Remove Artillery from Lambda final stage
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-04-05 16:49 in Suggestions and Ideas
Personally I recommend taking them out during the first stage of the trial (before the timers start).
The artillery barrage in the final stage does barely any damage - simply pop your henches on Passive so they don't then go attack Marauder and you'll be fine.
If you're talking about the turrets around the Lambda Sector compound, then these can be defeated in the earlier stages so they're no issue in the final.
No, not talking about the EB turrets. We gutted them easily.
And MZ, that simply doesn't work. 'Barely any damage' is enough to insta-kill the Tier 1 pets, nearly kill the Tier 2 pets and halve the Tier 3. That is NOT a small problem, especially given how easy it is for the hundred and one bosses around to insta-kill your entire arsenal.
MMs are getting heavily penalised for even existing in these trials. They do NOT need another thing that is far more destructive for them than any other AT, bar none.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Ah, I misunderstood, sorry.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
No, not talking about the EB turrets. We gutted them easily.
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The Artillery attack only hit me for around 34 damage (that's with no +Res and henchmen on Passive). Absolutely negligible. You must be thinking of (or experiencing) another attack.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And MZ, that simply doesn't work. 'Barely any damage' is enough to insta-kill the Tier 1 pets, nearly kill the Tier 2 pets and halve the Tier 3. That is NOT a small problem, especially given how easy it is for the hundred and one bosses around to insta-kill your entire arsenal.
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Note when I was hit, I was on the roof of the internal building, with no other aggro (so can only be the artillery attack).
I was on one of the building tops where the turrets were before.
And I'm not talking about with minions out. Trying to re-summon them mid-fight is nigh impossible, due to the artillery lovetap every 3-4 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I'm sorry that the Lambda artillery is giving your MM some trouble. That being said I don't think this game should always be "friendly" to every AT type in every situation.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I'm sorry, but the hell with this? Being an MM on this is bad enough as it is, what with AoE being flung around like its going outta fashion, but the Artillery?
'If you dare to lose pets, which you will, then good fragging luck setting them up again, because we're going to shell you from range and there is NOTHING you can do about it! Ahahahaha!' Yeah, but no. That's not challenging, thats just screwing over an AT that has it hella hard on these things already. Not cool. And NOT fun. |
For every AT type there's always going to be certain tactical situations where they excel at and others they have problems with. There's really no "rule" that says every character should be able to accomplish every task equally well. That's the whole point for encouraging mixed AT type teams and the main point behind our ability to play multiple alts. I'd rather have the different AT types actually be "different" from each other than to be able to have say a Controller be able to play the game exactly the same way a Tank does.
If the artillery bothers your MM so much either find a way to adapt or simply let your teammates handle that relatively small portion of the trial. Play to your strengths and avoid your weaknesses. MMs aren't really meant to jump from rooftop to rooftop like Batman anyway so why be that upset when you can't do that? Most players can't easily melee AVs with a Controller but would it be reasonable to ask the Devs to make AVs wimpy enough so that Controllers could routinely do that?
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Lothic I don't where to start, there is just so much fail and wrong in your post. It's like all the fail in the universe went to one place collapsed into a gravity warping wrong hole.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
Sucks for masterminds and all that extra bonus accuracy and +to hit most of this stuff has in these trials sucks too. Had alot of instances where when my team would return from the hospital on the baf and lamba that we would simply get melted upon returning to the fight. Playing a softcapped sr and popping purples and oranges before returning to the action, I couldn't tell that defense was even working when there was just 1 or 2 bosses in the area.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
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So it's wrong for different ATs to have different strengths and weaknesses when it comes to tactical situations?|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Lothic I don't where to start, there is just so much fail and wrong in your post. It's like all the fail in the universe went to one place collapsed into a gravity warping wrong hole.
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For some reason I'm incredibly sure the Devs would disagree with you.
[EDIT] Just as a case in point I ran the Lambda Trial 3 times last night and each time the league I was with managed to circle around and kill off all the artillery within 3-5 minutes. There were even a few MMs in the those leagues and I saw no one complaining. Forgive me if this really does seem like a non-issue.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
So it's wrong for different ATs to have different strengths and weaknesses when it comes to tactical situations?
For some reason I'm incredibly sure the Devs would disagree with you. [EDIT] Just as a case in point I ran the Lambda Trial 3 times last night and each time the league I was with managed to circle around and kill off all the artillery within 3-5 minutes. There were even a few MMs in the those leagues and I saw no one complaining. Forgive me if this really does seem like a non-issue. |
Wrong artillery mate.
Not the turrets, when you are fighting Marauder if you aren't in melee range you can barraged by an artillery themed AoE. It doesn't have an origin mob, it's just part of the encounter.
Different tactics sure, but asking one AT to effectively 'sit out' of the final challenge of the trial, isn't good game design in the slightest. Especially for a game that has always been about 'bringing the player' and not bringing the class.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Regardless of which "artillery" we're talking about I hardly think the trial is too hard for anyone. I ran the 3 Lambdas last night with a Controller and I only died 3 or 4 times during each run. Most of those deaths were during the phase in the building BEFORE the fight with Marauder. *shrugs*|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
Wrong artillery mate.
Not the turrets, when you are fighting Marauder if you aren't in melee range you can barraged by an artillery themed AoE. It doesn't have an origin mob, it's just part of the encounter. Different tactics sure, but asking one AT to effectively 'sit out' of the final challenge of the trial, isn't good game design in the slightest. Especially for a game that has always been about 'bringing the player' and not bringing the class. |
People always come out of the woodwork and whine about the newest content in this game with every new Issue release. For the first few days, before most people adapt, there are people who claim "such-n-such" is too hard and it needs to be nerfed. Remember Apex? Give it a week or two and those voices usually die away.
Beside you're probably not even taking into account that this trial was designed with Incarnate Shifts in mind. In a few weeks when many people are +3 level shifted AND have experience with running this trial it's going to be a completely different experience.
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After experiencing my first Lambda this morning I'll be sticking to the BAF for the foreseable future. When folks get their stuff together I'll revisit it then. No time for frustration.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Regardless of which "artillery" we're talking about I hardly think the trial is too hard for anyone. I ran the 3 Lambdas last night with a Controller and I only died 3 or 4 times during each run. Most of those deaths were during the phase in the building BEFORE the fight with Marauder. *shrugs*
People always come out of the woodwork and whine about the newest content in this game with every new Issue release. For the first few days, before most people adapt, there are people who claim "such-n-such" is too hard and it needs to be nerfed. Remember Apex? Give it a week or two and those voices usually die away. Beside you're probably not even taking into account that this trial was designed with Incarnate Shifts in mind. In a few weeks when many people are +3 level shifted AND have experience with running this trial it's going to be a completely different experience. |
/shrug
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Different Strengths and Weaknesses=!One AT getting penalised above all others by an auto-hit that makes it hard for the main selling point of the AT.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
So it's wrong for different ATs to have different strengths and weaknesses when it comes to tactical situations?
For some reason I'm incredibly sure the Devs would disagree with you. |
It's like telling Scrappers and Stalkers that Crits get turned off every 3 seconds, or telling Brutes that their Fury will be reset to 0 every 5 secs.
Thats how it feels being a Bot/Traps MM in the final stage.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I understand that's how you "feel" about it. There are parts of this game I don't like either.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Different Strengths and Weaknesses=!One AT getting penalised above all others by an auto-hit that makes it hard for the main selling point of the AT.
It's like telling Scrappers and Stalkers that Crits get turned off every 3 seconds, or telling Brutes that their Fury will be reset to 0 every 5 secs. Thats how it feels being a Bot/Traps MM in the final stage. |
I just think asking the Devs to make adjustments to things based on the narrow point of view of the play experience of one AT during one set encounter is not a very viable suggestion. Somehow you'd have to make the case that every encounter in every trial/TF/SF should be made to be "friendly" to every AT, and I simply don't think you've made that case. Again I'll point out that I might like to stand toe-to-toe in melee against AVs using my Controllers but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon either because there's no obvious justification for it.
Put your energy into figuring out how you can adapt to the new challenge the Devs have provided.
The chance the Devs are going to change this aspect of the trial to make it more "AT friendly" is just about nil.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I understand that's how you "feel" about it. There are parts of this game I don't like either.
I just think asking the Devs to make adjustments to things based on the narrow point of view of the play experience of one AT during one set encounter is not a very viable suggestion. Somehow you'd have to make the case that every encounter in every trial/TF/SF should be made to be "friendly" to every AT, and I simply don't think you've made that case. Again I'll point out that I might like to stand toe-to-toe in melee against AVs using my Controllers but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon either because there's no obvious justification for it. Put your energy into figuring out how you can adapt to the new challenge the Devs have provided. The chance the Devs are going to change this aspect of the trial to make it more "AT friendly" is just about nil. |
They've managed it for bleeding years.
You can stand 'toe to toe' with an AV with your controller, hell you can even 'control' the AV.
The situation for masterminds would be the same for controllers, if say the next Incarnate trial, all the mobs were immune to all forms of crowd control. So a controller has their damage massively nerfed, and effectively they are dead weight on the team.
That is the problem facing with the Lambda and it's artillery.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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I guess I should tell my friends that their Dominators are doing it wrong, then.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
I understand that's how you "feel" about it. There are parts of this game I don't like either.
I just think asking the Devs to make adjustments to things based on the narrow point of view of the play experience of one AT during one set encounter is not a very viable suggestion. Somehow you'd have to make the case that every encounter in every trial/TF/SF should be made to be "friendly" to every AT, and I simply don't think you've made that case. Again I'll point out that I might like to stand toe-to-toe in melee against AVs using my Controllers but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon either because there's no obvious justification for it. Put your energy into figuring out how you can adapt to the new challenge the Devs have provided. The chance the Devs are going to change this aspect of the trial to make it more "AT friendly" is just about nil. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
They've managed it for bleeding years.
You can stand 'toe to toe' with an AV with your controller, hell you can even 'control' the AV. The situation for masterminds would be the same for controllers, if say the next Incarnate trial, all the mobs were immune to all forms of crowd control. So a controller has their damage massively nerfed, and effectively they are dead weight on the team. That is the problem facing with the Lambda and it's artillery. |
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I guess I should tell my friends that their Dominators are doing it wrong, then.
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Your gross exaggerations about just how awfully impossible it is for MMs to cope with this new Lambda Trial challenge is just about the equivalent of me wanting a Controller to be able to tackle an AV the same way a Tank or Brute could. Well guess what? The only way a Controller can take on an AV is the way a CONTROLLER can, not the way any other AT could.
Please get over this initial "OMG! IT'S TOOOO HARD" overreaction you're having and try to do what you've probably already done for years: learn, adapt and overcome. Frankly in a couple of weeks when everyone is sporting +3 Incarnate Shifts there'll probably be people out there complaining that the Lambda Trial is too easy.
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No. I'm upset that my pets, my entire primary, is killed of near instantaneously by spammed AoEs with higher than average acc and boss level damage. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Clearly you both missed my point about what saying about the Controller and the AV. You basically seem to be upset that MMs have a tactical weakness and want them to be able to handle things like other ATs can. Tough.
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And thats after being shelled constantly during setup.
I want to be able to handle things MY way, the MM way. And I'm basically being told, by the game itself, 'LolNo.'
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I feel your pain. Final stage of BAF every one of my toggles was utterly useless. Every single creature hit me with 95% chance, despite my supposed "softcap".
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Originally Posted by Noyjitat
Sucks for masterminds and all that extra bonus accuracy and +to hit most of this stuff has in these trials sucks too. Had alot of instances where when my team would return from the hospital on the baf and lamba that we would simply get melted upon returning to the fight. Playing a softcapped sr and popping purples and oranges before returning to the action, I couldn't tell that defense was even working when there was just 1 or 2 bosses in the area.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
No. I'm upset that my pets, my entire primary, is killed of near instantaneously by spammed AoEs with higher than average acc and boss level damage.
And thats after being shelled constantly during setup. I want to be able to handle things MY way, the MM way. And I'm basically being told, by the game itself, 'LolNo.' |
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Originally Posted by DarkPaladinLoki
I feel your pain. Final stage of BAF every one of my toggles was utterly useless. Every single creature hit me with 95% chance, despite my supposed "softcap".
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And I'll say it again just to make sure this point hits home: These new Incarnate trials are geared with the future of the game in mind. They are balanced for people who have slotted Incarnate Shifts. It's practically a given that without those shifts these trials are going to be fairly hard at first for EVERYONE, not just MMs.
All I'm suggesting is that you may be crying for a nerf to this trial far too early...
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And control powers being gutted during the BAF annoys the heck out of me.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Different Strengths and Weaknesses=!One AT getting penalised above all others by an auto-hit that makes it hard for the main selling point of the AT.
It's like telling Scrappers and Stalkers that Crits get turned off every 3 seconds, or telling Brutes that their Fury will be reset to 0 every 5 secs. Thats how it feels being a Bot/Traps MM in the final stage. |
As far as the Lambda, pay attention to the warnings. There is a clear warning before that attack (by the way that attack is from Marauder), so move your pets closer, then move them away when the other attack is announced.
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Originally Posted by Lothic
Most players can't easily melee AVs with a Controller but would it be reasonable to ask the Devs to make AVs wimpy enough so that Controllers could routinely do that?
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Primary is neutralized...
Mmmkay... may I ask, what is your secondary? Buffs? Debuffs? Offense? Mez? Can you make yourself valuable to the team by using your secondary in a support role??
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This is one of those poorly designed game mechanics where certain powersets get screwed over and don't feel fun to bring to the trials.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Learn, adapt and overcome. When the game gives you lemons you make lemonade.
And I'll say it again just to make sure this point hits home: These new Incarnate trials are geared with the future of the game in mind. They are balanced for people who have slotted Incarnate Shifts. It's practically a given that without those shifts these trials are going to be fairly hard at first for EVERYONE, not just MMs. All I'm suggesting is that you may be crying for a nerf to this trial far too early... |
Its ok in hamiraids because everyone can use EoEs to mitigate hamidon damage so the devs had more freedom with how dangerous they could make hamidon. But here it seems you need high +hitpoints and high resistances or you can expect to get melted. It seems to me they either need to add temp powers/inspirations that help you resist some of the crazy damage or take away the high accuracy and +to hit and give the mobs a power like aim that they occasionally turn on that doesn't have a quick recharge time. I'm thinking the aim power would be the best course as long as every mob doesn't use it the second you aggro them.
Friends don't let friends buy an ncsoft controlled project.
I'm sorry, but the hell with this? Being an MM on this is bad enough as it is, what with AoE being flung around like its going outta fashion, but the Artillery?
'If you dare to lose pets, which you will, then good fragging luck setting them up again, because we're going to shell you from range and there is NOTHING you can do about it! Ahahahaha!'
Yeah, but no. That's not challenging, thats just screwing over an AT that has it hella hard on these things already. Not cool. And NOT fun.