I'm not surprised. I've always thought Illusion/ was extremely weak in AoE control compared to other sets. Outside of your secondary and with the exception of Flash, your only frequently available AoE control is soft control at best. Its a set that is highly dependent on PA to protect teammates and really only shines when it get close to perma PA levels IMO.
Considering all the other amazing things Ill/Rad and Ill/Cold can do and the popularity of those two combinations I wouldn't be surprised if the devs thought that encounter through thoroughly to offset an otherwise highly capable combination.
Hopefully your experience will change with more level shifts. It sucks when a players favorite character is made ineffective by new encounters.
Ill/rad rocks when fighting Siege and Nightstar though - Phantom Army isn't affected by the three-count hold. In one run, the team I was in didn't have a tanker or brute assigned, so I basically tanked Siege with PA non-stop (thank god for perma-PA, haha) while team 2 took out mobs and team 3 fought Nightstar. Phantasm is lousy on Siege though due to his wonky MUST-MELEE-EVEN-THOUGH-I-HAVE-NO-MELEE-ATTACKS AI, so try to save that for making him cast his Decoy. I think it was because I tanked, I earnt a Very Rare reward table roll, haha.
As for the mental patients, ugh, I struggle on that too. I use Flash/EM Pulse/Lingering Radiation on the minions to try to slow them down at least. I think Spectral Terror works - but if it's already out, it can only do single target fears, which may not help much if there's a bunch of them together, and if casting, by the time it appears, it might be too late as they've run further ahead. For the lieutenants, I try to at least attach toggles onto them so any damage dealers (or me, I guess, haha) can take them down faster.
PA won't hold their attention at all. I guess the brainwashed guys' urge to run to the exit overrules everything. PA can do damage though, especially to lieutenants (as long as they're not chasing). You might want to stay on the grass to the side of the pathways to avoid being confused (and having all your pets turn on you, haha).
Lore pets might be an option if the majority of players have them, but that might be wishful thinking. 
I've recently got both incarnate shifts on my ill/rad, so hoping it will make some difference. People new to the BAF will be either level 50 or 51, so the running lieutenants are +3 or +4, which makes a bit of level difference, especially since they can't be mezzed.
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Local Man.
I respect you. I like you. I find you to be a very intelligent, upstanding individual who's nothing but an asset to our community, these forums and the game overall. And i can definitely understand your frustration over all of this. So what I'm about to say... well, i feel really bad saying it, but it needs to be said.
"Tough break". Ill/Rad has been king of the hill for a long time. It's only natural that eventually, the devs would come up with something that takes advantage of the combo's weakspots. Heck, the entire trial is biased against controllers. About the only thing that works reliably is KB and slows.
I'm pretty sure the devs mentioned something about designing some of the new content around the most popular powers (as in, making those powers less effective), and making less-used powers more useful. Heck, i worked REPEL into my mind/kin build, for crying out loud!
I'd say for you, Lingering Radiation is your best bet for asserting your usefulness during the escape phase. Target an LT and slow him (and everyone around him) down. Slows and KB are pretty much the only good tools Controllers have. Most of the Epic pools have at least one good power for this phase: Ice Storm, Energy Torrent, Psi Tornado, Fissure, Water Spout and Disruptor blast are all AoEs/cones with either slow or KB. I'd rank PsiNado and Ice Storm as the most useful, but i might be wrong.
I think this is most of the reason the Devs gave us a third build for getting our Alpha slot, because they knew a lot of characters would be up s*** creek without a paddle using their normal builds. If you haven't already, take advantage of this third build slot and try to get as much KB and Slow into your build as possible.
I should note that Lamda is more forgiving, so making a third build just for one encounter might be a bit much. We'll see what else the devs have in store...
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
I am starting to see about the third build option as well. My Storm/Dark faceplanted more times then I can count on the new trials and while I may not have much in the way of damage, I make up for by debuffs but they seem to be lacking as well. I had tornado up almost all the time and they seemed to be ignoring the fact which got me thinking about my Ill/TA.
He will be 50 soon and starting on his alpha but I am wondering how TA will fair in them. I think one of the reasons why I went with TA, besides the fact that he is an insane ex-ringmaster is that I have several control options available. I wonder if it would help mitigate a bit more even though it doesn't have the -regen that Rad has. Have you tried your Ill/TA yet on the trials and compared your runs?
And you didn't mention anything about Decieve? How did that fair?
I'd move the Ill/Rad into the LT killing position; it still packs a lot of damage and is perfectly capable of killing the uncontrollable LT's reasonably quickly. Take the blaster/scrapper role in that portion of the trial instead of the controller role and I think you'll have a different outcome.
I find CMA to be quite effective in that role despite the lack of AOE damage. Pretend you're playing Shiver Shot instead of Area Man and just kill the mobs, don't worry about control.
For the rest of the trial Ill/Rad should be just as effective as normal.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
Given all the strengths that Ill/Rads have elsewhere in the game any weaknesses is possibly a balance welcome.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Given all the strengths that Ill/Rads have elsewhere in the game any weaknesses is possibly a balance welcome.
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I kind of feel the same way.
Lots and lots of my characters are bad at some aspect of various things. I don't see why Illusion should be better than everything at everything. I like you Local Man, but I see this as a "game better balanced" issue.
In any case, Illusion Control isn't useless for the rest of the trial. I actually think the army may be immune to sequestration, in which case, it may outperform actual Tankers (yet again).
And I think pretty much every set has frustrations of various kinds during this leg. My Mind Controller has major issues with this part, and doesn't get game breaking pets to balance it out. Ditto every other character I've tried it on. The best performer during this stage I've found is my Ice/Fire/Fire dom, purely because of slows, immob, and the actual ability to kill the leuitenants (which my Ice/Rad has to just let run by). But the Dominator eats grass constantly during the AV phases of the trial and brings no support.
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With PA and Spectral Terror, Ill/Rad does fine for most AoE control in most content. While I fully agree that Illusion makes heavy use of Phantom Army, I strongly disagree that it "only shines when it get(s) close to perma PA levels." My Ill/Rad did great leveling up and on SOs long before IOs were around. PA's distraction/aggro and Spectral Terror's fear are effective AoE control. Add in Flash, Ling Rad and EM Pulse for more AoE and Blind and Deceive to take care of the individuals. (People seem to forget that there was a game before IOs . . . and Illusion Controllers were very effective long before Perma-PA)|
Originally Posted by Saltyhero13
I'm not surprised. I've always thought Illusion/ was extremely weak in AoE control compared to other sets. Outside of your secondary and with the exception of Flash, your only frequently available AoE control is soft control at best. Its a set that is highly dependent on PA to protect teammates and really only shines when it get close to perma PA levels IMO.
Considering all the other amazing things Ill/Rad and Ill/Cold can do and the popularity of those two combinations I wouldn't be surprised if the devs thought that encounter through thoroughly to offset an otherwise highly capable combination. Hopefully your experience will change with more level shifts. It sucks when a players favorite character is made ineffective by new encounters. |
I don't have a problem with the Devs making challenging content so that softcapped Tanks and Scrappers and Brutes can be wiped out on occasion. But other controllers can use AoE Immobs, Stuns, Holds, Sleeps, Knockdowns and even Intangibility on the minions. It just seems a little bit unfair to invalidate BOTH of Illusion's primary forms of control, Distraction (through drawing aggro) and Fear. OK, I understand the mechanic of making them ignore taunt/aggro, but shouldn't fear still have some effect, even if it is not perma? When other controllers are able to use their AoE controls, my Illusionists are limited to using single target attacks.
And Deceive seems to affect them, but it doesn't stop them from running, so it is useless, too. So my only control powers that work are Blind, Flash and EM Pulse . . . and Ling Rad -- the slows help some. All three of those AoE control powers are on a long timer, making them useful once every 30 or more seconds. Other controllers can Immob or Sleep the minions in every group. Level shifts won't change the fact that my only effective control power not on a long timer is Blind. How would you Fire controllers out there feel if your only effective control power was Char? Or Fossilize for Earth?
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I'd move the Ill/Rad into the LT killing position; it still packs a lot of damage and is perfectly capable of killing the uncontrollable LT's reasonably quickly. Take the blaster/scrapper role in that portion of the trial instead of the controller role and I think you'll have a different outcome.
I find CMA to be quite effective in that role despite the lack of AOE damage. Pretend you're playing Shiver Shot instead of Area Man and just kill the mobs, don't worry about control. For the rest of the trial Ill/Rad should be just as effective as normal. |
That's exactly what I was doing . . . But even with my attack chain, I don't get the benefit of Containment on the Lieuts or Bosses, so I'm a pretty weak blaster -- it takes a lot of attacks to take down even a Lieut without Containment. The overall point I was trying to make is that Spectral Terror should have SOME effect at being able to stop some or all of the minions for a period of time. My only way to get Containment damage is to spend my time taking down Minions one-by-one.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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I understand that many feel that Illusion has an overly-strong advantage in some situations . . . it also has weaknesses in the lack of other AoE options, lack of hard control, lack of AoE damage. The problem I have is when an encounter is desiged to make Illusion the ONLY controller who is made invalid as a controller by this encounter. It turns me into a very, very weak blaster . . . with a weak blaster buddy.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Local Man.
I respect you. I like you. I find you to be a very intelligent, upstanding individual who's nothing but an asset to our community, these forums and the game overall. And i can definitely understand your frustration over all of this. So what I'm about to say... well, i feel really bad saying it, but it needs to be said. "Tough break". Ill/Rad has been king of the hill for a long time. It's only natural that eventually, the devs would come up with something that takes advantage of the combo's weakspots. Heck, the entire trial is biased against controllers. About the only thing that works reliably is KB and slows. I'm pretty sure the devs mentioned something about designing some of the new content around the most popular powers (as in, making those powers less effective), and making less-used powers more useful. Heck, i worked REPEL into my mind/kin build, for crying out loud! I'd say for you, Lingering Radiation is your best bet for asserting your usefulness during the escape phase. Target an LT and slow him (and everyone around him) down. Slows and KB are pretty much the only good tools Controllers have. Most of the Epic pools have at least one good power for this phase: Ice Storm, Energy Torrent, Psi Tornado, Fissure, Water Spout and Disruptor blast are all AoEs/cones with either slow or KB. I'd rank PsiNado and Ice Storm as the most useful, but i might be wrong. I think this is most of the reason the Devs gave us a third build for getting our Alpha slot, because they knew a lot of characters would be up s*** creek without a paddle using their normal builds. If you haven't already, take advantage of this third build slot and try to get as much KB and Slow into your build as possible. I should note that Lamda is more forgiving, so making a third build just for one encounter might be a bit much. We'll see what else the devs have in store... |
(And by the way . . . I LIKE Repel. I actually have it on my Kin/Elec Def and my Plant/Kin Controller -- it has effectively saved my tail several times, long before these Trials.)
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Ill/Rads are strong against single targets . . . but not strong against large groups. Ill/Rad relies upon Distraction and Fear rather than hard controls -- those work quite well, but I don't think it is accurate to ignore the fact that Illusion/Rad DOES in fact have weaknesses. Its not a farming character, like Fire or Plant can be. It is not a "only controller on a large team" like Earth, Ice or even Elec. Even Gravity is far more effective as a controller on this phase of the TF.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Given all the strengths that Ill/Rads have elsewhere in the game any weaknesses is possibly a balance welcome.
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LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Having played Tankers and with some great Tankers, I can tell you that a well-built, well-played Tank will virtually ALWAYS outperform PA except in taking a big Alpha Strike. Certainly there are some nice advantages to having three invulnerable pets who draw aggro.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I kind of feel the same way.
Lots and lots of my characters are bad at some aspect of various things. I don't see why Illusion should be better than everything at everything. I like you Local Man, but I see this as a "game better balanced" issue. In any case, Illusion Control isn't useless for the rest of the trial. I actually think the army may be immune to sequestration, in which case, it may outperform actual Tankers (yet again). And I think pretty much every set has frustrations of various kinds during this leg. My Mind Controller has major issues with this part, and doesn't get game breaking pets to balance it out. Ditto every other character I've tried it on. The best performer during this stage I've found is my Ice/Fire/Fire dom, purely because of slows, immob, and the actual ability to kill the leuitenants (which my Ice/Rad has to just let run by). But the Dominator eats grass constantly during the AV phases of the trial and brings no support. |
Mind Control at least has Mez and Lev (in addition to Dom) for single targets, and Mass Hypnosis which recharges quickly for AoE control, and Total Dom with the same long recharge as Flash (but ranged and not PB AoE). Similarly to Spectral Terror, Terrorize is useless as a control, but it also does AoE damage. Illusion ends up with Blind for control and Spectral Wound for damage, and that's about it.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
1. Team up with a player that can bunch up the minions, like any with a patch or group immob and let the PA and Phantasm kill the bunch.
2. Use the Rad to weaken the Commandos. +4 Lieutenants are a hard target for many ATs. You get to soften them up.
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You are entitled to your opinion right, wrong or indifferent. If you are going to quote please reread and understand my comments as I was discussing Illusion/ in general (as in stand alone). Also note not every pairing offers the same level of control you experience as Ill/Rad.
On second thought I'll reemphasize my point from my original post since it was taken out of context: Without PA and the exception of the AoE Hold (which all Controller Primaries offer) Illusion/ only AoE control comes from its AoE Fear. This is the only control with any kind of high availability and as we all know that is soft control at best.
I would go as far as to say that without PA as a crutch Illusion/ would drop down in popularity drastically as a Controller Primary. This illustrates the real design problem here.
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You are mistaken. Before IOs and ED Illusion/ could summon three sets of PA that would spawn 1-4 members in each. (It could summon three Phantasms as well; all controllers with pets could summon three instances of pets). PA was a crutch then as it is now, probably even more so. |
Originally Posted by Local_Man
(People seem to forget that there was a game before IOs . . . and Illusion Controllers were very effective long before Perma-PA)
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Post Issue 6 ,notably ED nerf and animation changes (incidentally I discovered this is when PA went from practically no cast time to 3.3 seconds cast time), we went three issues without IOs. During this time most players paired Illusion/ with /Rad and /Kin (mainly for the recharge buffs those secondaries offered) in order to attain the former glory Illusion/ once offered by attaining as close to permaPA as possible.
IOs came out in Issue 9 and /Rad offered the path of least resistance to attaining perma PA once again. My point with all this is that there was a small window of ~1.5 years (relative to the 7 year history of this game) where Illusion/ could not perma PA.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
How would you Fire controllers out there feel if your only effective control power was Char? Or Fossilize for Earth?
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Call Me Awesome made a great suggestion recommending a change in roles. The genius in his suggestion is that its a "no brainer" considering the fact Illusion/ makes a better Tanker/Scrapper than it does a Controller IMO.
I leave you with this thought "Improvise, Adapt and Overcome"
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You are still better off than most Defenders. I understand why it could be frustrating that your favorite set doesn't perform well in some situations, but IMO it's about time there was some reason to actually have more than the shaky baseline control Illusion brings.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I understand that many feel that Illusion has an overly-strong advantage in some situations . . . it also has weaknesses in the lack of other AoE options, lack of hard control, lack of AoE damage. The problem I have is when an encounter is desiged to make Illusion the ONLY controller who is made invalid as a controller by this encounter
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Anyway, I still respect your opinion. I just disagree with you on this specific point. And I think this reillustrates something we have to keep in mind all the time: characters are only powerful in the context of a challenge the game throws at them.
In any case, Illusion is still very useful and you would be mad to pass it over on the raids. If you want to hear about being severely limited, I could tell a story about a certain PBAoE set with high endurance usage and low damage that relies on soft control and is now facing enemies with Drain Psyche in a situation where the goal is to blow up a target as quickly as possible or die. Ouch...
I never get the whole "the devs are targeting certain sets" mentality that people seem to have. If they run through fear powers, it hurts Mind controllers as well.
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Mind control has never been seen as overpowered by anybody. And if so, it certainly isn't represented in the character population. Heck, just look around the forums. MOST threads are going to be about Fire, Illu (usually coupled with rad), and Plant. Go in-game and tell me how many mind controllers you run into compared to other controllers.|
Originally Posted by Amy_Amp
I never get the whole "the devs are targeting certain sets" mentality that people seem to have. If they run through fear powers, it hurts Mind controllers as well.
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Anyway, the no-fear effect hurts illu MORE because fear is only one tool in mind's AoE arsenal (mass hyp, total dom, TK, and Mass Confusion -though that's useless here, too). Fear is Illu's ONLY AoE option outside of a Hold. Also, Minds fear does damage, so it's good for at least that.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
Mind control has never been seen as overpowered by anybody. And if so, it certainly isn't represented in the character population. Heck, just look around the forums. MOST threads are going to be about Fire, Illu (usually coupled with rad), and Plant. Go in-game and tell me how many mind controllers you run into compared to other controllers.
Anyway, the no-fear effect hurts illu MORE because fear is only one tool in mind's AoE arsenal (mass hyp, total dom, TK, and Mass Confusion -though that's useless here, too). Fear is Illu's ONLY AoE option outside of a Hold. Also, Minds fear does damage, so it's good for at least that. |
Well, Illusion Control is no different than any other set: it's not immune to the downsides of its downsides. Having only one kind of mezz is a gamble. Sometimes it plays out and sometimes it doesn't. I think this is well established and accepted with other sets.
PS: Its worth noting that on the beta boards, players of nearly every AT made comments about the missions "uniquely" targetting their build. I suppose any of that is possible. What IS clear is the devs are leading us away from a game dominated by steam rolling and tank-and-spank tactics in favor of an environment where many more responibilities are tested. Several sets that previously offered "redundant" support, control, and survivability suddenly seem more attractive. I know I'm kicking myself for having skipped resurection powers on a few toons, and wondering privately how I'm going to design builds to contend with the sudden increase in demand for true, hard core support. It should also be noted that all-boss spawns and "trickles" rather than ambushes mean almost ALL of the standard Controller AoE powers are much more difficult to employ, not just the stuff in Illusion Control, and not just during 1 5 minute portion of 1 raid.
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First and foremost . . . . I didn't post this because I didn't know how to contribute . . . I figured that out pretty quickly. I have generally been pretty good figuring out how to adapt my many controllers and my playstyle to most situations.|
Originally Posted by Saltyhero13
You are entitled to your opinion right, wrong or indifferent. If you are going to quote please reread and understand my comments as I was discussing Illusion/ in general (as in stand alone). Also note not every pairing offers the same level of control you experience as Ill/Rad.
On second thought I'll reemphasize my point from my original post since it was taken out of context: Without PA and the exception of the AoE Hold (which all Controller Primaries offer) Illusion/ only AoE control comes from its AoE Fear. This is the only control with any kind of high availability and as we all know that is soft control at best. I would go as far as to say that without PA as a crutch Illusion/ would drop down in popularity drastically as a Controller Primary. This illustrates the real design problem here. You are mistaken. Before IOs and ED Illusion/ could summon three sets of PA that would spawn 1-4 members in each. (It could summon three Phantasms as well; all controllers with pets could summon three instances of pets). PA was a crutch then as it is now, probably even more so. Post Issue 6 ,notably ED nerf and animation changes (incidentally I discovered this is when PA went from practically no cast time to 3.3 seconds cast time), we went three issues without IOs. During this time most players paired Illusion/ with /Rad and /Kin (mainly for the recharge buffs those secondaries offered) in order to attain the former glory Illusion/ once offered by attaining as close to permaPA as possible. IOs came out in Issue 9 and /Rad offered the path of least resistance to attaining perma PA once again. My point with all this is that there was a small window of ~1.5 years (relative to the 7 year history of this game) where Illusion/ could not perma PA. Mobs resistant to mezz effects already existed in the game prior to these trials. So what? All sets have some sort of limitation and scenarios that they don't excel. Boohoo. Ill/Rad can't be Jack of all Trades/Master of All. If it was intentional I applaud the devs for doing something about this. As a seven year veteran of this game I welcome more challenges like this that take players out of their comfort zones and force them to shift tactics. Call Me Awesome made a great suggestion recommending a change in roles. The genius in his suggestion is that its a "no brainer" considering the fact Illusion/ makes a better Tanker/Scrapper than it does a Controller IMO. I leave you with this thought "Improvise, Adapt and Overcome" |
And, by the way, I have Ill/Rad, Ill/Storm, Ill/TA and Ill/Cold all at 50 . . . with an Ill/Kin not quite there yet. Every one of them has been able to be "highly effective" before getting "perma-PA." In fact, the only one who has it currently is my Ill/Rad. (I wrote my original version of my Ill/Rad guide long before I ever got "perma-PA.") Your comments suggest that without Perma-PA, Illusion is a weak set. You describe PA as a "crutch" and Spectral Terror as the only form of AoE control that Illusion gets other than the AoE Hold, and you describe Spooky as "soft control at best" . . .
Well, I see PA as primarily a form of control. It is a very effective form of control through distraction. Like a hold or a stun, PA keep foes from attacking the team and make it easier for the team to take down the foes. By drawing aggro, Phantom Army acts as AoE control, effectively keeping the foes distracted for 60 seconds -- that's why Illusion is a control set. PA is not a "crutch" no more than Flashfire or Earthquake are "crutches." It is another form of AoE control. It just happens to be a very, very effective one, able to distract bosses and AVs as well as minions. But Illusion trades some of the AoE goodies in other sets for that effective control.
The distinction of "soft" and "hard" is pretty ambiguous. Different folks have different opinions on what types of controls should be considered "hard." Immobs and Sleeps set up Containment -- should they be considered "hard?" What about Confuses, which completely neuter foes but allow them to run around and does not establish Containment -- is that "hard" or "soft"? Spectral Terror is effective AoE control most of the time. I would rank it above most sleep powers, above Immobs . . . and kind of hard to rank compared to knockdown powers.
Even a non-Perma-PA Illusionist can provide effective control simply by alternating the forms of control available . . . PA followed by Spectral Terror will easily keep a group continually controlled . . . or even Spectral Terror alone. And Spooky is perma as soon as you get it (even without Hasten). That seems like pretty effective control to me.
Oh well, the point of this was not to debate the effectiveness of Illusion . . . your posts appear that you don't like it, and that's certainly your choice. I didn't need the history lesson, since I have been around since Issue 2. The point was simply a little bit of a complaint . . . this part of BAF trial has neutralized both powers that Illusion counts on for AoE control, in a part of the trial where AoE control is important. The trial excluded a normally very effective controller from using its normally effective control powers. The changes to the normal "status quo" hit Illusion harder than other control sets, as the other sets have other forms of AoE control that remain effective. Illusion therefore has to adapt to become a somewhat less effective Blaster instead of a Controller. I'm not used to Illusion being weakened in most of the game, so I thought it felt "unfair."
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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You make some decent points. Several of the newer TFs and missions make control overall less effective to add more challenge. That's fine and it requires controllers to adapt. There have been encounters in the game where various forms of control have been made less effective. Some foes are resistant to fear . . . OK, but they can be distracted by PA. Sometimes ambushes will ignore PA . . . but the foe can be controlled with fear and/or confuse. But in this case, all three forms of control -- distraction, fear and confuse are all ineffective. That doesn't affect any other controller like it does Illusion.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Well, Illusion Control is no different than any other set: it's not immune to the downsides of its downsides. Having only one kind of mezz is a gamble. Sometimes it plays out and sometimes it doesn't. I think this is well established and accepted with other sets.
PS: Its worth noting that on the beta boards, players of nearly every AT made comments about the missions "uniquely" targetting their build. I suppose any of that is possible. What IS clear is the devs are leading us away from a game dominated by steam rolling and tank-and-spank tactics in favor of an environment where many more responibilities are tested. Several sets that previously offered "redundant" support, control, and survivability suddenly seem more attractive. I know I'm kicking myself for having skipped resurection powers on a few toons, and wondering privately how I'm going to design builds to contend with the sudden increase in demand for true, hard core support. It should also be noted that all-boss spawns and "trickles" rather than ambushes mean almost ALL of the standard Controller AoE powers are much more difficult to employ, not just the stuff in Illusion Control, and not just during 1 5 minute portion of 1 raid. |
Would Plant controllers have something to say if an encounter made Immob and Confuse and Sleep ineffecive, and Creepers also did nothing?
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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These are high-powered psychic monsters, so it's not out of line for them to have high resistance to fears and holds, especially psychic holds. At least you've got something to slow them down; my Ill/Emp controller doesn't even have Lingering Radiation. My Mind/Kin controller only has Siphon Speed, making it only marginally more useful than my Ill/Emp.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Spectral Terror should have some effect. The minions should at least pause for a few seconds due to the fear effect.
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On the other hand, I've got an Earth/Storm controller, where there's finally a use for most of the powers in those sets. When I ran with that no prisoners escaped (my team mates had a lot to do with that, of course
).The devs made the prisoners to be challenging in a different way from the rest of the trial, not just to make you feel weak. They don't want characters to be able to do everything, because the whole point of these trials is to emphasize the importance of a well-coordinated team.
Having to defeat the two AVs within 10 seconds of each other is perhaps the most obvious case of the level of teamwork required, but it's not the only thing.
In the long run, your being able to make mincemeat out of AVs on a regular basis with your Ill/Rad is more of an advantage than being able to stop fleeing psychic prisoners who don't even fight back.
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Would Plant controllers have something to say if an encounter made Immob and Confuse and Sleep ineffecive, and Creepers also did nothing?
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No, because this exact scenario exists in AV fights and people just assume its part of the "tax" of playing the set.
I think once you try a few other characters in the raids you'll see the love went around to all of them. All boss spawns mean Arctic Air does nothing [edit: worth risking your life at close range for], fun fun.
And other such things.
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There are plenty of mobs that are resistant to slows and immoblizes (like those damned wolves, and those junkheap creatures in Sharkhead, and most anything with a huge body type, it seems). Most robots aren't affected by sleep. Nemesis aren't affected by confuse, as I recall.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
Would Plant controllers have something to say if an encounter made Immob and Confuse and Sleep ineffecive, and Creepers also did nothing?
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Over the entire life of a character, you're going to be dealing with those mobs much more often than these escaping prisoners (or at least I hope so...).
One thing to add that is maybe a bit more helpful. Remember that when you first start doing the trials, you are playing your character as he or she "was." You have yet to experience what he or she "will be" after you build up some of the new powers.
Surprisingly, the power that was a total game changer for me during this leg was Lore. It lasts 5 minutes--the exact duration of this segment--and the Tier 3 version summons 2 pets you can control like Masterminds do. I picked up the Seers, and those girls knocked the cupcakes out anything that tried to run by. This was the second run where my team managed to complete this portion with no escapees--becoming more and more apossibility because of everyone going up levels and gaining new powers.
I have found myself frustrated with my Ill/Rad in both of the new Incarnate trials, but especially in one phase of the BAF trial -- escaping mental patients.
This section appears to have been set up for Controllers to handle the minions while the other guys take care of the lieutenants and bosses. The controllers (and Dominators) can only control the minions to prevent their escape. However, Spectral Terror is worthless -- even the minions run right through and past it. They show the fear animation, but otherwise ignore it. PA doesn't seem to hold their attention, either -- They just run past the ghosty guys.
Since Illusion is substanially lacking in other AoE control, I find this part of the trial to be extremely frustrating on my Ill/Rad (and Ill/Cold, but he at least has Sleet and Snow Storm). The Ill/Rad only has Flash and EM Pulse on long timers for AoE control. In effect, I am mostly limited to chasing down single foes to attack with my Blind-SW-Blast-SW chain. Phanty helps a fair amount by blasting and knocking back foes. But I feel that due to the design of this part of the trial, several of my key powers have been (unfairly) neutralized.
Spectral Terror should have some effect. The minions should at least pause for a few seconds due to the fear effect.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control