-sidekicking I can't think of any exploits letting us pact at any level would allow, and even before that it seemed fairly benign. So yeah, pact at any level please!
But why stop there? Let's remove more limitations! Let us pact up to, I dunno, 50 characters! Just a random number I picked because that's the most players that can simultaneously experience content together (Hamidon raids). There's nothing wrong with super-teams, why not let them make it easier to stay together?
Oh and I don't know if it does this already and neither does this wiki, but they should allow sharing of Physical and Psychic XP, too.
Issue 16 made me feel like this.
Warning: This poster likes to play Devil's Advocate.