powerset freeform - would it ruin or enhance the game?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-18 09:38 in Suggestions and Ideas
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And not everyone who wants a freeform option wants to min/max, and wouldn't even have optimal builds if we could.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Perosnally, I feel free-form building is a bad idea in general, and for a couple of reasons:
1. It's hard to balance so that a few optimal builds don't completely overshadow all the others, and it kind of defeats the point if such a balancing were even possible. 2. Not everyone gets into these games to play them like a developer. Not everyone wants to compose an entire build from scratch, determining how much protection, AoE, single-target, buff and so forth make for a good character, especially outside of any specific regulations. A lot of people - myself included - would prefer to see the game do most of the work in balancing our builds. Freedom isn't just sunshine and rainbows. It's also a responsibility, and a game which slaps you with too many consequence-heavy choices too early in its gameplay rarely has good retention. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Freeform power selection has proven to be too unbalancing on both ends of the power spectrum. What I would like to see done is add power themed archetypes like speedsters (Flash, Quicksilver), savage heroes (Wild Child, Sabretooth), acrobats (Nightwing) and the like. We could call them Paragons!
^
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
It really just means that you can't have T3 Regeneration on every toon.
Now, for CoX (vastly superior game to any of the current superhero alternatives imnsho), free-form is a terrible thing. Period. There's another one
@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8
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While arguably true, the game would still be massively unbalanced by the larger percentage of people that would want to min/max.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
And not everyone who wants a freeform option wants to min/max, and wouldn't even have optimal builds if we could.
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^
"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
Man I didn't think I had to go into more detail but for some it may help. The free-form wouldn't be available to every tom, dick or harry that just joined the game. I'd say 3 yrs investment or 36 month badge gives someone access. As for the balancing deal = easy fix. Limit this new addition to only certain trials or a quarterly pvp olympics (say three days since it might cut into actual non-free form pvp time) in Recluse's Victory. How much of a time investment it would be is hard to gauge. Would folks be interested in it? Heck yeah they would. And frankly how many issues have we paid for other than subs here at COH and yet the game still lives on.
As for this:
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Are you serious?? Do you truly think in this day and age that people are still that ignorant not to take a gander of a guide created by devs at the launch of a game? A simple message in the launch screen will be noticed by over 70% of consumers. But companies are on a crunch to deliver a product in a certain time period and with the ease of information today it falls on the consumer to create the guides. Thanks to those willing to provide it free of charge!
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
and remember only a small portion of the playerbase bothers to come to the forums of any MMO so those guides would be a waste of time unless experienced players took the time to lead new people here to find and use them.
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You fail to realize that what you want would not only be a nightmare for the game itself, but a nightmare just to code. Not only that, but you would have every Tom, Dick and Harry who hasn't hit their 3yr mark yet screaming on the boards and in game that "it isn't fair, we want it NOW or we will QUIT!!!". What part of, this is not a good idea in any way, shape or form is that hard to understand?
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Originally Posted by BeastMan
Man I didn't think I had to go into more detail but for some it may help. The free-form wouldn't be available to every tom, dick or harry that just joined the game. I'd say 3 yrs investment or 36 month badge gives someone access. As for the balancing deal = easy fix. Limit this new addition to only certain trials or a quarterly pvp olympics (say three days since it might cut into actual non-free form pvp time) in Recluse's Victory. How much of a time investment it would be is hard to gauge. Would folks be interested in it? Heck yeah they would. And frankly how many issues have we paid for other than subs here at COH and yet the game still lives on.
As for this: Are you serious?? Do you truly think in this day and age that people are still that ignorant not to take a gander of a guide created by devs at the launch of a game? A simple message in the launch screen will be noticed by over 70% of consumers. But companies are on a crunch to deliver a product in a certain time period and with the ease of information today it falls on the consumer to create the guides. Thanks to those willing to provide it free of charge! |
Yeah, add a massively game-breaking feature that everone would want to use to, well, break the game.
And if THAT won't cause enough backlash, gate it behind real world time played.
BRILLIANT!!!!
Are you TRYING to destroy the game? Or do you really still think this is a good idea?
Yes, I'm being derisive, because this really is that bat-guano stupid of an idea.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by BeastMan
Are you serious?? Do you truly think in this day and age that people are still that ignorant not to take a gander of a guide created by devs at the launch of a game? A simple message in the launch screen will be noticed by over 70% of consumers. But companies are on a crunch to deliver a product in a certain time period and with the ease of information today it falls on the consumer to create the guides. Thanks to those willing to provide it free of charge!
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You either weren't playing the game or you are deliberately refusing to remember all the screaming and hollering that went on by players that refused to read the guides when
1. The market was introduced and the people (many of whom were vets of 3+ years) who didn't read the market instructions had all the items in their market slots deleted when they exceeded the 60 day rule. Those complaints went on for years until the devs finally removed the 60 day rule.
2. When the AE was introduced for months we were flooded with complaints about people who never read the instructions and didn't know how to leave Atlas Park to get to another zone, they didn't know what regular contacts were, they didn't know what enhancements were, or that there was anything going on outside the AE building.
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/4387...bies-episode-1
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/2415...bies-episode-2
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You appear to fail to grasp just how overpowering this would be and, by extension, just how big of an impact it will have on the game. Gating it behind veteran status only serves to create a community of haves and have-nots. Bad idea, just on its face.|
Originally Posted by BeastMan
I'd say 3 yrs investment or 36 month badge gives someone access.
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| As for the balancing deal = easy fix. Limit this new addition to only certain trials or a quarterly pvp olympics (say three days since it might cut into actual non-free form pvp time) in Recluse's Victory. How much of a time investment it would be is hard to gauge. Would folks be interested in it? Heck yeah they would. And frankly how many issues have we paid for other than subs here at COH and yet the game still lives on. |
This is like requesting that the developers port the game into the Unreal 3 engine just for the sake of having animated hair, and then gate animated hair behind the requirement to own AutoAssault. It's expensive, it's pointless and it's self-defeating.
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| Are you serious?? Do you truly think in this day and age that people are still that ignorant not to take a gander of a guide created by devs at the launch of a game? A simple message in the launch screen will be noticed by over 70% of consumers. But companies are on a crunch to deliver a product in a certain time period and with the ease of information today it falls on the consumer to create the guides. Thanks to those willing to provide it free of charge! |
Furthermore, you fail to account for the fact that "a launch screen notice" is a one-time thing. You can't clutter the Launch screen with announcements that "Hey! This new horrible system we just added is great!" when it's three years down the line. You can't put that in the MOTD, either, and since new people join the game and old players take breaks, you have to ensure such a message exists in the game for the long term. This is what I'm talking about when I say there are no easy solutions, just bad solutions. Your solution is bad.
Additionally, for a developer to take the position that the players will figure it out and write his documentation for him is remarkably stupid, to say nothing of a complete travesty of the job of a game developer, which is to deliver games which we can actually play. Games that ship without documentation don't last long, even in "this day and age."
Furthermore, you seem to be operating off the belief that you know better than the development staff, in regards to how many people visit the forums. They're the ones that have the real numbest, and the "only 10% of players visit the forums" stat is coming from them, and as such is a REAL statistc. Possibly a rounded one, but real nonetheless.
And, no, it's not the player's duty to trawl the 'net, looking for a manual for the game he just bought. It's the developer's duty to provide one, as well as to provide in-game instructions. To fail that is to fail as a developer.
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You have a remarkably high opinion of yourself. What you are pushing for is a largely unimportant, uninteresting little gimmick that has an enormous opportunity cost, massive support challenges and brings just about nothing to the game, but the fulfilment of a personal pet peeve, and worst of all, it flies in the face of established precedent. Don't act surprised with the responses you're getting.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You know majority of the "vets or common readers" don't suggest ideas, frankly because it gets a major blacklash from the all knowing. Would this kill the game, why not its in the minds of the all knowing and are afraid of change. Is it a waste of money. Sure just like facebook and CEO that makes more than Oprah. Does this game have years upon years left to run. Sure, everyone enjoys the same mindless grinding and now we have beautiful raids that isn't turning anyone away from the game. Oh and guides made by the devs, its for new games not just COH. Why should they care, its for future reference don't get bent out of shape about it. I haven't seen anyone on the DCUO and CO forums flocking to the helpful posts that were made by consumers because the devs were either too busy or saw no money to be made by them. Back before IO sets this game was pretty easy to figure out the mini and maxes but after thats when it turned into a beginning nightmare. I left the game because at time there wasn't good explanations on the IO sets and the confusion wasn't worth my sub. I came back to try it again since GR was so cheap during black friday it was worth it to check it out.
A quote made by a consumer that explains alot on free-form:
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It isn't always overpowered but hey I think we get the point on whether those that chime in will see it as. | However, with all this customization, and the ability to pick and choose as you wish, the complexity that this allows also creates a steep learning curve. So many options available means there are many combinations that can leave your character underperforming, weak, subpar, or at worst, almost unplayable. These kinds of combinations are where many new players can get caught up, not understanding exactly how the game's synergies work, and what is effective vs what is not. |
Why do I bother, its just a suggestion and was just a question. Normally I know anything that doesn't agree with the certain masses will get butchered and throw out in the alley. That's fine, no biggie here it is after all just a game!
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Is it the time of year or something else? Just noticing a lot more posts lately that if you don't absolutely agree 100% with the most awesome idea of all time, then people are mean, angry vets with millions of posts tearing people down with evil backlash. |
Originally Posted by BeastMan
The idea taken after an post stating following GR that COH has maybe 2.5 yrs left got me thinking of what if they introduced freeform powersets; picking what powers you want in a archtype instead a set as it currently is. Could this destroy a game or enhance it?
I don't know how long an mmo has for lifeblood but with guildwars not being out as long as coh, it at least is coming out with a "2" hopefully at the end of the year. |
FWIW BeastMan, look at your OP. Not a lot of detail here and making some erroneous assumptions like the game will be gone in a few years. Anyhow, I see a lot of good feedback here if you wanted to follow up and address them, like making extreme builds using free form to show overpowered vs. gimped maximus, and how Aedon's build could be balanced in the game content or even things like why you think a 3 year gate is good (people with multiple accounts could have new accounts <3 years but definitely would know the game, why should they wait?).
This quote you made pretty much effectively killed your own argument:
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Why would you want to introduce something to the game after 7 years that will be horribly abused by min/maxers AND make the game incredibly more complicated for new players at the same time? That quote was absolutely right about the new player experience in this game already. and that's WITHOUT there being hundreds of possible choices at any given power choosing level. Give people the ability to take any power they want and you are going to make the game nearly impossible for a new player to learn. | However, with all this customization, and the ability to pick and choose as you wish, the complexity that this allows also creates a steep learning curve. So many options available means there are many combinations that can leave your character underperforming, weak, subpar, or at worst, almost unplayable. These kinds of combinations are where many new players can get caught up, not understanding exactly how the game's synergies work, and what is effective vs what is not. |
Gating it behind 3 years vet status is a horrible idea. Do you remember the $#^%storm over Veteran Rewards? A huge number of people immediately came to the forums and started screaming about how it isn't fair that vet players get things new players don't. Do you REALLY want to give veteran players something THIS game-changing and tell the new players they aren't allowed to have it? That will go over well, I'm sure.
And, you seem to be convinced that people are against you because they fear change and want to use their vet status and post count to shout you down. That isn't even CLOSE to what is happening. What IS happening is you posted a really, really BAD IDEA and people aren't being shy about telling you how bad an idea it really is. That's all.
Go ahead and feel persecuted if you like, it doesn't change the fact that freeform power selection is a horrible idea and is almost 100% guaranteed to NEVER happen.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I blame constipation. |
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Is it the time of year or something else? Just noticing a lot more posts lately that if you don't absolutely agree 100% with the most awesome idea of all time, then people are mean, angry vets with millions of posts tearing people down with evil backlash.
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Or it could be that you're incapable of accepting that you're wrong and are instead projecting malevolence on those who disagree with you. What's next? Our post counts are too large? Our titles are funky? We get together to plot and plan? I doubt you can come up with more creative insults than trolls before you have developed.|
Originally Posted by BeastMan
You know majority of the "vets or common readers" don't suggest ideas, frankly because it gets a major blacklash from the all knowing.
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Originally Posted by BeastMan
Why do I bother, its just a suggestion and was just a question. Normally I know anything that doesn't agree with the certain masses will get butchered and throw out in the alley. That's fine, no biggie here it is after all just a game!
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Don't flatter yourself, please. A martyr you are not.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You know, they could make something close to what they've already done with Widows.
Some VEAT like ATs, that gives you multiple options for each tier, but you can only choose one.
Kinda like how Widows pick BU or FU, but not both.
Good way to get a Combat Specialist AT (*continues to dream of a Dual Pistol/Blade/Martial Arts and Defense character*)
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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That's not a freeform powerset, though. It's just a branching powerset. Things like these have been suggested for a long time - since before Soldiers of Arachnos, actually - and they've always been good ideas. However, retrofitting existing sets to behave like this seems like an impossible undertaking, just for the sheer workload it would involve.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
You know, they could make something close to what they've already done with Widows.
Some VEAT like ATs, that gives you multiple options for each tier, but you can only choose one. Kinda like how Widows pick BU or FU, but not both. Good way to get a Combat Specialist AT (*continues to dream of a Dual Pistol/Blade/Martial Arts and Defense character*) |
I'd like it, though.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, sorry I didn't know the lingo. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's not a freeform powerset, though. It's just a branching powerset. Things like these have been suggested for a long time - since before Soldiers of Arachnos, actually - and they've always been good ideas. However, retrofitting existing sets to behave like this seems like an impossible undertaking, just for the sheer workload it would involve.
I'd like it, though. |
But, that said, Branching may be a good compromise to go with then. Not quite freeform, but a little more variety for new (and very likely wanted) concepts.
An Elemental Tree that gives different options of Fire/Ice/Electrical Offensive/Summoning Primary and Fire/Ice/Electrical Armor/debuffs/buffs.
This and the Combat Specialist would be awesome ATs to make use of the 3 possible builds on one character.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
It would ruin the game for two reasons. Less re-playability, as something completely different than prior characters. And the powersets would all be weaker with about the same effects in a different wrapper.
What they need to do is make a bunch of new powersets and add a few new AT's.
Archery still needs an Arrow Manipulation Secondary which could be the same as Trick Arrow, minus the debuffs with an, Imbued Arrow power replacing Build-Up and, of course, Boost Range!
Energy Weapons (Ionic, Cosmic, Mythic) is a common, but missing, comic book powerset that could be a new Melee Set with some ranged attacks.
CoH is far from complete and is begging for some obvious new powersets and even AT's. Then they could take all that into CoH2 at a later date.
Quixotik
"I did not say this. I am not here." -Guild Navigator
Archetypes give you a good sense of direction when selecting / building a character and make teaming interesting.
I think freeform powersets would ultimately make the game pretty bland.
/unsigned
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And yet when people want new ATs that fit in with very common comic book staples, they all say "/unsigned" |
Originally Posted by Quixotik
It would ruin the game for two reasons. Less re-playability, as something completely different than prior characters. And the powersets would all be weaker with about the same effects in a different wrapper.
What they need to do is make a bunch of new powersets and add a few new AT's. Archery still needs an Arrow Manipulation Secondary which could be the same as Trick Arrow, minus the debuffs with an, Imbued Arrow power replacing Build-Up and, of course, Boost Range! Energy Weapons (Ionic, Cosmic, Mythic) is a common, but missing, comic book powerset that could be a new Melee Set with some ranged attacks. CoH is far from complete and is begging for some obvious new powersets and even AT's. Then they could take all that into CoH2 at a later date. |
Ranged/Defense...so common it's not funny
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I think it would be nice if there was an expansion to the ancillary power pools that allowed us to choose one or two teir 1 powers to help round out character concepts. They wouldn't have to be powerful, just customizable and they could unlock at level 6 like the other power pools. Furthermore the powers in question could be unslottable like temp powers are.
In doing it this way players would have to think about whether or not it's worth sacrificing being able to choose more useful powers later on while still not gimping the existing build completely.
Perosnally, I feel free-form building is a bad idea in general, and for a couple of reasons:
1. It's hard to balance so that a few optimal builds don't completely overshadow all the others, and it kind of defeats the point if such a balancing were even possible.
2. Not everyone gets into these games to play them like a developer. Not everyone wants to compose an entire build from scratch, determining how much protection, AoE, single-target, buff and so forth make for a good character, especially outside of any specific regulations. A lot of people - myself included - would prefer to see the game do most of the work in balancing our builds.
Freedom isn't just sunshine and rainbows. It's also a responsibility, and a game which slaps you with too many consequence-heavy choices too early in its gameplay rarely has good retention.