Watch the spawns and hold/otherwise distract whatever throws them at you first.
Most of the protection you'll find in sets will give resistance, not protection (the mez will last less time,) but it's such a small amount it's not worth building for. Besides, with inherent fitness, you already get a resist to sleep in Health.
You can take Acrobatics (Leaping pool) which provides a small amount of hold protection but that's about it.
On the plus side when I20 comes out one of the options for the Destiny slot is a status protection buff that at the higher tiers is permanent.
There is no equivalent to the -KB for sleep and hold.
Hot feet (I'm not a controller, but just looking casually at RedTomax) doesn't actually seem to have a true mez component- only fear, which lets them shoot back at least once. Choking Cloud is on a stupidly long pulse- 5 seconds or something- so you could be standing there with your pants in your hand for four seconds while they do what they like to you. (Of course if you have Rad Infection up, ideally with Maneuvers, they'll be doing a lot less to you.)
There are dozens of Fire/Kin experts, which I am not one of, but it sounds to me like you're looking for a build solution to a tactics problem.
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Mezz them before they mezz you. Flashfire the mob and any that aren't affected hit them with char ASAP. Then make sure you have containment set up (if it isn't already, i.e. fire cages) and that they are dead before they can become un-mezzed and try and mezz you.
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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The OP is referring to the fact that Choking Cloud and Hot Feet are aggro magnets, rather than mez mitigation.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
There is no equivalent to the -KB for sleep and hold.
Hot feet (I'm not a controller, but just looking casually at RedTomax) doesn't actually seem to have a true mez component- only fear, which lets them shoot back at least once. Choking Cloud is on a stupidly long pulse- 5 seconds or something- so you could be standing there with your pants in your hand for four seconds while they do what they like to you. (Of course if you have Rad Infection up, ideally with Maneuvers, they'll be doing a lot less to you.) There are dozens of Fire/Kin experts, which I am not one of, but it sounds to me like you're looking for a build solution to a tactics problem. |
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Agreed. When I'm running against heavy mezzing mobs, I'm constantly creating break frees from other inspies that drop, but my first line of defense is to hold them before they hold you.
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Originally Posted by MentalMaden
Mezz them before they mezz you. Flashfire the mob and any that aren't affected hit them with char ASAP. Then make sure you have containment set up (if it isn't already, i.e. fire cages) and that they are dead before they can become un-mezzed and try and mezz you.
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This is the perfect summary to the OP's question of "mez defense for controllers". The answer is not really trying to find solutions in things like Indomitable Will or Breakfrees. The key is in what people like MentalMaiden said - Mezz them before they mezz you. Controllers don't "defend" themselves by loading up on resistance or defense IOs. They defend themselves by making sure no one else hurts/mezzs them first.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
it sounds to me like you're looking for a build solution to a tactics problem.
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I've been running my Fire/Rad with Hot Feet for years and I barely notice ever getting mezzed and I barely ever use Breakfrees either. It's all based on my not running my controller like a Scrapper or a Brute - it's a matter of mindset and tactics. Now obviously I do get mezzed occasionally, but it happens so rarely that it's practically a "blue moon" occurrence now.
Good luck to the OP in figuring it out.
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The OP basically would be happier with a dominator I think.
Build for ranged def.
You'll need to get Hasten along with some +recharge set bonuses to tighten the gap between Indomitable Wills.
But still, you're a Fire Controller, so lead with Flash Fire. With Hasten, you can have it ready for almost every group (based on my non-optimized build). You also have Cinders which you can alternate in in case you're going a little fast for Flash Fire. And for back up, you also have EMP Pulse. Three powers to almost totally disable every enemy around you (pay extra attention to the bosses): Flash Fire before you approach, and Cinders or EMP Pulse after you jump in. Even if you miss someone and they mez you, your Imps should be able to cover you until you wake up.
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
You can make Indom Will Perma have it so on my Fire/Kin. Also try rolling a scrapper/tank/brute/stalker or a FF or Sonic defender, troller, MM, Corr. (the big bubble of protection grants mez prot but sleep).
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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Slotting for Mez resistance helps. It doesn't prevent holds, but the less time held or slept the better. I always slot the Aegis Unique in Epic Armor, and an Impervious Skin +7.5% mez resist if I can.|
Originally Posted by OutaControl
how can I build up protection against sleep and hold for say a fire/kin or fire/rad controller?
I've tried the psionic mastery "Indomitable will" which gives a non buffable amount of (stun/sleep/hold/confuse/terror) protection 1:30 and with max recharge that leaves you unprotected for 1:30 assuming you have auto-cast on. imo this is so-so at best and a 1/4 second sleep is just as bad as a 10 sec sleep because your toggles are still down. I can run a TF with say my ill/kin and never sleep once through the a whole TF but once I bring a character with either "hot feet" and/or "choking cloud" they sleep on the job all the time or are being held. Please don't tell me to bring "break frees", I can use 20 on a single TF mission and you can't keep running back for more while on a TF. ( for AE mission I can see doing that ). Is there an equivalent tot he Karma knockback protection but for sleep and hold? |
Also, just getting your Defense up helps immensely. They have to hit you to Mez you.
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--The Question, JLU
So to summarize:
1) Actual mez protection, from...
a) Perma Indomitable Will through very high recharge (this is quite nice ^_^). Use any combination of hasten, siphon speed, AM, IOs, set bonuses, Spiritual Alpha, and Ageless Destiny (new in Issue 20) to make this happen and it will help all your other controls and buffs/debuffs too. Watch out for enemies with recharge debuffs, either mez them or have enough recharge and recharge debuff resistance (from Ageless Destiny) to counteract them.
b) the new issue 20 Destiny slot has a "Clarion" option which lasts 120 seconds and recharges in 120 seconds once upgraded to Partial Core Invocation (third tier) or Core Epiphany (fourth tier). Due to the way this works, the protection is much lower than Indomitable Will's for part of the time, and there may be a gap where your attack toggles will drop if Clarion wears off while you have a mez effect on you. You'd have to retoggle hot feet after you hit the (now recharged) Clarion power - though it does act as a breakfree.
c) Acrobatics (minor hold protection only). Personally I didn't find this to be worth the power choice and endurance, since stuns and sleeps and double-stacked holds broke through it.
2) Mez them before they mez you. Learn which enemies have mezzes and control them first. Bosses, EBs, and AVs can still give you trouble though, or large groups where your 5% or higher chance to miss will often allow minion or lieutenant mezzers to take shots at you.
3) High defense against whatever mezzing enemies you tend to face. This is often ranged or AoE defense, but if you're in melee range of some enemies (Tsoo, Freaks, etc) then melee defense or smashing defense may be needed too. Unfortunately this is not always effective against Psi-type mezzes since they may bypass your ranged/AoE defense, such as Carnies and Council Vampyri. Indomitable Will has Psi Defense built-in though, so see #1a!
4) Mez resistance from special IOs and AM, to reduce the duration of mezzes. Not effective by itself, but it does make low levels of mez protection (such as Clarion as it degrades) feel stronger by reducing the chance that mezzes will stack on you and overcome your protection.
5) a couple of Breakfrees, for when the above fails.
From my experience, this is roughly in order of effectiveness for what you're asking to do. I currently use 1a, 2, 3, 4 and 5 together on a fire/kin and ill/rad, and to a lesser extent on a plant/storm. It's not cheap or simple, but it works and I never buy breakfrees.
You also have the option to try a dominator...with enough recharge to have perma domination, you'll get a similar (better?) un-mezzable controllery experience from the primary powerset, but of course the secondary powerset choices are very different.
Good luck.
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This is a really good summary of options, but I'd like to add a few more.|
Originally Posted by PirateCrew
So to summarize:
1) Actual mez protection, from... a) Perma Indomitable Will through very high recharge (this is quite nice ^_^). Use any combination of IOs, set bonuses, Spiritual Alpha, and Ageless Destiny (new in Issue 20) to make this happen and it will help all your other controls and buffs/debuffs too. Watch out for enemies with recharge debuffs, either mez them or have enough recharge and recharge debuff resistance (from Ageless Destiny) to counteract them. b) the new issue 20 Destiny slot has a "Clarion" option which lasts 120 seconds and recharges in 120 seconds once upgraded to Partial Core Invocation (third tier) or Core Epiphany (fourth tier). Due to the way this works, the protection is much lower than Indomitable Will's for part of the time, and there may be a gap where your attack toggles will drop if Clarion wears off while you have a mez effect on you. You'd have to retoggle hot feet after you hit the (now recharged) Clarion power - though it does act as a breakfree. c) Acrobatics (minor hold protection only). Personally I didn't find this to be worth the power choice and endurance, since stuns and sleeps and double-stacked holds broke through it. 2) Mez them before they mez you. Learn which enemies have mezzes and control them first. Bosses, EBs, and AVs can still give you trouble though, or large groups where your 5% or higher chance to miss will often allow minion or lieutenant mezzers to take shots at you. 3) High defense against whatever mezzing enemies you tend to face. This is often ranged or AoE defense, but if you're in melee range of some enemies (Tsoo, Freaks, etc) then melee defense or smashing defense may be needed too. Unfortunately this is not always effective against Psi-type mezzes since they may bypass your ranged/AoE defense, such as Carnies and Council Vampyri. Indomitable Will has Psi Defense built-in though, so see #1a! 4) Mez resistance from special IOs, to reduce the duration of mezzes. Not effective by itself, but it does make low levels of mez protection (such as Clarion as it degrades) feel stronger by reducing the chance that mezzes will stack on you and overcome your protection. 5) a couple of Breakfrees, for when the above fails. From my experience, this is roughly in order of effectiveness for what you're asking to do. I currently use 1a, 2, 3, 4, and 5 together on a fire/kin and ill/rad, and to a lesser extent on a plant/storm. It's not cheap or simple, but it works and I never buy breakfrees. You also have the option to try a dominator...with enough recharge to have perma domination, you'll get a similar (better?) un-mezzable controllery experience from the primary powerset, but of course the secondary powerset choices are very different. Good luck. |
Tanks: If you are on a team, let the Tank do his job and draw aggro before you run in to control/buff/damage. Give him 1-2 seconds, and if he is a decent tank, he will draw the aggro of those mezzing foes. Don't try to race the Tank to beat him into the next spawn (which I see often).
Stealth: I like to use Superspeed + Celerity Stealth IO for full invisibility. Foes don't aim Mez powers at me if they can't see me. There are a lot of ways to reduce the perception of foes (which I don't use) from Smoke to Stealth. Invisibility also lets me run around the outside of groups, dragging my Imps into the group to draw aggro . . . so they get mezzed and not me. Then I can use Flashfire from range or even run in and use Cinders with less danger of being mezzed.
Timing IW. Sometimes it is more effective, if you can remember, to take IW off Auto and use it as a click power. If you fire it off just before an encounter, then your chance of getting mezzed is pretty low unless the encounter goes on for a while.
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Bolded for emphasis. So many of the 'problems' seen on the forum can be 'solved' with this one simple suggestion.
| Tanks: If you are on a team, let the Tank do his job and draw aggro before you run in to control/buff/damage. Give him 1-2 seconds, and if he is a decent tank, he will draw the aggro of those mezzing foes. Don't try to race the Tank to beat him into the next spawn (which I see often). |
Mezz first... it sounds so simple, Why couldn't I have thought of that myself?
Maybe it's because my Mezz doesn't work like it used to. If I fight a more classic opponents, say from the portals in PI my Mezz seems to work like it's supposed to. Flashfire gets 95% of them and you can char the rest.
But compare that to LGTF or ITF opponents. now my mezz doesn't work worth **** . Flashfire at best hits 3/4 of them or less. Char and cindars NEVER Hold bosses unless I'm extremely lucky or I've put like 6 applications of char on them ( assuming I don't die before then). Now move on up to APEX and MAGE opponents... all bets are off.
I do run +4/8 AE farms but I've used a highly selective opponents that can't sleep or hold anything.
I've noticed a few fire/kins using tough & weave and earth mastery... I've never tried such a build. how does that type of setup fair for sleep/holds?
Well, it's very impressive to do +4 x8, especially on a squishy. You may be expecting too much. The Apex opponents are supposed to be hard. The ITF Romans resist your mezz once they've activated a power, I believe -- try mezzing them by complete surprise before they can activate it.
It's not too hard to mezz a few opponents, especially when you open up on them before they're aggroed. More opponents implies more teammates, and they can help you with those, or that you've turned up the difficulty...which may be more difficult.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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You're absolutely right, it's all about "luck", mezzes work totally differently when you do a LGTF and I clearly don't know a thing about controllers. I guess those All Controller Master of Apex's I've run are figments of my imagination because there is no way that mezzes work on Apex. |
Originally Posted by OutaControl
Mezz first... it sounds so simple, Why couldn't I have thought of that myself?
Maybe it's because my Mezz doesn't work like it used to. If I fight a more classic opponents, say from the portals in PI my Mezz seems to work like it's supposed to. Flashfire gets 95% of them and you can char the rest. But compare that to LGTF or ITF opponents. now my mezz doesn't work worth **** . Flashfire at best hits 3/4 of them or less. Char and cindars NEVER Hold bosses unless I'm extremely lucky or I've put like 6 applications of char on them ( assuming I don't die before then). Now move on up to APEX and MAGE opponents... all bets are off. I do run +4/8 AE farms but I've used a highly selective opponents that can't sleep or hold anything. I've noticed a few fire/kins using tough & weave and earth mastery... I've never tried such a build. how does that type of setup fair for sleep/holds? |
If you want advice that's helpful in the world outside of "being highly selective of your opponents" maybe don't be so snarky next time someone takes time out of their day to teach you something. If not, just continue saving the world and clicking on bombs.
Long live Captain Outhouse!
@Mental Maden @Maden Mental
"....you are now tackle free for life."-ShoNuff
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I still contend if you're looking to find "mez defense" for a Controller in any form other than proper Controller tactics you're playing it wrong. Like trying to pound a square peg into a round hole type of wrong.|
Originally Posted by OutaControl
Mezz first... it sounds so simple, Why couldn't I have thought of that myself?
Maybe it's because my Mezz doesn't work like it used to. If I fight a more classic opponents, say from the portals in PI my Mezz seems to work like it's supposed to. Flashfire gets 95% of them and you can char the rest. But compare that to LGTF or ITF opponents. now my mezz doesn't work worth **** . Flashfire at best hits 3/4 of them or less. Char and cindars NEVER Hold bosses unless I'm extremely lucky or I've put like 6 applications of char on them ( assuming I don't die before then). Now move on up to APEX and MAGE opponents... all bets are off. I do run +4/8 AE farms but I've used a highly selective opponents that can't sleep or hold anything. I've noticed a few fire/kins using tough & weave and earth mastery... I've never tried such a build. how does that type of setup fair for sleep/holds? |
From what you've said it sounds to me like you are either trying to play a Controller like a Tank/Brute/Scrapper or you've just gotten way too used to AE farming where you can stack the deck with any kind of MOB you want. You've got to get over the idea that Controllers can be "protected" from mezs the same way other ATs can. Basically it's like you're trying to play tennis with a baseball bat - you can do it, but you aren't going to be able to do it very well.
Please try some of the suggestions that have been mentioned on this thread by other posters. As soon as you stop trying to force your Controller to do something it was never meant to you'll likely have a lot more fun with it. I've run my Controllers up against mez-heavy PvE enemies for years and I almost never get mezzed and I basically never use Breakfrees for anything other than PvP. I don't have a super-secret mez defense builds either. The only mez defense you actually need is the willingness to play your Controller like a Controller.
Once again good luck to you on this.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
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Seriously. While I did have issues with being held with my controller, My Grav/FF controller has dispursion bubble, which protects against some mezzes, Holds, Imobs, Stun, however sleep goes right through it.
However Rad is aggro-ish
1) I do bring a few purples with me
2) Please do not open up with an AOE Imob. Anything that can mez will mez you. On a team, let the tank take the aggro. Go through the names of the enemies and mez the mezzer once you do not have their attention. Hit with your hold, and then the single target imob. Then fire off you hold againg. The single one.
Actually to emphasise this. "NEVER" open with an AOE Imob! Solo, it's ok but still not "Really" all that ok. But you need to lockdown the enemy that is the most threat to you and in this case it's mezzers. So hit them first. It might take a few seconds to analyze the playing field.
3) Acrobatics will prevent some hold, but really and truthfully, not enough, although it will help. Other defenses are probably a little better suited. The Leadership pool can prevent you from being hit by mez attacks. So it's definately viable.
4) Stealth. While not going to offer you a ton of options generally it will allow you to watch the battle safely, allowing you to isolate your threat.
Tips for Rad...
I hate anchors! I really do. But people always seem to place em on the worst baddie. If Solo, I considdering that a mistake. Your job should be mezzing that Dude/Lady, using your single target hold, then using the AOE imob. While they are bunched together, hit a weaker target with the anchor. Focus then on the mezzer or main threat. Then focus on the alternates. Then use the anchor again on the big guy/girl if he is still standing.
Against Malta? Well. I dunno. I get frustrated with them on my defender. The only defence I can really suggest is hover (For knockback suppression) and Manuevers to a avoid things as it does have a defense to all.
Also, Look at the sets you want to buy. I tooks GW's Embrace because it offered defenses against mezzezZZZzzz, and it helps a lot. I also would suggest looking at your hold sets. Many hold sets even lower level, while somewhat expensive can offer some mez protection, or lower the duration of those effects. Im not sure what available in the debuff catagory, but I think it's safe to assume they might have something available. As a controller these things can really make a difference.
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How do you have Flashfire and Cinders slotted? Are you aware that all Controllers AOE mezzes have a -20% accuracy penalty? Are you covering that?|
Originally Posted by OutaControl
But compare that to LGTF or ITF opponents. now my mezz doesn't work worth **** . Flashfire at best hits 3/4 of them or less. Char and cindars NEVER Hold bosses unless I'm extremely lucky or I've put like 6 applications of char on them ( assuming I don't die before then). Now move on up to APEX and MAGE opponents... all bets are off.
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As for the LGTF, as far as I'm aware, Rikti don't have any mez protection. They do throw a lot of it to you though. So you must be proactive and neutralize the mezzers first. Put Radiation Infection on the boss before using Flashfire. Or, you know, wait until the meleers go in. You are playing along side team mates, right?
As for the ITF, I believe the Cimerorans are specifically the Controller's bane in this game. You can't play as usual against them because pretty much all the usual controls are useless. The best control to bring to Cimerora is a stormy. However, Cimerorans have no mezzers, so you can't use them as an example for your lack of mez protection. Playing an Emp on the ITF is so relaxing for me because I don't need to cast Clear Mind all the time (which I usually do so there's no down time for it on my team mates).
Which brings up another point, find an Emp who understands what you need and is willing to do it for you and the rest of the team.
Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
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Opening with an AOE immob is the same as casting a taunt for up to the aggro cap (17 enemies) that says "kill me now!" Compared with a Tanks's taunt which says "come to me!" and only hits 5 enemies.
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Originally Posted by Nyx
Actually to emphasise this. "NEVER" open with an AOE Imob!
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Teams are the number one killer of soloists.
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Well. The key thing I find is layering. I know...thats not rocket science, but the group "Hold" not the imob really helps build mags. It really does and although it's slow, if you slot it right, you can really have it up enough to help lock down things. I 6 slotted mine and it's up nearly every battle and does the trick (Although I am working grav not fire). Then I use imobs and holds on a single target and I can get them slow, and sometimes held if just briefly. |
Originally Posted by SerialBeggar
As for the ITF, I believe the Cimerorans are specifically the Controller's bane in this game. You can't play as usual against them because pretty much all the usual controls are useless. The best control to bring to Cimerora is a stormy. However, Cimerorans have no mezzers, so you can't use them as an example for your lack of mez protection. Playing an Emp on the ITF is so relaxing for me because I don't need to cast Clear Mind all the time (which I usually do so there's no down time for it on my team mates).
. |
I also suggest slotting something like (Trap of the Hunter +2 Mag hold) on your single target and Group Imob. These will help increase your holding power, again even if brief. They are not that expensive.
If you have range attacks from the epic pool, then slot (Devastation or it could be Decimation ((I always get them mixed up)) which is another chance for a hold. I have it on my Fire Blast, and my propel and my lift, and it triggers enough because these are fast attacks. Plus Purple lightning bubble is always ammusing.
This works for me, and while you might not have as many range attacks, placing these holds do help build mags, or appear too, unless Gravity somehow has a higher holding potential than anything else.
I guess my complaint is that CoH is over compensating. Like all game progressions, just make things not work and call it new and inventive content.
a spine/regen scrapper used to be all the rage, I hate mine now.
a fire/kin controller was all the rage but Mine sleeps though half the content now.
an Empathy healer could write his own ticket, it was my first level 50, I can hardly find work for mine, only STF seems to even want one. with instant death one-shotting bosses why bother with a good healer since no healer can save you from the one shot death
The game has gravitated away from squishy characters, the AE farms want tanks and tough scrappers and don't even bother bringing a healer.
Squishy teams can still work, an all rad team still rocks but I find playing a katana/willpower scrapper much more fun since I can almost tank with him and he never sleeps on the job. I like playing the scrapper more than tanking because as a tank, if I can't hold aggro I feel like I'm letting people down and the tank aggro limit is VERY easy to reach in ITF or LGTF.
how can I build up protection against sleep and hold for say a fire/kin or fire/rad controller?
I've tried the psionic mastery "Indomitable will" which gives a non buffable amount of (stun/sleep/hold/confuse/terror) protection 1:30 and with max recharge that leaves you unprotected for 1:30 assuming you have auto-cast on. imo this is so-so at best and a 1/4 second sleep is just as bad as a 10 sec sleep because your toggles are still down.
I can run a TF with say my ill/kin and never sleep once through the a whole TF but once I bring a character with either "hot feet" and/or "choking cloud" they sleep on the job all the time or are being held.
Please don't tell me to bring "break frees", I can use 20 on a single TF mission and you can't keep running back for more while on a TF. ( for AE mission I can see doing that ). Is there an equivalent tot he Karma knockback protection but for sleep and hold?