Agree on the stupidity of the ending. Creatures don't recognize the ability to use weapons, the ability for abstract thought (forming of strategies), wearing of artificial coverings, or the ability to communicate as signs of intelligence. But making fire is absolute proof.
Don't count your weasels before they pop dink!
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I actually thought it was rather interesting. The creatures are alien, after all... and there doesn't seem to be any other form of intelligence. So they wouldn't know what a gun was... or what clothing was... and it doesn't know English, so the people talking would have seemed like random noises to them. The only reason it would even know a gun was dangerous was if it saw one fired....|
Originally Posted by Mandu
Agree on the stupidity of the ending. Creatures don't recognize the ability to use weapons, the ability for abstract thought (forming of strategies), wearing of artificial coverings, or the ability to communicate as signs of intelligence. But making fire is absolute proof.
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I don't think it's outside the realm of believability that these things, at the very least, could have about the intelligence of a somewhat advanced cavemen. And if they've encountered fire before... and recognized the fact that a thinking being would know how to create such a thing... Sure, why not? It might not be absolute proof, but it's enough to make it think twice before eating it... and that was enough to help them escape.
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Guess what? In order to recognise fire as a sign of intelligence the creatures obviously had to have encountered a tool using species. Therefore while they may not recognise the tools (guns) being used by the humans they would recognise them as tools and as a sign of intelligence.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Crag
I actually thought it was rather interesting. The creatures are alien, after all... and there doesn't seem to be any other form of intelligence. So they wouldn't know what a gun was... or what clothing was... and it doesn't know English, so the people talking would have seemed like random noises to them. The only reason it would even know a gun was dangerous was if it saw one fired....
I don't think it's outside the realm of believability that these things, at the very least, could have about the intelligence of a somewhat advanced cavemen. And if they've encountered fire before... and recognized the fact that a thinking being would know how to create such a thing... Sure, why not? It might not be absolute proof, but it's enough to make it think twice before eating it... and that was enough to help them escape. |
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Not necessarily. I could in theory train a monkey to shoot with a gun designed for their hands. The monkey wielding a gun doesn't prove a sign of intelligence, only that it can be trained to use a gun. The aliens recognizing fire could mean that they have created fire before and recognize humans having something in common with them.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Guess what? In order to recognise fire as a sign of intelligence the creatures obviously had to have encountered a tool using species. Therefore while they may not recognise the tools (guns) being used by the humans they would recognise them as tools and as a sign of intelligence.
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The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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That same theoretical monkey could be trained to start a fire with a flamethrower designed for their hands. And that cave had no evidence that the creatures could make fire themselves. If it had then TJ would have noticed it and known the creatures were intelligent to some degree. If the creatures were capable of making fire the one place they would use it would be in their lair.
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Originally Posted by starphoenix
Not necessarily. I could in theory train a monkey to shoot with a gun designed for their hands. The monkey wielding a gun doesn't prove a sign of intelligence, only that it can be trained to use a gun. The aliens recognizing fire could mean that they have created fire before and recognize humans having something in common with them.
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Imposing human values on aliens. Fire could have a religious meaning for them so they might only use it for religious ceremonies and/or sending their dead to the next life so having a fire pit in their cave could be unthinkable. The only thing that matters is they understand fire, they don't understand guns.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
That same theoretical monkey could be trained to start a fire with a flamethrower designed for their hands. And that cave had no evidence that the creatures could make fire themselves. If it had then TJ would have noticed it and known the creatures were intelligent to some degree. If the creatures were capable of making fire the one place they would use it would be in their lair.
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The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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Sorry Star but using fire for warmth, cooking, or attack/defense isn't imposing "human" values on aliens. It's simple cause and effect.|
Originally Posted by starphoenix
Imposing human values on aliens.
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The forest they were in on that planet was in the temperate region as evidenced by the flora and fauna and thus is subject to seasonal changes. The lair was up above the forest in rocky hills or even mountains suggesting that area is located in a higher altitude of the planet which would be more exposed to seasonal and weather changes. Under those circumstances it isn't unreasonable that a creature that knows how to create fire will also know that fire can be used to keep warm when it's cold.
Any creature that is intelligent enough to recognise that the creation of fire is a sign of intelligence is also smart enough to know that fire can be used to keep other predators from entering the cave in which it makes it's home. Or it could be used to attack other predators.
It's also not hard to see how an alien creature that knows how to make fire could figure out some winter that the frozen animal it found would be easier to eat if it was warmed up next to the fire it made and thus invent cooking.
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| Fire could have a religious meaning for them so they might only use it for religious ceremonies and/or sending their dead to the next life so having a fire pit in their cave could be unthinkable. The only thing that matters is they understand fire, they don't understand guns. |
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I was rather taken with his approach to teaching a lesson in caution. And I don't think it is an approach he would have taken even 4 episodes ago.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
So this week we got to see how Rush dealt with Eli's rebellious feelings. I have to admit I liked how he sneakily asserted his authority without them figuring it out.
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I actually would have preferred the episode being just exploring the ship over the hunt outside of it.
But it's MY sadistic mechanical monster and I'm here to make sure it knows it. - Girl Genius
List of Invention Guides
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I agree. What happened on the ship was the highlight of the episode. What happened on the planet was just an excuse to kill off a bunch of Lucian Alliance characters. Oh and a way to prune that guys crush on the female scientist.
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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
I was rather taken with his approach to teaching a lesson in caution. And I don't think it is an approach he would have taken even 4 episodes ago.
I actually would have preferred the episode being just exploring the ship over the hunt outside of it. |
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Where is the proof that religion isn't a purely human invention. Assuming that there is some god that has communicated with his creations to lead them on the right path, then aliens will have religion. Of course, by religion it could be any action that does not have an immediate or noticeable benefit. Religion does not need to deal with a god. There are numerous religions where there was no all-powerful group of gods or one god.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Now you are the one imposing "human" values on alien creatures. You are assuming that religion isn't a purely human invention.
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The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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Where's your proof that religion does exist elswhere in the universe. Your whole argument is based on the assumption that alien life forms think like humans, and your defense is that it must be true because it can't be disproven.|
Originally Posted by starphoenix
Where is the proof that religion isn't a purely human invention. Assuming that there is some god that has communicated with his creations to lead them on the right path, then aliens will have religion. Of course, by religion it could be any action that does not have an immediate or noticeable benefit. Religion does not need to deal with a god. There are numerous religions where there was no all-powerful group of gods or one god.
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Using your own circular logic I can claim that religion can't possibly exist outside of earth because you cannot prove that earth isn't the only planet in the universe containing intelligent life.
Sure it would be nice if aliens had religion, because it would give us something we have in common ground we could hopefully build upon.
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Originally Posted by starphoenix
Fire could have a religious meaning for them...
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
assumption
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What I was trying to get across is that, in a universe filled with all kinds of alien life forms who could have any combination of technology and intelligence, the idea that a beast-like being recognizing fire as a sign of intelligence (and not guns or 'tools') is entirely possible because it might not recognize a gun as a 'tool'. Especially when considering the creature from the cave never left the area (from what I can tell) and never saw any action outside of the initial attack on Grier and the group. If it never saw a gun being fired, it wouldn't even know what it was or what it was for. For all it knew... it was just some random object the human was carrying and could not be used as proof of intelligent life. That would be an assumption on the aliens part. Half of what makes a tool what it is... is the act of use.
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That discussion isn't about possibilities and absolutes it was about imposing human values on alien creatures. The applications/uses of fire isn't a human value. |
Originally Posted by Rock_Crag
I just love it when people confuse possibilities with absolutes.
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| What I was trying to get across is that, in a universe filled with all kinds of alien life forms who could have any combination of technology and intelligence, the idea that a beast-like being recognizing fire as a sign of intelligence (and not guns or 'tools') is entirely possible because it might not recognize a gun as a 'tool'. Especially when considering the creature from the cave never left the area (from what I can tell) and never saw any action outside of the initial attack on Grier and the group. If it never saw a gun being fired, it wouldn't even know what it was or what it was for. For all it knew... it was just some random object the human was carrying and could not be used as proof of intelligent life. That would be an assumption on the aliens part. Half of what makes a tool what it is... is the act of use. |
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Hhmmm.... I believe my thinking was off. For some reason I was thinking an assumptions only dealt in absolutes... and that... because star use the word 'could'... that it wasn't an assumption at all.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
That discussion isn't about possibilities and absolutes it was about imposing human values on alien creatures. The applications/uses of fire isn't a human value.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
In our discussion I went with the generic term "tool" because being an alien it might not initially recognize a gun as a weapon until it was used. I would argue that the creature at the cave may have learned about what guns can do from the group that was attacking the rescuers. They obviously had some form of communication skills because the attacks on the rescuers stopped after the one in the cave determined the humans were intelligent.
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It is just as likely to find an alien race close to us as it is find a race completely alien to us. I would find it hilarious if every alien race looks and acts exactly like us except for the obvious different culture so slightly different beliefs.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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Perfectly fine with that. Why then did the other creatures stop attacking once the creature in the cave decided the humans were intelligent? No one in the rescue party made fire, and it's been argued that guns aren't a sign of intelligence.|
Originally Posted by Rock_Crag
But we don't actually see the cave beast communicate with the others. It's possible... but if you're going to call out Star on an assumption, I'm afraid I'll have to call you out on this one.
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Communication doesn't require more than animal intelligence. Everything from whales and dolphins to ants and bees can communicate with each other. If there was no communication between the creatures then the humans should have all been killed before they got back to the gate.
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Yeah like the ol' Star Trek aliens. |
Originally Posted by starphoenix
It is just as likely to find an alien race close to us as it is find a race completely alien to us. I would find it hilarious if every alien race looks and acts exactly like us except for the obvious different culture so slightly different beliefs.
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Even then it's possible to encounter some that don't have a religous belief system. It's impossible to predict what we'll find out there.
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Finding all aliens have the religion that they are made in "God's image" and believe in a monotheistic god whose son died to atone for people's sins would certainly put numerous scholars through a few loops. The most obvious explanation would be some advanced alien race decided to mess with lesser race's beliefs. That was used in Babylon 5 with the Vorlons.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Yeah like the ol' Star Trek aliens.
Even then it's possible to encounter some that don't have a religous belief system. It's impossible to predict what we'll find out there. |
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
Just watched it and I have to say the creatures seem like vicious dolphins. There is this theory that dolphins and other mammals are just as intelligent as humans or even more intelligent, but because they aren't given a way to manipulate the environment, then they are stuck at where they are. Therefore, the creatures can't create fire, but know what it is from forest fires and know that fire doesn't normally appear in caves. If you take a gun and mines to a forest that no humans have ever stepped in, then the animals would have no clue that their life is in danger. Guns are beyond the understanding of the creatures so guns are not a sign of intelligence.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
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Dumb luck? The others were scared away by the C4 explosion? They were busy looking for the Lucian Alliance dude because he managed to 'lose them'? A flaw in the writing?
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Perfectly fine with that. Why then did the other creatures stop attacking once the creature in the cave decided the humans were intelligent?
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I'm trying to figure out how they're still exploring the ship after gaining full control of the bridge and computer system. Eli should not have to open a door with no clue of what's on the other side; he should be carrying a printout of the ship's blueprints with a nice label for "Stasis Chamber Room". Or whatever the Ancients used as an output device.
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Originally Posted by TerraDraconis
I actually would have preferred the episode being just exploring the ship over the hunt outside of it.
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Originally Posted by Rock_Crag
Dumb luck? The others were scared away by the C4 explosion? They were busy looking for the Lucian Alliance dude because he managed to 'lose them'? A flaw in the writing?
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You realize that any of those would also be assumptions? Except for the writing.
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That's one of those common sense things we're supposed to overlook.
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Originally Posted by ThugOne
I'm trying to figure out how they're still exploring the ship after gaining full control of the bridge and computer system. Eli should not have to open a door with no clue of what's on the other side; he should be carrying a printout of the ship's blueprints with a nice label for "Stasis Chamber Room". Or whatever the Ancients used as an output device.
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Going by my vicious dolphin example to explain the creatures. The creature could have just did a few snarls to say don't attack the humans. Humans aren't the only creature on this planet with a complex language. All pack animals have to have a language of some type in order to work together.
The first step in being sane is to admit that you are insane.
So this week we got to see how Rush dealt with Eli's rebellious feelings. I have to admit I liked how he sneakily asserted his authority without them figuring it out.
As to the rest I thought it was going well until the end. I found the whole idea that the creature recognizes fire and lets them go to be pretty lame.